Autumn 2021 - Moans, Ramps & Chat

[NEVES SCREAMER]

Shocking rubbish. Cold. Downpours all afternoon. Feet are froze. Luckily a nice bit of weather coming up Thursday onwards. Hopefully see 20c at least. 

[Frost HoIIow]

5 minutes ago, NEVES SCREAMER said:

Shocking rubbish. Cold. Downpours all afternoon. Feet are froze. Luckily a nice bit of weather coming up Thursday onwards. Hopefully see 20c at least. 

Just shows how we're all different. Up here I've still got my shorts on people must think I'm mad  but if I put some trousers on I get too warm. Need some single digit max days before I contemplate getting them out of the wardrobe. No chance of that in the coming days, as you say if anything it's getting warmer by the looks of it.

[Weather Enthusiast91]

11 minutes ago, NEVES SCREAMER said:

Shocking rubbish. Cold. Downpours all afternoon. Feet are froze. Luckily a nice bit of weather coming up Thursday onwards. Hopefully see 20c at least. 

20+ Celsius temps become more difficult to achieve during October, though certainly not impossible. 

It does seem that autumn doesn't fully take hold until the clocks go back. As is the case in spring when the clocks go forward.

[Summer8906]

On 08/09/2021 at 17:57, stainesbloke said:

Would staying on BST eradicate the problem? Lighter evenings in winter, though mornings wouldn’t benefit

Yes, yes, yes!

(Sorry if this is a late reply, I'm reviewing this thread after having been away in September).

Actually being a bit more objective, I can see a need for winter time in December and January, as otherwise we'd see sunrises around 09.00 or even later.

However, in early November we see a very early solar noon (something like 11.45am winter time; given the typical working day, you really want something close to 13.00). This leads to the ridiculous setup where the sun rises before 0700 and sets before 1700. Early November days are lop-sided and it feels like we're on the wrong timezone (which arguably we are, given the other countries on our longitude which are France and Spain, not Iceland and Portugal).

Also the switch back to BST is way too late - why wait until the end of March when you could safely switch back to BST a month earlier?

So as a compromise I would delay the change to winter time until the middle of November (say, the Monday following Remembrance Sunday) and bring forward the switch back to BST to the Saturday of the last weekend in February. Winter time should be cut to the absolute minimum period necessary to avoid post-9am sunrises across all major towns in the UK. Looks like in Glasgow, for example, this would happen just after mid-November. (Actually, even in Glasgow sunrise at the end of Feb is shortly after 0700 winter time so it could perhaps be even earlier Feb).

Also (as implied above) I'd switch to winter time on the Monday morning, not the Sunday morning - why take away valuable afternoon daylight on a Sunday when people can use it? Likewise, the switch back to BST should be on a Saturday morning, for the same reason.

The island of Ireland (including NI) could remain on the current system as it's that bit further west and winter time is more suited to Ireland's longitude than Great Britain's.

For another thing, BST permits post-work outdoor activities and should extend over as much of the year as possible. That's what's particularly depressing about the early switch - right now you can still do such activities, come the start of November we're plunged into long dark evenings stuck at home. At least we gain a week of BST this year thanks to the calendar.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Summer8906

[Summer8906]

On 09/09/2021 at 09:43, MP-R said:

The weird thing living in Madrid was how it was still almost completely dark at 8am in December and January. Very odd. Yes it got darker an hour later but the mornings were a struggle.

Thankfully winter is a sunnier and less cold affair over there.

 

I have experienced the Spanish winter - briefly - in Andalusia, just east of Malaga, at the end of December 2015. (Weather a constant 18c by day, low teens by night, and largely sunny - kind of like good October weather in the UK).

I do remember the rather different timezone there, though the area is of course very far west within Spain. Parts of Spain are east of London. Something like 0830 sunrise, 1800 sunset.

Being a person that finds daylight between 1600-1800 extremely valuable, I loved it!

Edited October 4, 2021 by Summer8906

[hillbilly]

15 minutes ago, Summer8906 said:

Yes, yes, yes!

(Sorry if this is a late reply, I'm reviewing this thread after having been away in September).

Actually being a bit more objective, I can see a need for winter time in December and January, as otherwise we'd see sunrises around 09.00 or even later.

However, in early November we see a very early solar noon (something like 11.45am). This leads to the ridiculous setup where the sun rises before 0700 and sets before 1700. Early November days are lop-sided and it feels like we're on the wrong timezone (which arguably we are, given the other countries on our longitude which are France and Spain, not Iceland and Portugal).

Also the switch back to BST is way too late - why wait until the end of March when you could safely switch back to BST a month earlier?

