Politics And AGW/GW

[laserguy]

Um, 2C₆H₁₄ + 19O₂-----> 12CO₂ +14H₂O. Not sure I'd describe 14:12 as "considerably more". And as Pete says, even methane gas (CH₄) only produces 2:1. I don't don't know where the guy got his "three times as much" idea from.....and benzene, which is also found in petrol, actually produces 2 x more molecules of CO₂ than water when it burns.

By the way, LG, you're not implying petrol only consists of hexane, are you?

Nope. What makes you think I'm doing that,Ossie? 'Considerably' or not,it's still,er,more. Is it not? Lot's of benzene,CO,CO2,formaldehyde and other delights in tobacco smoke too. Won't be long before that's banned to tackle 'global warming',too. Know it.

Dev,if Fox News,the Sun,Daily Smearer,Daily Flail or whatever were,as usual spouting the latest global warming claptrap,you'd be holding it up as gospel. I do know what you're saying re Fox,but even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day,y'know?

Quick note re today's planned 'Earth Hour' in order to 'raise awareness' of AGW. Let's leave the power off permanently to really hammer home the point eh? At the very least let's have it during the rush hour of those participating. When these bozos have done protesting or whatever it is they're doing,watch them scurry off to get that bus/taxi/train/private car then scoot back to use the FF's they so despise and bless them with a standard of living that until now lived in fantasy land. I,of course will take no notice of it whatsoever and pursue my already frugal lifestyle totally unfettered and without guilt,having let the misguided and deluded 'greenies' have their hour of soul cleansing.

[Devonian]

Dev,if Fox News,the Sun,Daily Smearer,Daily Flail or whatever were,as usual spouting the latest global warming claptrap,you'd be holding it up as gospel. I do know what you're saying re Fox,but even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day,y'know?

LG, since when have I ever quoted a tabloid? I never read then, I probably never will, let alone quote one as gospel.

[laserguy]

Lets ignore your invective and look at the strange argument you put forward. Essentially your argument goes 'if you don't believe this Fox News story you're lost cause'. Are you serious? Are we to believe Fox News is the font of distilled scientific wisdom?

Give us a break from such nonsense - please

Just found this - what Fox were on about.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/032709...rmationnote.pdf

Not much in there which is actually about climate! Only had a very,very quick skim thru',gotta go out real soon. Folks - WAKE...UP... before it's too late. Holy c**p,it already is. See y'all on the 'other side'.

[Thundery wintry showers]

So let's see... political discussions relating to climate change are political, therefore climate change is all about politics and not about climate? And the argument is right, because if we don't believe it, we are a lost cause?

It may not be circular reasoning this time, but I'm sure there are at least two or three classic "logical fallacies" in there!

The articles themselves are pretty good, and give a lot of food for thought. But we have to bear in mind that these articles are on policies to address potential climate change and not about the science itself- so why should there be a lot of science contained within them?

[Methuselah]

But there's one major difference between CO2 and H20...One kg of 'dry' air can only hold so much H20 at any given temperature; i.e. you must raise the temperature before adding the water. Otherwise, it'll merely precipitate out again. If here, then someplace else?

[Chris Knight]

But there's one major difference between CO2 and H20...One kg of 'dry' air can only hold so much H20 at any given temperature; i.e. you must raise the temperature before adding the water. Otherwise, it'll merely precipitate out again. If here, then someplace else?

Correction: One Kg of "dry" air contains no water!

[Methuselah]

Correction: One Kg of "dry" air contains no water!

You are right...

[Chris Knight]

So 1 kg of moist air can contain anything up to 0.999999999... kg of water, as long as the pressure and temperature are high enough, and the rest ( the 0.00000000...) is air

[Chris Knight]

But there's one major difference between CO2 and H20...One kg of 'dry' air can only hold so much H20 at any given temperature; i.e. you must raise the temperature before adding the water. Otherwise, it'll merely precipitate out again. If here, then someplace else? :lol:

looks like the gremlins struck again. please carry on as if nothing happened....

Edited March 30, 2009 by Chris Knight

[noggin]

A well put together piece here http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech-mainmen...environment/942 re the wheels falling off the old AGW bandwagon in the views of scientists, the media and the general public.

I reckon there are two wheels left on the wagon and it won't take much now for the remaining two to come off, as the momentum gathers pace.

[Chris Knight]

A well put together piece here http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech-mainmen...environment/942 re the wheels falling off the old AGW bandwagon in the views of scientists, the media and the general public.

I reckon there are two wheels left on the wagon and it won't take much now for the remaining two to come off, as the momentum gathers pace.

Aw, come on Noggin, it was only a Reliant Robin at the best of times!

[jethro]

Aw, come on Noggin, it was only a Reliant Robin at the best of times!

A Trotter m'bile? Surely not.

[PersianPaladin]

[Thundery wintry showers]

Ah, I see, an article preaching "free market capitalism is the solution to everything" and "AGW doesn't exist, because if it did, free market capitalism wouldn't be the solution to everything. AGW is just an excuse to bring in Socialism". OK so it doesn't put it that bluntly, but that's the message I get from the article... like so many articles that profess to "debunk" AGW.

That said, I am very much in favour of the "no regrets policies" and "carrot first, stick to be used as a last resort if the carrot isn't enough on its own" approach rather than the draconian taxations that are proposed by the environmental mainstream. So I do have some peripheral agreement with its points on "economy-crippling taxes", but that's about as far as it goes.

