Horse Chestnuts: Drought And Decay

[acbrixton]

From the main news story in today's Independant:

It appears that the early browning of HC leaves may not be entirely due to heat stress. Leaf miner moths whose larvae eat the leaves and bleeding canker which causes a dark liquid to ooze from spots on the trunk weakening branches (which drop off) and in time kill the tree are attacking HCs already weakened by drought/heat stress.

I saw this last we in Surrey where it was noticeable that only HC were severely browning.

This threatens to be the worst arboreal disaster since Dutch Elm disease in the early to mid 1970s (who can forget the chilling sight of dead Elm trees on the ridhes of Somerset hills in late spring/summer?).

With Sudden Oak Death (which kills Beech though not native Oak) and Gypsy Moth (which kills Oak and Poplar) we are left with Birch (on sandy soils such as the Bagshot Sands/Breckland) and Lime, London Plane. [Apart from the ugly Sycamore, which like the Victorian poor "will be always with us"].

Enough; I feel too miserable now.

Regards

ACB

[crimsone]

which kills Beech though not native Oak

Really? - http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pramorum

Susceptibility of Trees in Europe

Except where disease levels are intense on carrier hosts such as Rhododendron ponticum, P ramorum is unlikely to infect European species of oak (such as common or Pendunculate oak – Q. robur, or Sessile oak – Q. petraea), Laboratory tests on their relative susceptibility indicates that these species are more resistant than their American cousins. However, similar trials do suggest that other species such as Sweet chestnut (Castanea sativa) and beech (Fagus sylvatica) may be highly susceptible. Some conifer species such as Sitka spruce (Picea sitchensis) and Douglas fir (Psuedotsuga menziesii) may also be susceptible. Up until November 2003, the disease had not been found in any established trees anywhere in Europe although some young yew trees growing in pots in a nursery, were found to be infected. They had been growing next to infected Viburnum plants and shared a common irrigation system.

However, in November 2003, the first P.ramorum infected tree outside the USA was confirmed on a mature specimen of Quercus falcata in Sussex. Since then, the Dutch have confirmed infection on several Quercas rubra trees. By early December 2005 a range of tree species in Cornwall – beech, horse chestnut, sessile oak and sycamore have been found with potentially lethal infections.

Oak decline

In the UK, and elsewhere across Europe, there is already oak mortality and dieback of complex cause known as ‘oak decline’. This is fairly widespread; although individual pockets can be localised and intense. In some cases the decline is associated with infection by other Phytophthoras, but these are mainly root infecting species whereas P.ramorum causes stem cankers. Oak decline also involves recurrent episodes of drought, other root infecting fungi, repeated insect defoliation and scale insect attack.

Edited August 24, 2006 by crimsone

[acbrixton]

Really? - http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pramorum

Sorry I should have specified that American/European Oaks were affected by this disease as opposed to English Oak.

Regards

ACB

[Snowyowl9]

This has reared it`s ugly head again has it rhododendron spreads this disease to the trees as it`s the carrier, it needs to be destroyed it`s no good for nothing, this I don`t want to see,good thing that plant isn`t around here.

S9.

[crimsone]

Can we destroy the sycamore while we're at it? that needs to go too... ...And himilayan balsam - evil stuff.

Actually, I find it quite incredible that the government can consider declaring open season on badgers, but not on those plants above.

Edited August 24, 2006 by crimsone

[Snowyowl9]

Can we destroy the sycamore while we're at it? that needs to go too... ...And himilayan balsam - evil stuff.

Actually, I find it quite incredible that the government can consider declaring open season on badgers, but not on those plants above.

Why the sycamore?

S9.

[crimsone]

Sycamore isn't native to this country, and is incredibly invasive. In it's own right it can carry disease, but more importantly, it destroys an almost exponential amount of natural and semi-natural ancient woodland in the UK every year. In it's native country it's probablt fine, but in the UK it's a pest in much the same way that the grey squirrel its.

[acbrixton]

Sycamore isn't native to this country, and is incredibly invasive. In it's own right it can carry disease, but more importantly, it destroys an almost exponential amount of natural and semi-natural ancient woodland in the UK every year. In it's native country it's probablt fine, but in the UK it's a pest in much the same way that the grey squirrel its.

Well I knew it was invasive (every gardener in Syacamore areas knows it too) but I did not know it carried disease. In any event imo it is also a tremendously ugly tree.