So as a compromise I would delay the change to winter time until the middle of November (say, the Monday following Remembrance Sunday) and bring forward the switch back to BST to the Saturday of the last weekend in February. Winter time should be cut to the absolute minimum period necessary to avoid post-9am sunrises across all major towns in the UK. Looks like in Glasgow, for example, this would happen just after mid-November. (Actually, even in Glasgow sunrise at the end of Feb is shortly after 0700 winter time so it could perhaps be even earlier Feb).

Also (as implied above) I'd switch to winter time on the Monday morning, not the Sunday morning - why take away valuable afternoon daylight on a Sunday when people can use it? Likewise, the switch back to BST should be on a Saturday morning, for the same reason.

The island of Ireland (including NI) could remain on the current system as it's that bit further west and winter time is more suited to Ireland's longitude than Great Britain's.

For another thing, BST permits post-work outdoor activities and should extend over as much of the year as possible.

It is not likely that anything will change regarding changing the times of the clocks,its has been debated many times to no avail.Personally i would have Bst all year round  or even Bst +1.

Your choice of times however doesnt make much sence to me as you would change the clocks back just 4 weeks before the evening switchover yet it would be 11 weeks before you change back to Bst.Shortening the times between changes too much would make a mockery of changing them at all.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Mapantz said:

Only 4 days in to October, and already surpassed 60mm of rain, with more to come later.

Looks like we’ll get hammered tonight! Nasty squall lime possible.

[I remember Atlantic 252]

Bristol channel streamer, a horrid setup for the West Midlands, here not as bad as Cannock, tomorrow even worse for Stafford/Stoke, wrap around days can be wettest setup, like 25th Sept '12, I expect most of the W Midlands to stay dry tomorrow, say Cannock southwards

[Summer8906]

8 minutes ago, hillbilly said:

It is not likely that anything will change regarding changing the times of the clocks,its has been debated many times to no avail.Personally i would have Bst all year round  or even Bst +1.

I personally could put up with BST all year myself. I am just recognising that, for some, the dark mornings of late Nov - Dec - Jan under all-year BST might be too much - so I'm offering a compromise where we still have winter time, but we only have it when it's necessary. Most of the arguments against all-year BST are due to extreme dark mornings (i.e. sunrise after 0900) so it's a solution that could avoid this while still maintaining BST for most of the year.

November has an early solar noon, January has a late solar noon - so there is more need for winter time on the 'spring' side of the winter solstice than the 'autumn' side. Compare sunset times under winter time for Nov 6 and Feb 6, two days with equal day length. For this area, the former is something like 16:30, the latter, beyond 17:00. So it's clearly seen that early Nov has very early solar noon - and staying on BST is more critical in early Nov than early Feb, as early Feb sunset times are 'naturally' later.  Conversely, early Feb mornings are still dark. (But I would still switch back to BST before the end of Feb, when the dark mornings problem has disappeared).

Edited October 4, 2021 by Summer8906

[mb018538]

35 minutes ago, Weather Enthusiast91 said:

20+ Celsius temps become more difficult to achieve during October, though certainly not impossible. 

It does seem that autumn doesn't fully take hold until the clocks go back. As is the case in spring when the clocks go forward.

Seasons just seem to be getting a little less defined than in the past in our warming world….with a warm September and what could be a quiet October (on the whole) developing, people might wonder where a traditional autumn has gone!

[Summer8906]

1 hour ago, AderynCoch said:

Lovely day here, 24C and sunny. More of the same tomorrow before a big temperature drop on Wednesday accompanied by rain.

I wonder how many warm days October can eke out before autumn takes hold for good. 

I've noticed that areas towards the southeast of Europe often have the 'opposite' weather pattern to the UK - given that the weather is supposed to be turning warmer and drier here later in the week.

Would make sense, as a southerly over southeast Europe would probably be driven by cyclonic conditions over western Europe, while a low over southeast Europe would probably be associated with a high over the northwest.

A good example occurred in September, when I was in northern Greece (a lot further south than Bratislava, I realise, but not a million miles away perhaps). The period 6th-9th was notably cool for Greece and Wed 8th was dull, wet and cool, failing to even get to 20. Back home on the other hand, it appeared we had quite a pronounced - if short - heatwave.

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Summer8906

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, mb018538 said:

Seasons just seem to be getting a little less defined than in the past in our warming world….with a warm September and what could be a quiet October (on the whole) developing, people might wonder where a traditional autumn has gone!

Agreed, the most violent of the Atlantic storms always seemed to occur in Oct/Nov the last 10-12yrs the biggest storms almost always fall in winter. 

