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The changing daylight hours thread

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Loving this change in the light levels,so much more atmospheric with the long shadows,lower sun. What better way to have a journey into work that watch a sunrise and then journey home watch it setting,perfect!:)

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There is something about the dark at half past 5 in the morning then 5 at night (that's when I walk the dogs) the lengthening shadows of the sun. Best time of year for me

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We are all different but for me I hate the dark evenings graduating into the dark afternoons of mid winter. 

Many years ago when my children were still quite small we did have, as an experiment for a year, BST - I relished every single minute of that extra light in the evenings and would dearly love to return to that situation.

As an aside I recall 'Paddy' saying once during one autumn, "Ah to be sure, it's getting much later earlier these days" - I love that way of phrasing it - it is almost poetic if you understand what I mean but the fact still remains that as the next three months pass I will be getting increasingly depressed until finally the glimmer of hope arrives at the other side when the days are noticeably getting longer again.

How the hell the people in Tromso get on with their two months of perpetual darkness I just don't know. 

On the other hand, especially when we have nice clear weather, I really love the way the twilight lingers until close to 11 pm with a wonderful shades of blue, gradually deepening. 

Well unless we are fortunate enough and rich enough to do a transhumance from one side of the globe to the other every 6 months we will just have to put up with it.

Edited by mike Meehan

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22 minutes ago, mike Meehan said:

..............we did have, as an experiment for a year, BST - I relished every single minute of that extra light in the evenings and would dearly love to return to that situation.

That experiment ran between Spring 1968 and Autumn 1971 and was an unmitigated disaster with many schoolchildren knocked down by half-awake drivers in the dark.

 What about the icy roads we had to navigate to go to work before the sun rose?  I had to do that on two wheels, not fun.  In Glasgow the sun didn't rise until about 10am due to the elevated horizon of the Southern Uplands.

I wish people would realise that in midwinter we only have about eight hours of daylight however much we muck about with the clocks.  Under GMT most of us go to work in the light, as do schoolchildren going to school while with school finishing around 3pm, schoolkids still go home in the daylight.

Edited by Wildswimmer Pete
Grammar

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3 hours ago, Wildswimmer Pete said:

That experiment ran between Spring 1968 and Autumn 1971 and was an unmitigated disaster with many schoolchildren knocked down by half-awake drivers in the dark.

 What about the icy roads we had to navigate to go to work before the sun rose?  I had to do that on two wheels, not fun.  In Glasgow the sun didn't rise until about 10am due to the elevated horizon of the Southern Uplands.

I wish people would realise that in midwinter we only have about eight hours of daylight however much we muck about with the clocks.  Under GMT most of us go to work in the light, as do schoolchildren going to school while with school finishing around 3pm, schoolkids still go home in the daylight.

I seem to recall now that the reason it was never adopted was particularly because of that complaint by the Scots - as far as I am aware most of the country was in favour of it.

As far as travelling on two wheels was concerned I had to do plenty of that - it is called adapting to the conditions and is first class training in observing the road conditions - however, I did come off once with my now wife as a pillion when riding over a snow covered road, the front wheel struck a patch underlain with ice. We were travelling slow at the time and no damage to the bike or ourselves.

I don't know how you manage to get as much as 8 hours daylight in Scotland when in midwinter it's about 7 hours 50 minutes for us down in the south east and as I said in my original post what about the people in Tromso?

For the early shifts I used to start at 0600 hours, so it was dark - for the nights 2200 to 0600 hours it was dark both ways, got to bed whilst it was still dark and when I got up it was getting dark - ma week of that with little normal daylight can get quite depressing.   

It is as broad as it is long - with the current system it means very often that people are driving to walk in the mornings and driving home also in the dark which increases the hazards on the roads. 

Scotland, especially the more western parts sustained the later sunrises and I can appreciate the problem but the local school times could have been adjusted  to suit - I wouldn't mind betting, depending on the distance of travel that some school children in Glasgow would be returning home with at part of their journey in the dark.

We are never going to satisfy all the people with this - there are pros and cons on both sides but for most I would not say it was the unmitigated disaster as you describe. 

http://www.theweek.co.uk/61009/when-do-the-clocks-go-back

Edited by mike Meehan

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Aye Mike, the original 'findings' apparently came about because folks looked for what they'd expected to happen - an increase in the number of accidents prior to 9 a.m. 

What they didn't find - because they weren't looking for it - was the even greater reduction in accidents occurring after school.

If anyone wants to see the data simply google ROSPA.:D

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The thing that always get me is the twaddle argument that the tourist trade will get a boost if we stay with BST all year.

What determines the tourist trade in this country has always been the WEATHER!!!! Who wants to go to Blackpool in February with a howling gale blowing just because the sun sets an hour later with BST.

