Antarctic Ice Discussion

[Gray-Wolf]

Facts are simple, the antarctic is not warming and therefore the ice cannot be melting. Simples.

 

So all those seals in bathcaps are lying Mike? and all that data about the peninsula warming faster than anywhere on earth are lies? and the upper atmosphere is not warming as the NASA records show ( nearly down to the tops of the peaks on East Antarctica?) and we're not seeing melt , up to a mile up the transantarctic range ( behind Ross) since 05' over the summer months? and we're not noting changes in the dry valleys to the east of Mcmurdo?

 

So ,so many fibs eh? how can we tell the truth when all the facts are lies???

 

EDIT: Oh! and then there's that report of cooling at vostok?

 

EDIT:EDIT:

 

The 'not warming over the past 30 days;

 

 

EDIT:EDIT:EDIT;

 

or the past year?;

 

 

Edited December 15, 2013 by Gray-Wolf

[Styx]

When discussing albedo changes, it's necessary to take into account ice thickness and snow cover. Thinner ice is more transparent to light, and in June last year, while extent was negligibly below average, the ice was about 45% thinner than normal and northern hemisphere snow cover was 36% below average, reducing snow cover by 3.4 million km2.

 

The current Antarctic sea ice gain is a useful -ve feedback, but is dwarfed by the summer changes in the northern hemisphere.

 

Based on thinner ice in the Arctic is science or technology at a stage to calculate the reduction of light radiation that is going back into space? I am assuming the answer is probably no.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Styx

[Gray-Wolf]

Hi Styx! Didn't we see some Arctic research put the figure at 1m thick or less was letting 50% of the light through (allowing massive blooms on the bottom of the pack?)? That would suggest ( to me) that sub 1m ice only reflects 40% of the incoming?

[BornFromTheVoid]

Based on thinner ice in the Arctic is science or technology at a stage to calculate the reduction of light radiation that is going back into space? I am assuming the answer is probably no.

 

This presentation might be of use.

 

http://alaska.usgs.gov/geography/conference/presentations/Seward%20talk_tschudi.pdf

 

I think one way of measuring light radiation going back would be by measuring the heat. The thin ice and open water does allow for extra heat to escape from the ocean than thicker ice. I'd have to do some searching to see if the exact values for what's escaping to space have been calculated, but I'm sure someone has attempted the calculations.

Edited December 16, 2013 by BornFromTheVoid

[jonboy]

As people want to discuss the artic hear then

 

Data from Europe's Cryosat spacecraft suggests there were almost 9,000 cu km of ice at the end of this year's melt season.

This is close to 50% more than in the corresponding period in 2012.

It is a rare piece of good news for a region that has witnessed a rapid decline in both area cover and thickness in recent years.

[Coast]

Confusingly, sea ice, which grows in winter months and retreats in summer each year, has steadily been growing in Antarctica. In September, the end of the southern hemisphere's winter, the ice extended to 19.51m sq kms, breaking a 35-year record. This, said some climate contrarians, showed for a fact that global warming was not happening. But scientists elsewhere countered that the ice growth was probabaly being driven by the convergence of stronger winds near the south pole. Latest observations from Europe's ice-monitoring satellite, CryoSat, suggests that the west Antarctic ice sheet appears to be shedding far more ice than just a few years ago, from around 30bn tonnes a year in the 1990s to around 147bn tonnes a year now as major glaciers retreat.

 

Despite Antarctica's simultaneous warming and cooling phenomena, the second lowest temperatures ever measured on Earth was recorded in July at Dome Argus in the centre of the Antarctic plateau. The previous record low was -89.2C in 1983 at the Russian Vostok research station in east Antarctica. But a Nasa satellite this year detected an extraordinary -93.0C on July 10. This was marginally above the -93.2C recorded there in 2010*. Because neither temperature was measured on land, they will not be registered as official records.

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/dec/18/2013-extreme-weather-events

 

[Kiwi]

Looks icy to me.

 

My bro-in-law  enjoying an early xmas lunch on the ice

 

[knocker]

Looks icy to me.

 

My bro-in-law  enjoying an early xmas lunch on the ice

 

rhett.jpg

 

That's long trip. I see they are not due back until spring 2015.