[Summer8906]

10 minutes ago, mb018538 said:

Seasons just seem to be getting a little less defined than in the past in our warming world….with a warm September and what could be a quiet October (on the whole) developing, people might wonder where a traditional autumn has gone!

Though arguably 'mists and mellow fruitfulness' are as much a part of a traditional autumn as rain and gales!

Edited October 4, 2021 by Summer8906

[MattStoke]

16 minutes ago, I remember Atlantic 252 said:

Bristol channel streamer, a horrid setup for the West Midlands, here not as bad as Cannock, tomorrow even worse for Stafford/Stoke, wrap around days can be wettest setup, like 25th Sept '12, I expect most of the W Midlands to stay dry tomorrow, say Cannock southwards

Another ‘if only it was winter’ kind of day.

[I remember Atlantic 252]

2 minutes ago, MattStoke said:

Another ‘if only it was winter’ kind of day.

doubt that, maybe at 300m asl

[damianslaw]

1 hour ago, I remember Atlantic 252 said:

doubt that, maybe at 300m asl

Tomorrow's synoptics would be a snow maker in the Dec-March period I think, deepening low pressure system moving through the region, wrap around front from the north, evaporative cooling would be the order of the day, thanks to the heavy precipitation.. would be talking a foot or more here probably, alas, its just going to bring cold rain.. later in October I'd expect snowfall on higher ground, alas not quite cold enough. 

[stainesbloke]

3 hours ago, Summer8906 said:

Though arguably 'mists and mellow fruitfulness' are as much a part of a traditional autumn as rain and gales!

Absolutely. Haven’t really had any foggy autumnal weather yet, plenty of rain and wind though

[AderynCoch]

On 04/10/2021 at 18:47, Summer8906 said:

I've noticed that areas towards the southeast of Europe often have the 'opposite' weather pattern to the UK - given that the weather is supposed to be turning warmer and drier here later in the week.

Would make sense, as a southerly over southeast Europe would probably be driven by cyclonic conditions over western Europe, while a low over southeast Europe would probably be associated with a high over the northwest.

A good example occurred in September, when I was in northern Greece (a lot further south than Bratislava, I realise, but not a million miles away perhaps). The period 6th-9th was notably cool for Greece and Wed 8th was dull, wet and cool, failing to even get to 20. Back home on the other hand, it appeared we had quite a pronounced - if short - heatwave.

 

Sometimes but not always. A lot depends on the placement of high/low pressure systems and how broad/elongated they are. Much of the time I find that a very hot/cold month in the UK coincides with a quite hot/cold month here (and vice-versa). 6-9th September was pretty warm here (24-26C) but it was hotter the following week.

 

[Summer8906]

4 hours ago, AderynCoch said:

Sometimes but not always. A lot depends on the placement of high/low pressure systems and how broad/elongated they are. Much of the time I find that a very hot/cold month in the UK coincides with a quite hot/cold month here (and vice-versa). 6-9th September was pretty warm here (24-26C) but it was hotter the following week.

 

True, perhaps for Greece, being further away, this pattern is more pronounced.

I am sure I remember reading that summer 1976 was a shocker in southeastern Europe, and more recently the first part of summer 2018 was relatively unsettled there (but August, which was disappointing here, then became notably hot and sunny).

Edited October 5, 2021 by Summer8906

[LetItSnow!]

42 minutes ago, Summer8906 said:

True, perhaps for Greece, being further away, this pattern is more pronounced.

I am sure I remember reading that summer 1976 was a shocker in southeastern Europe, and more recently the first part of summer 2018 was relatively unsettled there (but August, which was disappointing here, then became notably hot and sunny).

Won't go too off topic but I think much of the northern hemisphere had a shocker summer in 1976. The U.K. was well and truly on its own. IIRC, anomaly maps show much of eastern Europe/USA had an very cool summer. Goes to show how exceptional that summer truly was.

[Norrance]

Cold, wet and windy. 10C in a fresh Northerly with steady rain. At this rate the long trousers will be coming out if the wardrobe shortly.

[Glaswegianblizzard]

On 04/10/2021 at 17:07, Summer8906 said:

Yes, yes, yes!

(Sorry if this is a late reply, I'm reviewing this thread after having been away in September).

Actually being a bit more objective, I can see a need for winter time in December and January, as otherwise we'd see sunrises around 09.00 or even later.

However, in early November we see a very early solar noon (something like 11.45am winter time; given the typical working day, you really want something close to 13.00). This leads to the ridiculous setup where the sun rises before 0700 and sets before 1700. Early November days are lop-sided and it feels like we're on the wrong timezone (which arguably we are, given the other countries on our longitude which are France and Spain, not Iceland and Portugal).

