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Stratosphere and Polar Vortex Watch 2020


SqueakheartLW

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Posted
  • Location: st albans
  • Location: st albans


ec day 10 seems to be at least  a day ahead of gfs on its route to an ssw (if it arrives). Note the height of the vortex is 2862 dm at day 10 whereas at the moment it is 2808dm.  Losing intensity ........

image.thumb.png.ed9455cc26f8bc28cdb025352777c967.png

 

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Posted
  • Location: Scunthorpe
  • Location: Scunthorpe

My favourite ensemble member on the 00z GFS today is Member 9

image.thumb.png.2a1af5c585c02c8b8e5dabab275eca57.png

Here we have the peak of the warming event at +204 hours

image.thumb.png.3f3d7247e2fc65b89b536cddc42416ed.png

The vortex weakens and begins to split here at +264 hours

image.thumb.png.73b646c7cac570be6e17c07a45ec2764.png

The lobes are pushed away from the pole leaving a large warmer area right through the pole from Siberia to Europe by +312 hours

image.thumb.png.15fad2bd6e59d872d6c4fbe08cba434c.png

By +384 hours there is very little left of the polar vortex. One small area above the Pacific and an even weaker remnant above Southern Asia

image.thumb.png.5c95f0df2d2f7da7525eb689a1d9ac84.png

Just imagine if that -40 m/s member came off. Since GFS Member 9 looked to be the best one by far I think that could be this one

Edited by SqueakheartLW
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Posted
  • Location: New Forest (Western)
  • Weather Preferences: Fascinated by extreme weather. Despise drizzle.
  • Location: New Forest (Western)

Sure is a lot of spread among the GEFS, while GFS is now among the most suppressed for total warming and rate of progress toward a SSW.

Not sure what to make of that. GEFS were recently upgraded but I imagine they’re still short of GFS in the stratosphere?

Regardless, with ECM looking faster, that’s encouraging for achieving a SSW. Main question is, split or displacement?

The displacement GFS has now shown for two runs in a row leaves a bit much of a vortex over Greenland/Canada for my liking - but for all we know, this detail could well be nullified soon.

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Posted
  • Location: st albans
  • Location: st albans
13 minutes ago, Singularity said:

Sure is a lot of spread among the GEFS, while GFS is now among the most suppressed for total warming and rate of progress toward a SSW.

Not sure what to make of that. GEFS were recently upgraded but I imagine they’re still short of GFS in the stratosphere?

Regardless, with ECM looking faster, that’s encouraging for achieving a SSW. Main question is, split or displacement?

The displacement GFS has now shown for two runs in a row leaves a bit much of a vortex over Greenland/Canada for my liking - but for all we know, this detail could well be nullified soon.

I’m a little confused by the displacement comments ...... surely those runs not showing a reversal are likely showing a displacement of the spv (they may well have gone on to split in any case) whereas those which do reverse are probably splitting the spv??

the last four gfs ops showed one split, two with stretched vortex centred Asian side and the 00z run with vortex beginning to stretch but centred to our north 

Edited by bluearmy
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Posted
  • Location: New Forest (Western)
  • Weather Preferences: Fascinated by extreme weather. Despise drizzle.
  • Location: New Forest (Western)

Perhaps, but reversals do happen with displacements, albeit a bit less often than with splits.

That being what classifies a ‘major displacement SSW’ in some analysis.

True that some may actually be slower routes to splits - can be hard to tell if the ‘pinch’ will manifest.

My earlier remarks are mainly in light of some GEFS members being as soon as days 11-12 with a split. Fascinating possibilities afoot.

Edited by Singularity
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Posted
  • Location: New Forest (Western)
  • Weather Preferences: Fascinated by extreme weather. Despise drizzle.
  • Location: New Forest (Western)

Great insight on diagnosing the GFS runs, thanks. If only we could do that for GEFS runs too! Maybe there’s a way out there somewhere... but it might not be free.

Admittedly I’ve been focusing on the top-down pathway as that’s the one I associate with rapid downwelling if a split is achieved at around 10 mb... but thinking about it, it could well be that a bottom-up split development is a key aspect toward achieving an effective downwell to begin with. It’s also a reflection on the troposphere being more receptive.