Yes Rhododendrons can be a pest: desperate measures have been adopted near Snowdonia to stop it invading and destroying other plants' habitats.

I only realised yesterday that it also carried disease blighting Beech trees.

Not sure though that there is much to be gained by using the "non-natural species" argument: applied rigourously we would have precious few species (including Beech introduced by the Romans).

Regards

ACB

[Snowyowl9]

I knew it was an imported tree but I didn`t know that it carried disease either,we have alot of old sycamore trees here infact we have a wood of them,I certainly agree about the grey squirel is a pest to say the least,bring back the red squirel I say

They`ve had a rough time from the grey,and I`ve just heard the other day that about some virus from the grey to the red,they are still in parts of the country Scotland/parts of north wales :lol:

The grey ones also rip the bark off trees especially sycamore.

As far as disease is concered the rhododendrum,as I heard this over 1 year ago it`s the carrier and it spreads the disease to the beech especially,there are a few other spiecies,this importing is no good bringing disease in.

Squirrels are also imported/dutch elm disease I could go on.

:lol:

Beech is my favourite spieces too.

:lol:

I like all trees actually especially the broad leaf ones.

Sitka spruce was one of the low risk to get this disease.

S9

Edited August 25, 2006 by Snowyowl9

[peterf]

I knew it was an imported tree but I didn`t know that it carried disease either,we have alot of old sycamore trees here infact we have a wood of them,I certainly agree about the grey squirel is a pest to say the least,bring back the red squirel I say

They`ve had a rough time from the grey,and I`ve just heard the other day that about some virus from the grey to the red,they are still in parts of the country Scotland/parts of north wales :lol:

The grey ones also rip the bark off trees especially sycamore.

As far as disease is concered the rhododendrum,as I heard this over 1 year ago it`s the carrier and it spreads the disease to the beech especially,there are a few other spiecies,this importing is no good bringing disease in.

Beech is my favourite spieces too.

:lol:

wev'e got the reds back up here in co durham,thanks to a tollerance of the greys,SHOOT TO KILL :lol:

[crimsone]

Well, Sycamore doesn't really carry disease. It was a bad choice of words on my part. They are very susceptable to disease though, and can spread it widely. Anthracnose is one such disease.

Not sure though that there is much to be gained by using the "non-natural species" argument: applied rigourously we would have precious few species (including Beech introduced by the Romans).

Actually, there's a lot to be gained. Woodland isn't just an area of various trees - it's an entire self sustaining ecosystem. A natural ancient woodland is such an established system. Introduce a sycamore to it, and the whole balance is upset, and the whole system eventually destroyed, meaning the woodland will eventually dissapear - along with all those native species the woodland supports, and associated wildlife and fungus.

Semi natural ancient woodland is woodland that hasn't been too badly damaged, but none the less has been disturbed significantly. Sycamore has the same effect here too. Any professional woodlander will say the same thing.

we have alot of old sycamore trees here infact we have a wood of them

Check the history of that piece of land going back a few hundred hears. You will likely find that someone either planted that wood or an oricginating tree that became a wood, or that there used to be natural woodland there.

Edited August 25, 2006 by crimsone

[Snowyowl9]

wev'e got the reds back up here in co durham,thanks to a tollerance of the greys,SHOOT TO KILL :lol:

Yes they do get shot around here not that many about here now more rabbits than anything.

I did see 1 the other day tho.

Crimsone they were planted.

:lol:

How do you reply like you just did 2 or 3 times on the same reply :lol:

S9

Edited August 25, 2006 by Snowyowl9

[acbrixton]

Actually, there's a lot to be gained. Woodland isn't just an area of various trees - it's an entire self sustaining ecosystem. A natural ancient woodland is such an established system. Introduce a sycamore to it, and the whole balance is upset, and the whole system eventually destroyed, meaning the woodland will eventually dissapear - along with all those native species the woodland supports, and associated wildlife and fungus.

Agreed: what I was trying (rather poorly) to argue is that whether or not a species is native is not really the point. The problems with Sycamore arise from its suceptibility to disease and invasive habit.

Regards

ACB

[Cheeseburger]

Agreed: what I was trying (rather poorly) to argue is that whether or not a species is native is not really the point. The problems with Sycamore arise from its suceptibility to disease and invasive habit.

