New Met Office Weather Station - Where Would You Put It?

[Terminal Moraine]

yep it replaced the one at Ringway/Manchester Airport

Of course! I should have remembered as it's in Weather magazine's 'weather log' every month.

[SunnySouthCoast]

I would have one put back in Southsea, as our one was closed in 2006. It had been there since 1890

[Interitus]

Yup, in December 2010 I saw -14c, 15c and -17c on a car thermometer (as inaccurate as they can be) near Dovedale, not too far from me, on three separate mornings. In contrast, I don't believe it dropped below -10c at the nearest Met Office station in Leek in December 2010. The dales here are really quite steep and narrow compared to most other 'frost hollow' locations and some north-south orientated dales receive no sun until early afternoon in the winter, so I've often seen temperature differences between the tops and dales being as much as 11c on sunny spring mornings. Again, that's according to the car.

There was once a Met Office station further down the valley as I remember the date record being broken on a day in December 2010, the location of the original record being Mayfield, Staffordshire set sometime in the early 20th century. I've got no idea what's happened to the station though.

The nearest frost hollow station is all the way over in Shawbury, Shropshire. I'm quite sure it's often colder in local valleys here, alas we'll never know for sure.

Well unfortunately that would probably preclude those locations from having an official met station on the grounds of breaching WMO guidelines on representativeness.

It is suggested that "synoptic observations should typically be representative of an area up to 100 km around the station, but for small-scale or local applications the considered area may have dimensions of 10 km or less"

and "Sites on steep slopes or in hollows are subject to exceptional conditions and should be avoided"

This goes for all these frost hollows that (predictably!) people are choosing.

However in the main the lowest temperatures haven't been recorded in upland locations, not because of lack of stations but because the conditions that best allow pooling of cool air affect large areas of lowland England whereas suitable high ground areas are typically limited in extent and too undulating in topography. Sure, upland stations are colder on average but the lowest temperatures in extreme cold conditions have all been at relatively low elevations.

The only real exception to this has been the Grampians in Scotland where there is a significant area of high ground which has allowed low temperatures particularly on Deeside and Speyside.

[Aaron]

Nobody suggested that the lowest temperatures occur on high ground? What I'm suggesting is it'd be nice to have some stations in northern frost hollows, high elevation to be more specific. Places like Braemar are high-elevation frost hollows, situated in a valley 200-odd meters above sea level. Cairngorn Summit didn't even fell below -11C in December 2010.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Aaron

[Alex95]

Nobody suggested that the lowest temperatures occur on high ground? What I'm suggesting is it'd be nice to have some stations in northern frost hollows, high elevation to be more specific. Places like Braemar are high-elevation frost hollows, situated in a valley 200-odd meters above sea level. Cairngorn Summit didn't even fell below -11C in December 2010.

I find it fascinating how that can happen! Braemar itself is actually 340m asl.

If you follow the A93 eastwards to Ballater and then Aboyne you'll find that very cold temperatures can be recorded all the way along. Often Aboyne or Ballater are the coldest place in the UK

[Interitus]

Nobody suggested that the lowest temperatures occur on high ground? What I'm suggesting is it'd be nice to have some stations in northern frost hollows, high elevation to be more specific. Places like Braemar are high-elevation frost hollows, situated in a valley 200-odd meters above sea level. Cairngorn Summit didn't even fell below -11C in December 2010.

Braemar is well above 200-odd metres - try 339 metres, and is not a frost hollow as such, it is in a big, wide, flat, high-elevation valley. As I explained frost hollows are supposed to be avoided by official meteorological agencies as they represent micro-scale variations.

It's clear that the idea is to discover some extreme low temperature locations, but the evidence is that the lowest temperatures are where the cool air can build up in sufficient quantity which is generally in the lowest parts of a region. It just so happens that Braemar and upper Deeside, even though quite high relatively speaking, is the lowest part of quite a large area.

edit: now if you're asking for a location for extreme low temperatures, you want to forget about high altitude valleys - the cold air drains away - what you want to look into is a sinkhole - possible a corrie might suffice. The idea is that the micro-climate allows an extreme localised temperature inversion to become established.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Interitus

[Alex]

I would put one in Chelmsford Essex and move the other useless ones in Essex ie Andrewsfield - a pointless airfield site 150m above sea level.