Also the switch back to BST is way too late - why wait until the end of March when you could safely switch back to BST a month earlier?

So as a compromise I would delay the change to winter time until the middle of November (say, the Monday following Remembrance Sunday) and bring forward the switch back to BST to the Saturday of the last weekend in February. Winter time should be cut to the absolute minimum period necessary to avoid post-9am sunrises across all major towns in the UK. Looks like in Glasgow, for example, this would happen just after mid-November. (Actually, even in Glasgow sunrise at the end of Feb is shortly after 0700 winter time so it could perhaps be even earlier Feb).

Also (as implied above) I'd switch to winter time on the Monday morning, not the Sunday morning - why take away valuable afternoon daylight on a Sunday when people can use it? Likewise, the switch back to BST should be on a Saturday morning, for the same reason.

The island of Ireland (including NI) could remain on the current system as it's that bit further west and winter time is more suited to Ireland's longitude than Great Britain's.

For another thing, BST permits post-work outdoor activities and should extend over as much of the year as possible. That's what's particularly depressing about the early switch - right now you can still do such activities, come the start of November we're plunged into long dark evenings stuck at home. At least we gain a week of BST this year thanks to the calendar.

You’re forgetting though that in Glasgow from Mid December to Mid January sunrise is after 8:30am, around New Year it is around 8:50am, it is *pitch* dark until about 8am at that time of year. Any changes to move onto permanent BST would mean it was dark until well after 9am and in mid winter it’d be still getting dark before 5pm - sunset in Glasgow in December and early Jan is before 4pm. Nothing really gained and early daylight is removed which would be just as bad for SAD etc.
 

And of course, for Inverness, Kirkwall etc it would be even worse. Sorry, the dark days may be tough going, just as they can be for all of us, but I think scrapping wintertime would be a dreadful idea.

 

EDIT:Apologies, I see you’re saying to limit wintertime rather than remove it. Still not sure of the benefits here as by putting clocks back when we do we regain an hour of light between 7-8am in Glasgow, any later/earlier and we would increase the amount of time it was dark post 8am. Not a fan, the current set up is as good as we are likely to get it I think.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Glaswegianblizzard

[Summer8906]

3 hours ago, Glaswegianblizzard said:

EDIT:Apologies, I see you’re saying to limit wintertime rather than remove it. Still not sure of the benefits here as by putting clocks back when we do we regain an hour of light between 7-8am in Glasgow, any later/earlier and we would increase the amount of time it was dark post 8am. Not a fan, the current set up is as good as we are likely to get it I think.

Though it would also increase the amount of time it was light in the afternoon.. It would still be light well beyond 1700 well into November, which would (assuming the weather isn't terrible) mean more opportunity for outdoor activities to continue and reduce the time it's dark in the evenings - I find long dark evenings difficult. While darkness between 0700-0800 means a dark commute, darkness between 1700-1800 means the same in the evening. By making the morning commute darker, you're making the evening commute lighter. (I realise you're screwed both ways in December and January, hence my idea for a short winter time. Damn those Romans for colonising land so far north.. below 45N with sensible day lengths all year is the place to be )

I guess it's a question of when we most want it to be light: for me, daylight between 1600-1700 or 1700-1800 is more valuable than between 0700-0800.

The other question is: if the typical working day is approx 0900-1700 (I know things vary, for some it's earlier, for some it's later) you could argue, perhaps, that we stick on a timezone where it's light between 0900-1700  (rather than 0800-1600) for as much of the year as possible, i.e. BST.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Summer8906

[Seasonal Trim]

All this talk (every year) of staying on BST all year and we never seem to have an agreement. Seems to me that we should just leave it well alone and continue as we are.

Not that it affects me anyway. I work nights, so as soon as the clock goes back, I spend days on end without seeing more than an hour of daylight! Not that I'm complaining, I love it. 

[Methuselah]

7 minutes ago, Seasonal Trim said:

All this talk (every year) of staying on BST all year and we never seem to have an agreement. Seems to me that we should just leave it well alone and continue as we are.

Not that it affects me anyway. I work nights, so as soon as the clock goes back, I spend days on end without seeing more than an hour of daylight! Not that I'm complaining, I love it. 

As someone who experienced the BST all-year experiment (1968-71?) I prefer all-year-round BST. But, as the dark mornings around the Winter Solstice are clearly too much for some, I'd be happy were we to put the clocks forward on the first Sunday in March rather than the last. Isn't that a fair compromise?