[Gray-Wolf]

Been following the conversation on P.I.G. over on here;

 

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?topic=429.msg18009;boardseen#new

 

And it appears that the heavily fractured peninsula side of the glacier has started to give way. This is a worry if you feel the recent paper on the acceleration and collapse of P.I.G. , once it recedes back into the basin beyond the bottleneck, is close to the truth. The whole of that flank is badly crevassed and so could collapse, domino fashion, once it has created room at the front ( which it is in the process of doing). the last images shows the crevasse collapse now spreading into the centre of the main glacier front.

 

With the warmest part of the southern summer yet to come I feel this is worth watching as some collapses, as we saw with Larsen back in 02, can be both rapid and massive.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Gray-Wolf

[Kiwi]

That's long trip. I see they are not due back until spring 2015.

Ship stays but crew can shuttle in/out via flights to Falklands etc.

Bro in law due back for a few weeks in early Feb

[BurntFishTrousers]

A team of scientists and members of the public who have been retracing the footsteps of the Australian Antarctic Expedition of 1911 have become trapped in heavy ice a few miles from the coast of Antarctica.

 

Passengers aboard the ship, the MV Akademik Shokalskiy, were informed on Christmas morning that the captain had issued a distress call to the Maritime Service Authority based in Falmouth in the UK earlier in the day. Three nearby icebreaker ships have been notified of the Shokalskiy's situation and are on their way to help.

[Gray-Wolf]

Whoa!!! BFT!!! Good to see you down here!

 

Is it a calved ice shelf perchance?

[pottyprof]

The coldest ever temperature on Earth has been recorded as -94.7C in East Antarctica.

Scientists reviewed NASA satellite data which showed that temperatures dropped to -135.8F in August 2010.

According to the BBC, the previous record low was -89.2C, also measured in Antarctica.

"These very low temperatures are hard to imagine, I know," said Ted Scambos from the US National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder, Colorado.

"The new low is a good 50 degrees colder than temperatures in Alaska or Siberia, and about 30 degrees colder than the summit of Greenland."

 

 

http://travel.aol.co.uk/2013/12/10/antarctica-coldest-place-temperature-earth-extreme-weather/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cuk%7Cdl2%7Csec3_lnk1%26pLid%3D232890

[pottyprof]

Seems it's a bit cold down under...  

 

An icebreaker sent to rescue a ship of tourists stuck in Antarctica on Christmas Day is trapped en-route to the liner.

Chinese icebreaker Snow Dragon came within six and a half nautical miles of the Akademic Shokalskiy when it got stuck in ice.

An Australian Maritime Safety Authority official told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation: "It has encountered heavy ice and it's not safe for them to continue to the Russian vessel for their own safety.

 

 

http://travel.aol.co.uk/2013/12/28/chinese-icebreaker-trapped-ice-antarctica-ship/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cuk%7Cdl3%7Csec3_lnk4%26pLid%3D233171

 

What happened to the melt season and the warmer waters?

Edited December 29, 2013 by pottyprof

[knocker]

And our old friend Anthony has gone completely overboard ( well he would have done if it wasn't for the ice ) on this and not for the first time.

 

The really ugly side of Anthony Watts and his science deniers at WUWT

 

I've only been watching the antics at WUWT for a few months.  I occasionally went there before last year when someone at HotCopper copied and pasted some nonsense, but didn't hang around because it was so eminently dull and wrong.  Since I've been attempting to show up the stupid, I've come to know Anthony Watts and his regulars a bit better.One thing I've observed and been dismayed with is their really nasty side.  Anthony is not satisfied with smearing individual scientists, he takes delight in any misfortunes.  He takes special delight in any misfortunes of people who take dangerous journeys to inhospitable parts of the world in an effort to find out more about the world we live in - or for the sake of adventure.This past few days he has, with great glee, been writing about the Australasian Antarctic Expedition, with the ship stuck in ice.  (Anthony may have been gearing up to get in the mood of this article with a frenzy of tweets, insulting all and sundry and making little sense.  The juxtaposition of this tweet followed immediately by this one and then adding insult to injury to Gavin Schmidt after calling him "cowardly" was especially silly. Anthony doesn't frequent twitter that often except to tweet his blog articles, but when he does he tends to go berserk.)