Also the Olympics site would be a decent one, I know they now have one but it isn't an official Meto one, I don't think?

The reason behind my choices is that Essex and East London are one of the warmest areas of the country and the area is vastly under recognised.

[Interitus]

I would put one in Chelmsford Essex and move the other useless ones in Essex ie Andrewsfield - a pointless airfield site 150m above sea level.

Also the Olympics site would be a decent one, I know they now have one but it isn't an official Meto one, I don't think?

The reason behind my choices is that Essex and East London are one of the warmest areas of the country and the area is vastly under recognised.

There has been a site at Writtle college since 1940 - a mile west of Chelmsford.

edit: regarding the Olympic site - there are two stations there. For some reason the data doesn't appear widely anymore, but the stations are still active.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Interitus

[Alex]

There has been a site at Writtle college since 1940 - a mile west of Chelmsford.

edit: regarding the Olympic site - there are two stations there. For some reason the data doesn't appear widely anymore, but the stations are still active.

Yes you're right but it's not officially on the Meto website and I cannot backdate and look at any other dates which is plain stupid. It would make sense to move the Writtle site into the town centre where it's often 2c warmer thanks to the urban heat effect.

Again would be nice for the Meto to place an official site on the Olympics, London is only represented by Heathrow, Northolt and Kenley. Why isn't the centre represented ?

[Aaron]

What happened to Greenwich weather station? Oh, there's one at Kew too.

[Interitus]

Yes, and also St James Park, Hampstead, Barking and aviation data from London City airport.

Just have to look further than the Met office web site.

If you want one in Chelmsford you could always start your own and get it accredited by the Met - like the Strathspey weather station at Cromdale.

[johnholmes]

Yes you're right but it's not officially on the Meto website and I cannot backdate and look at any other dates which is plain stupid. It would make sense to move the Writtle site into the town centre where it's often 2c warmer thanks to the urban heat effect.

Again would be nice for the Meto to place an official site on the Olympics, London is only represented by Heathrow, Northolt and Kenley. Why isn't the centre represented ?

cost perhaps?

who pays for it, setting it up and keeping it going?

[Alex]

cost perhaps?

who pays for it, setting it up and keeping it going?

Oh no doubt there is cost implications, take it out of the pot that provides free houses and cars for asylum seekers lol!

On a more serious note though alot of the Meto sites seem to be outside towns and cities, I can understand the logic that an urban heat effect occurs but the majority of the population live in towns and cities so why not have some?

Also Ive never understood why some sites like Writtle which are Meto accredited, aren't put on the website so we can check the hourly reports. There must be a reason?

[Interitus]

On a more serious note though alot of the Meto sites seem to be outside towns and cities, I can understand the logic that an urban heat effect occurs but the majority of the population live in towns and cities so why not have some?

Also Ive never understood why some sites like Writtle which are Meto accredited, aren't put on the website so we can check the hourly reports. There must be a reason?

The locations are largely historical - many of the stations are or were air force bases, as the Met Office was part of the Ministry of Defence for a long time. Other sites such as Writtle, Kew, Wisley etc are agricultural/horticultural establishments. Basically they're places that have a vested interest in knowing about the weather.

But there are also many urban stations as well, just that the data is not freely available, which leads on to your other point. The data can be accessed if you have education or research requirements, or are willing to pay for commercial usage.

edit: urban stations also run the risk of being smashed up by scrotes!

Edited March 2, 2012 by Interitus

[johnholmes]

as the Met Office was part of the Ministry of Defence for a long time.

still is as far as I am aware?

[Thundery wintry showers]

According to Wikipedia the Met Office was part of the Ministry of Defence until July 2011, then shifted to being part of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills:

http://en.wikipedia....stry_of_Defence

More information here:

http://www.clickgreen.org.uk/news/national-news/122350-uk-met-office-switches-departments-in-whitehall-shake-up.html

[johnholmes]

According to Wikipedia the Met Office was part of the Ministry of Defence until July 2011, then shifted to being part of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills:

http://en.wikipedia....stry_of_Defence

More information here:

http://www.clickgree...l-shake-up.html

I do believe you are correct Ian-old habits die hard and of course they still have the primary obligation to provide weather output to HM Forces whever they are.