 

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On 23/09/2017 at 12:01, Wildswimmer Pete said:

That experiment ran between Spring 1968 and Autumn 1971 and was an unmitigated disaster with many schoolchildren knocked down by half-awake drivers in the dark.

 What about the icy roads we had to navigate to go to work before the sun rose?  I had to do that on two wheels, not fun.  In Glasgow the sun didn't rise until about 10am due to the elevated horizon of the Southern Uplands.

I wish people would realise that in midwinter we only have about eight hours of daylight however much we muck about with the clocks.  Under GMT most of us go to work in the light, as do schoolchildren going to school while with school finishing around 3pm, schoolkids still go home in the daylight.

Hear hear! The proponents of all round BST don't seem to realise we're not magically making an extra hour of daylight appear, it would make mornings in December horrendous.

We have this argument pop up every year, and then we just accept it and get on with it. Thankfully I don't think it will ever change. Getting dark at 4.30pm is better than it remaining dark until 9.30am.

And as for BST+1 in summer, that's just as an absurd idea. Still light at 11pm in high summer? No thank you! It's difficult enough sleeping during hot spells as it is.

Edited by Nick L

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11 minutes ago, Nick L said:

Hear hear! The proponents of all round BST don't seem to realise we're not magically making an extra hour of daylight appear, it would make mornings in December horrendous.

We have this argument pop up every year, and then we just accept it and get on with it. Thankfully I don't think it will ever change. Getting dark at 4.30pm is better than it remaining dark until 9.30am.

And as for BST+1 in summer, that's just as an absurd idea. Still light at 11pm in high summer? No thank you! It's difficult enough sleeping during hot spells as it is.

Maybe you should have a wee look at the facts, Nick?

https://www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/road-users/british-summertime-fact-sheet/

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The problem with this argument is all about 3 or 4 weeks around the winter solstice.During this time kids have 2 weeks off school so it really is a very short time in the morning when light is late to appear and even in my part of the country the light appears very quickly at 08.00 .Yes there will be some weeks it will be dark with Bst but what massive gains we will have come late January to late March which will more than make up for it !

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As someone who works outside all year around the thought of having no daylight till after 9am in November/December/January even here in Plymouth fills me with dread! 

Ok I can see that daylight until at worst 5pm would be an advantage but this isn't a time of day or time of year when you could appreciate it. After all at 5pm I'd be driving home at that time of year and it wouldn't be a boost to the economy as who genuinely gets to 20th January for example and would think "let's all meet for a drink in the local pub garden. Not many. Most people are limping to payday.

How about double summer time instead?

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16 minutes ago, hillbilly said:

The problem with this argument is all about 3 or 4 weeks around the winter solstice.During this time kids have 2 weeks off school so it really is a very short time in the morning when light is late to appear and even in my part of the country the light appears very quickly at 08.00 .Yes there will be some weeks it will be dark with Bst but what massive gains we will have come late January to late March which will more than make up for it !

And my wee bro was knocked-down at around 4:15 in the afternoon, when drivers' eyes were forever trying to keep up with diminishing light-levels. It really is that easy...?

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11 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

And my wee bro was knocked-down at around 4:15 in the afternoon, when drivers' eyes were forever trying to keep up with diminishing light-levels. It really is that easy...?

Whilst I'm sorry about your brother I can only look towards my personal knowledge as a Person who helps out around all 96 schools in my local authority. 

Most schools at Primary are now closing at 1515/1530 time with secondary all out at around 1530/1545 here.

Just a look at sunset times for say Great Yarmouth around 21 December and it's around 1538hrs. I think it's logical to say most primary school children would be home by the time of sunset. Secondary school perhaps not but it gives you some idea that I can remember being at school till 4pm even into the 1990s. Certainly doesn't happen these days.

There's always going to be diminished daylight on any day be it term time or not. Personally, make the start of day darker and you'll increase vechiles around schools. Making a currently difficult situation even worse something I have prolonged and bitter experience of trying to manage.

 

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9 minutes ago, philglossop said:

Whilst I'm sorry about your brother I can only look towards my personal knowledge as a Person who helps out around all 96 schools in my local authority. 

Most schools at Primary are now closing at 1515/1530 time with secondary all out at around 1530/1545 here.

Just a look at sunset times for say Great Yarmouth around 21 December and it's around 1538hrs. I think it's logical to say most primary school children would be home by the time of sunset. Secondary school perhaps not but it gives you some idea that I can remember being at school till 4pm even into the 1990s. Certainly doesn't happen these days.

There's always going to be diminished daylight on any day be it term time or not. Personally, make the start of day darker and you'll increase vechiles around schools. Making a currently difficult situation even worse something I have prolonged and bitter experience of trying to manage.

 

Yeah the school argument never really made sense to me either. Seeing as most schools are finished by 3:30pm, it should be light no matter what time of year surely? 