Edited December 30, 2013 by knocker

[Southern Storm]

And our old friend Anthony has gone completely overboard ( well he would have done if it wasn't for the ice ) on this and not for the first time.The really ugly side of Anthony Watts and his science deniers at WUWT

I wouldn't say he has gone too far with this at all, if someone, whoever that is points out the hypocrisy of a bunch journalists on mission to tell us how we are changing the planet by Burning tons of Of co2, only to then go and drag other ships to rescue them, and throw in some helicopters for good measure. more power to them is all I can say! And the fact that you call out Watts on his so called ugly side rather than disprove any misinformation he has posted is quite telling! If The Truth Hurts Why Go Looking For It? On the plus side, sea ice is doing quite well Down south! Wouldn't you agree? Ps I don't agree with everything watts says but you'd have to have had your sense of humour surgically removed not see the funny side and the irony to this story Edited December 31, 2013 by Thunderman1981

[knocker]

I wouldn't say he has gone too far with this at all, if someone, whoever that is points out the hypocrisy of a bunch journalists on mission to tell us how we are changing the planet by Burning tons of

Of co2, only to then go and drag other ships to rescue them, and throw in some helicopters for good measure. more power to them is all I can say! And the fact that you call out Watts on his so called ugly side rather than disprove any misinformation he has posted is quite telling! If The Truth Hurts Why Go Looking For It?

On the plus side, sea ice is doing quite well Down south! Wouldn't you agree?

Ps I don't agree with everything watts says but you'd have to have had your sense of humour surgically removed not see the funny side and the irony to this story

 

I don't have a problem with having a wry smile about the circumstances or with anyone who has some pertinent scientific observations to make but as usual I draw the line at personal, venomous, attacks and deliberate inaccuracies. I note that's a problem you don't appear to have with, "the hypocrisy of a bunch journalists on mission".

 

I don't see the point of going through his post point for point as HP already has but you are perfectly entitled to rebut any of her observations of course. I will make one point though it has already been made.

 

 

In this especially nasty (and misleading) article Anthony wrote (archived here, update here, latest update here):

Then there’s the comedy of a scientific research expedition disguised as a junket for activists and reporters, such as this guy, tweeting up a storm from on-board:...

... The other fellow, Chris Turney, has some science credentials, but also has a propensity for wackadoodle alarmism as we see in this WUWT post: Now it’s 2°C climate change target ‘not safe’

Mostly, it’s a media sponsored event, presumably so they can tell us how terrible things are in Anarctica with melting and such:

 

To say Professor Turney has some scientific credentials is rather amusing coming from a chap who not got no further than being a weather presenter.

 

P.S. You'd have to have had your sense of humour surgically removed not see the funny side and the irony of that.

Edited December 31, 2013 by knocker

[knocker]

Latest.

 

 

SYDNEY: Most passengers and some crew from a scientific expedition ship stranded off Antarctica will be evacuated by helicopter to a Chinese icebreaker if weather conditions improve, Russia said on Monday.

 

Authorities decided to resort to the helicopter evacuation after the Aurora Australis rescue icebreaker was forced to retreat in the face of freezing winds and snow showers 10 nautical miles from the Russian-flagged MV Akademik Shokalskiy, which is stuck in an ice field.

 

 

Chris Turney, one of the leaders of the scientific expedition, said via Skype from the stranded ship that those on board were in good spirits and wanted their families and friends to know they were safe and well.

 

"It's Antarctica, we are just taking it one day at a time," he told AFP.

 

"The conditions are so extreme in Antarctica, you just never know. We are always hopeful."

 

Turney, who is professor of climate change at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, said satellite images indicated that their vessel had become stuck in ice which had broken away from a glacier.

 

The fierce winds had pushed it into an area of normally open sea, blocking the ship's progress, and this ice was now three to four metres thick in some places, although in others there were gaps with no ice.

 

"It's an unusual event that's happened," he said. "We were in the wrong place at the wrong time."

 

Turney had earlier tweeted that cracks were developing in the ice around the bow of the ship, something he hoped would help free the vessel.

 

The team onboard has been carrying out the same scientific experiments which Mawson's group conducted during the 1911-1914 expedition in the hope they could help in climate change research.

 

Several members of the team have already battled sea ice to reach the historic Mawson's Huts - built and occupied by the 1911-1914 expedition - which have been isolated for years by a giant iceberg.

 

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/antarctic-ship-passengers/938160.html

[4wd]

Why not read his piece rather than some trolling attack.I find it had to disagree with most of it.http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/12/30/the-antarctic-research-fiasco-would-you-could-you-in-a-boat/ 

 

 

People are realizing that there’s no real science being done on this trip, and that it seems to be little more than a chartered party boat for Antarctic enthusiasts and media.