Regards

ACB

Sycamore also offers little in the way of benifits to our native wildlife. As part of the woodland managment plan on my golf course, we are removing sycamore every year. We had a visit from an ecology advisor from the sports turf research institute last week who was pleased with the way in which our small woodlands are being mangaged with the reduction of sycamore, and the re-introduction of native species.

Edited August 27, 2006 by Cheeseburger

[Adi F]

All this bad talk about Sycamore.

Sycamore is fully naturalized in this country and supports a large insect biomass which intern supports the bird population.

It is a fairly good fire wood and it can be used in a bow drill to make fire by friction. It is also a great carving wood although i stains easily. The leaves can be crushed up to make a useful soap

OK i know it is an evasive specie's but it ain't all bad.

[Rustynailer]

All this bad talk about Sycamore.

Sycamore is fully naturalized in this country and supports a large insect biomass which intern supports the bird population.

It is a fairly good fire wood and it can be used in a bow drill to make fire by friction. It is also a great carving wood although i stains easily. The leaves can be crushed up to make a useful soap

OK i know it is an evasive specie's but it ain't all bad.

It makes the best sterile chopping boards, second to none, the Romans if they braught it would have turned it, because by the middle ages it was widley known as a top, wood turning wood

Totally unlike Horse Chestnut by the way, which is used for milking pails and stools, cheep barrels, as a sacrificial planking to take impact, oh yes and it does burn when you mix it with other woods, we sell it as firewood mixed in with good stuff like Ash and Sycamore.

We have given up in some woods round here getting rid of Sycamore, instead we keep it cut as coppice every 6-8 years if we can. That way it never reaches the canopy and it's seeds dont become a problem. sorry i was at work for a min' then

[Adi F]

It makes the best sterile chopping boards, second to none, the Romans if they braught it would have turned it, because by the middle ages it was widley known as a top, wood turning wood

Totally unlike Horse Chestnut by the way, which is used for milking pails and stools, cheep barrels, as a sacrificial planking to take impact, oh yes and it does burn when you mix it with other woods, we sell it as firewood mixed in with good stuff like Ash and Sycamore.

We have given up in some woods round here getting rid of Sycamore, instead we keep it cut as coppice every 6-8 years if we can. That way it never reaches the canopy and it's seeds dont become a problem. sorry i was at work for a min' then

LOL thanks for your input i forgot its chopping board quality's and i did not realise it was good for turning but it does make an excellent flooring material

[Snowyowl9]

Also sycamore is part of the maple family.

You`ve got field maple,norway maple,london plane,Japanese maple I could mention more but I`ll be here all night

S9.

[Nick F]

Also sycamore is part of the maple family.

You`ve got field maple,norway maple,london plane,Japanese maple I could mention more but I`ll be here all night

S9.

London Plane, although has maple-like leaves, isn't a maple. It is a different genus: Platanus x hispanica in the case of London Plane. Maples are of the genus Acer and all its many species and sub-species, and include the other you mention.

London planes differ to maples by having bobble-like 'fruits' containing the seeds, while maples have seed 'wings'.

[Adi F]

Nick a nice description of the difference of Acer sp and London Plane your spot but most of all i like your Bobble like Fruits! spot on, love it

[Snowyowl9]

London Plane, although has maple-like leaves, isn't a maple. It is a different genus: Platanus x hispanica in the case of London Plane. Maples are of the genus Acer and all its many species and sub-species, and include the other you mention.

London planes differ to maples by having bobble-like 'fruits' containing the seeds, while maples have seed 'wings'.

Thanks for correcting me on that,what family are they from the plane

They are easily mistaken for maple as you know.

I`ve only seen them mainly in towns,and there must be some in london

S9.

[Blackie]

Interesting thread, guys. I must have missed it when I posted some photos I took of a potted horse chestnut my wife has grown in our back garden last week in the photography area (http://www.netweather.tv/forum/index.php?showtopic=32452) - although Rustynailer did comment on that.

My wife was saying that the horse chestnuts around Wisbech looked really weird with just the conkers and no leaves. At this rate we'll be left with no indigenous species and just loads of sycamore trees and rhododendrons everywhere! Mind you, as a kid I used to love playing with sycamore seeds, or helicopters as we called them. Maybe we were responsible for helping them spread.