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1 minute ago, Nick L said:

Yeah the school argument never really made sense to me either. Seeing as most schools are finished by 3:30pm, it should be light no matter what time of year surely? 

It really doesn't matter what you, or I, happen to think, Nick - the data speak for themselves - any increase in morning-time accidents was more than offset by the evening-time reduction...?

Simples!:D

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3 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

It really doesn't matter what you, or I, happen to think, Nick - the data speak for themselves - any increase in morning-time accidents was more than offset by the evening-time reduction...?

Simples!:D

The data "fact" sheet from Rospa just seemed confused, contradictory and included a study from nearly 50 years ago. I don't buy it for a second I'm afraid. 

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It may seem like a minor point but the fact that we refer to 12:00 pm and 12:00 am as midday and midnight respectively makes me feel quite defensive of GMT as the real time in this country anyway (ok granted this only truly works if your bang on the meridian constantly but you've got to draw the line somewhere, no pun intended), with BST being a bit of a farce as it forces us to refer to it as midday or midnight an hour before it actually is. I do however appreciate how late it gets dark during the midsummer period, but really that extra light should be measured early in the morning and it certainly would have been the historical experience to do so before BST was adopted. I do wish though that we gave equal length to both time systems with each at 6 months, rather than the 7 for BST and only 5 for GMT as we have now. Under such a hypothetical system the clocks could have gone back today, been as it's the last Sunday of September instead of waiting until the last Sunday in October, after all it's called British Summer Time and Summer's over now by both the meteorological and astronomical definitions . Or alternatively we could assign the last Sunday in April instead of March as when we put the clocks forward, but I'd prefer the former.  Another thing is where does it end with this push to abolish the real time all year round anyway. There would always be those who want to keep on pushing an hour forward. Maybe only when all the hours of Winter daylight are pushed into the evening time slot perhaps. 

Edited by Walsall Wood Snow

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Generally, the coldest part of the day is just before dawn, if the mornings remained dark until 9am in December, no doubt it would lead to more accidents on the roads, there would be alot more ice on the roads, and it would take much longer to clear through the morning as well, January mornings would be much more prone to lingering fog, frost/ice problems, indeed there is a time lag, and mornings in early part of January probably wouldn't get light until nearer half 9.. the ground retains some heat from the day well into early evening unlike the mornings.

Edited by damianslaw

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4 minutes ago, damianslaw said:

Generally, the coldest part of the day is just before dawn, if the mornings remained dark until 9am in December, no doubt it would lead to more accidents on the roads, there would be alot more ice on the roads, and it would take much longer to clear through the morning as well, January mornings would be much more prone to lingering fog, frost/ice problems, indeed there is a time lag, and mornings in early part of January probably wouldn't get light until nearer half 9.. the ground retains some heat from the day well into early evening unlike the mornings.

Being familiar with the gritting industry and the decision making process, unless there has been a complete failure in procedure or sudden inclement weather, roads should not be iced up regardless of time.

Besides, road temperatures can easily remain below zero until 9-10am in the middle of winter even under GMT, and in some locations they can remain below zero all day.

Edited by Nick L

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13 minutes ago, Nick L said:

Being familiar with the gritting industry and the decision making process, unless there has been a complete failure in procedure or sudden inclement weather, roads should not be iced up regardless of time.

Besides, road temperatures can easily remain below zero until 9-10am in the middle of winter even under GMT, and in some locations they can remain below zero all day.

When you say "Roads" I take it you mean main roads only?

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15 minutes ago, DAVID SNOW said:

When you say "Roads" I take it you mean main roads only?

But the statistics are what they are: BST all year round is safer for the wee-uns...What can be more important than that??:cc_confused:

Edited by Ed Stone

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Love it when it's dark by 4pm. Gives me eight hours of darkness to enjoy before I go to bed. It's great.

Edited by Relativistic

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11 hours ago, Ed Stone said:

Maybe you should have a wee look at the facts, Nick?

https://www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/road-users/british-summertime-fact-sheet/

"health benefits, the latter being particularly relevant to public health concerns about obesity."

Weak argument, IMO

For a start, its out dietary patterns of today that is a problem. How many fast food places are they now compared to 30 years?

More children are on the internet for longer, playing computer games etc

As I have said before, outdoor activity is dictated by the weather not the time the sun rises and sets. further to that, people out til 10.30pm during midsummer with GMT + 2?

 

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9 hours ago, DAVID SNOW said:

When you say "Roads" I take it you mean main roads only?

Fair point. But even under GMT, road temperatures will still be below zero on a cold morning for a good couple of hours. 

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2 hours ago, Weather-history said:

 

As I have said before, outdoor activity is dictated by the weather not the time the sun rises and sets. further to that, people out til 10.30pm during midsummer with GMT + 2?

 

I really don't like that idea. Certain areas have enough problems with anti social behaviour on summer evenings without it being light until a silly hour. 

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