Now, with the ship to be evacuated via helicopter, will the Akademik Shokalskiy join the list of recent ships that have been sunk in Antarctic waters?

 

 

 

Richard Tol @RichardTolThere has been a strong and statistically significant upward trend in climate-change-related public-relations disasters #spiritofmawson12:44 PM - 30 Dec 2013

 

[knocker]

Why not read his piece rather than some trolling attack.I find it had to disagree with most of it. 

 

I think you will find plenty of links to his site in the article. And the fact that you find it hard to disagree with most of it restores my faith in human nature.

[Devonian]

Why not read his piece rather than some trolling attack.I find it had to disagree with most of it.http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/12/30/the-antarctic-research-fiasco-would-you-could-you-in-a-boat/ 

 

Why do you just lap up what Watts tells you? Or are you trolling to get a response (which, darn it, you've managed...)?

[knocker]

I see it's now a conspiracy.

 

 

Now, with such a fantastic failure in full world view, questions are going to start being asked. For example, with advanced tools at their disposal (that Mawson never had) such as near real-time satellite imaging of Antarctic sea ice, GPS navigation, on-board Internet, radar, and satellite communications, one wonders how these folks managed to get themselves stuck at all. Was it simple incompetence of ignoring the signs and data at their disposal combined with “full steam ahead†fever? Even the captain of the Aurora Australis had the good sense to turn back knowing he’d reached the limits of the ship on his rescue attempt.  Or, was it some sort of publicity stunt to draw attention? If it was the latter, it has backfired mightil

 

Scientific expedition? Pah

 

 

And when the trip is nothing more than a party for your friends and media, disguised as a “scientific expeditionâ€, one wonders if there shouldn’t be some moratorium on such trips.

[Devonian]

I wouldn't say he has gone too far with this at all, if someone, whoever that is points out the hypocrisy of a bunch journalists on mission to tell us how we are changing the planet by Burning tons of

Of co2, only to then go and drag other ships to rescue them, and throw in some helicopters for good measure. more power to them is all I can say! And the fact that you call out Watts on his so called ugly side rather than disprove any misinformation he has posted is quite telling! If The Truth Hurts Why Go Looking For It?

On the plus side, sea ice is doing quite well Down south! Wouldn't you agree?

Ps I don't agree with everything watts says but you'd have to have had your sense of humour surgically removed not see the funny side and the irony to this story

 

The older I get the less impressed I am by trying to win an argument (well score points) by crying 'hypocrisy'. Besides it being to attack the person not the argument it's as if using the word suddenly means CO2 isn't a ghg, or we're not burning fossil fuels at an astonishing rate. Heck, it's almost as if it's a... distraction.

 

As for fun, I too laugh at Watts* - he's a real comic

 

*see, others can play the distracting attack the man game

[UV-RAY]

Personally I find it highly amusing how a bunch of freeloaders became stuck in ice that shouldn't have been there. Let this be a lesson boys and girls that Mother Nature doesn't give two hoots for political ideologies and hidden agendas. Antarctica ice is advancing if anything and obviously for it to advance then the waters around Antarctica must be colder now than previously.

[knocker]

Personally I find it highly amusing how a bunch of freeloaders became stuck in ice that shouldn't have been there. Let this be a lesson boys and girls that Mother Nature doesn't give two hoots for political ideologies and hidden agendas.

s advancing if anything and obviously for it to advance then the waters around Antarctica must be colder now than previously.

 

 

 

 

Personally I find it highly amusing how a bunch of freeloaders became stuck in ice that shouldn't have been there.

Passengers supporting the expedition.

 

http://www.spiritofmawson.com/aae-supporters/

 

 

Let this be a lesson boys and girls that Mother Nature doesn't give two hoots for political ideologies and hidden agendas.

 

Perhaps a little more detail on political ideologies and hidden agendas although a bit difficult with the latter as they are hidden. Which is more than be said of Watts. Anyway sticking to the facts and not fairy land the science case.

 

http://www.spiritofmawson.com/the-science-case/

 

 

Antarctica ice is advancing if anything and obviously for it to advance then the waters around Antarctica must be colder now than previously.

 

Congratulations are in order for the shortest, concise, scientific paper explaining the increase in sea ice.

Edited December 31, 2013 by knocker