Let's nitpick a few bits of the article:

Then rising temperatures resumed until 1998 and now we're back on a cooling trend

What cooling trend? At best, a stagnation of global temperatures, and if we do get that powerful El Nino later this year, some people are likely to get egg on their faces...

is in conflict with climate forcing by CO2 that calls for a continuous upward temperature movement.

no, it calls for a continuous upward underlying trend with natural variability superimposed on top of it.

The points about CO2-temperature relationships have been stated thousands of times in other articles and have been criticised in other articles- we've had various discussions on this before.

In fact the whole article is the typical nonsense from what I call "climate disbelievers" (I prefer "disbelievers" to the more opinionated "deniers"). A climate sceptic, from the dictionary definition, is surely someone who is sceptical about AGW, not someone who works backwards from the premise that AGW isn't happening and fits various oft-quoted, oft-debunked arguments around that premise. They call themselves "sceptics" and give the genuine sceptics with well-reasoned criticisms of the AGW theory a bad name.

[Methuselah]

Good post TWS...

I just wonder how many more times you are going to need say that? Will it all fall on deaf ears, I wonder?

I really hope not, but history does have a habit of repeating itself!

[weather eater]

Good post TWS...

I just wonder how many more times you are going to need say that? Will it all fall on deaf ears, I wonder?

I really hope not, but history does have a habit of repeating itself!

I'll second that.

[jethro]

I agree with quite a bit of that TWS but the bit about sceptics giving well reasoned sceptics a bad name; that really does cut both ways ya know. There are just as many believers (for want of a better word) who refuse point blank to listen to any sceptic points (well reasoned or otherwise) purely on the basis that Agw is real, therefore it must be real. The usual reason given when asked is "look at all the stuff mankind does to the environment, how can you say we're not affecting it". Making a mess of the environment and the theory of AGW - CO2 has caused the warming - are two completely separate things but they're lumped together endlessly.

There really are genuine reasons for the scepticism, based on sound science; you're one of the few who accept and understand that.

On a completely different note, this made me laugh:

New Element Discovered

Lawrence Livermore Laboratories has discovered the heaviest element yet known to science. The new element, Governmentium (symbol=Gv), has one neutron , 25 assistant neutrons, 88 deputy neutrons, and 198 assistant deputy neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.

These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called peons.

Since Governmentium has no electrons, it is inert. However, it can be easily detected, because it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact. A tiny amount of Governmentium can cause a reaction that would normally take far less than a second, to take from 4 days to 4 years to complete.

Governmentium has a normal half-life of 2 to 6 years. It does not decay, but instead undergoes a reorganization in which a portion of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutrons exchange places. In fact, Governmentium' s mass will actually increase over time, since each reorganization will cause more morons to become neutrons, forming isodopes. This characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists to believe that Governmentium is formed whenever morons reach a critical concentration.

This hypothetical quantity is referred to as critical morass.

When catalyzed with money, Governmentium becomes Administratium (symbol=Ad), an element that has the ability to suck up and destroy just as much energy as Governmentium, since it has half as many peons but twice as many morons

[noggin]

Aw, come on Noggin, it was only a Reliant Robin at the best of times!

That's an insult to Reliant Robins!

[Methuselah]

That's funny Jethro...

[noggin]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/c...icle6011157.ece

"Climate change scepticism is going mainstream".

Ah, I feel somewhat relieved, I must say!

Here's another one..... http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/9971

Edited April 10, 2009 by noggin

[weather eater]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/c...icle6011157.ece

"Climate change scepticism is going mainstream".

Ah, I feel somewhat relieved, I must say!

Ho hum not so much scepticism as lets not worry about it and hey we cant afford it and if prof Dyson believes that GW is bunk what does he need to CO2 sucking super trees for, could it be that Mr Dyson is not so much one of the finest minds on the planet but at 85 going a bit batty.

[osmposm]

......could it be that Mr Dyson is not so much one of the finest minds on the planet but at 85 going a bit batty.

Despite being a rabid anti-ageist (I have to be, I'll be 60 in a couple of years), I do also view with caution the opinions of once-fine minds when they hit 80. The late great Linus Pauling became obsessed in later life with 'othomolecular medicine', his ideas for human bodily health - most famously his conviction that mega-doses of Vitamin C can prevent or abort infection with the common cold. Unfortunately very few practisers of the regime - including me - found it worked at all, and no independent research was ever able to find any evidence to support his theory. It certainly helped keep my bowels mobile, though!

[Essan]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/c...icle6011157.ece

"Climate change scepticism is going mainstream".

I note this quote from Dyson:

greens are people who've never had to worry about grocery bills

I think you'll find it's Dyson and his ilk who've never had to worry about his grocery bill. Or electricity bill. Whilst those of us who have always had to worry about such things become 'green' by necessity

Edited April 10, 2009 by Essan

[laserguy]

Unfortunately very few practisers of the regime - including me - found it worked at all, and no independent research was ever able to find any evidence to support his theory.

Ossie,is this bit still about Vitamin C or did you subtly switch to CO2/AGW theory there?

[osmposm]

Ossie,is this bit still about Vitamin C or did you subtly switch to CO2/AGW theory there?

Touché!