The SSW process is still one of the most poorly resolved areas of meteorology - seems like every month or two I read papers that contradict earlier ones regarding what leads to what, when a SSW should be classified as major, whether minor displacements should even be considered a type of SSW to begin with... that sort of thing.
 

So, I try not to presume much when it comes to upcoming SSW possibilities... but that bottom-up process has raised my eyebrows as we saw that in Nov-Dec 2010, propagating upward from the Greenland area in conjunction with the impressive blocking high formations around there. I’m not sure it made it to 10 mb that time though - I believe a separate event then followed in January...?

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Posted
  • Location: st albans
  • Location: st albans

Remember that the bottom up split is less reliable because it relies on the trop being modelled correctly ......however, keep an eye on when that wave(s) is ejected upwards from the trop because if that’s in a reliable timeframe all systems are go 

would love to have access to eps strat data to see why they were so keen on an accelerated warming yesterday. 

 

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Posted
  • Location: Lincolnshire - 15m asl
  • Weather Preferences: Frost and snow. A quiet autumn day is also good.
  • Location: Lincolnshire - 15m asl

I’m going to take a slightly unscientific path - and judge that the vortex will split because of an accumulation of contextual factors. We have EAMT spiking now, and a forecast of another spike soon...possibly a very big spike. We have a semi permanent Ural ridge causing no end of long term harm, and a meridional Atlantic with a Greenland ridge adding more pressure. And the EPS in general has the North Pacific high very suppressed.

Modelling has the vortex skewing over to the atlantic side where wave 2 pressure is exerted according to yesterday’s ECM from around day 10. And when one considers the approximate shape of the upper and lower vortex as forecast, and the below average wind speeds holding it all together - I just think we don’t need to hang on every chart looking for that split. If wind speeds were higher and the core of the vortex more coherent then a displacement would seem a fair bet. Right now instinct just tells me it will split.

Ill crawl back into my hole and hide for a bit if it doesn’t come to pass! - but if/when it does then it’s all about those spinning daughter vortex shards. Where will they end up? That’s a toughie.......

 

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Posted
  • Location: St Albans, 95m asl
  • Location: St Albans, 95m asl
40 minutes ago, bluearmy said:

Remember that the bottom up split is less reliable because it relies on the trop being modelled correctly ......however, keep an eye on when that wave(s) is ejected upwards from the trop because if that’s in a reliable timeframe all systems are go 

would love to have access to eps strat data to see why they were so keen on an accelerated warming yesterday. 

 

Yes ^^ absolutely this, thanks Nick - I should have added this into the original post. We should expect to see as much variation in the lower stratospheric forecast as we will in the troposphere given that the bottom-up action is tropospheric led.

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Posted
  • Location: Kirkcaldy, Fife, Scotland 20m ASL
  • Weather Preferences: Snow,Thunderstorms mix both for heaven THUNDERSNOW 😜😀🤤🥰
  • Location: Kirkcaldy, Fife, Scotland 20m ASL

If you click on the tweet you can see the interesting discussion about the possible warming event and some older similar patterns that resulted in warming events in the past 

 

Edited by Kirkcaldy Weather
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Posted
  • Location: Lincolnshire - 15m asl
  • Weather Preferences: Frost and snow. A quiet autumn day is also good.
  • Location: Lincolnshire - 15m asl

Well - Eric has plumped for a displacement. His composite for this kind of displacement looks good....but it is a slight blow today for a guy of his undoubted knowledge not to plump for a split. Insufficient North Pacific ridging the culprit.

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Posted
  • Location: Wantage, Oxon
  • Weather Preferences: Hot, cold!
  • Location: Wantage, Oxon

I don’t see how this cannot be not just a split but a total dismemberment.  

The vortex is in tatters in different ways at different levels of the atmosphere.  This plot sums up the forecast position at T384:

F09BF3E6-A2C4-43AB-8D7D-CF54D1616B55.thumb.png.adf104631262574aafdf044ff70cdb68.png

You can’t just push a thing like that to one side, which is what a displacement would be!  

My thoughts are a little delay on the split - strat forecasts maybe have more variability due to a lot of the drivers being trop driven this time, but the same split is showing at the end of the GFS 12z:

85A1D7D3-F89E-47B4-B432-5F43FBC1A8DE.thumb.png.04ac8cfd54c48cfc2419a38f037fac28.png

Just not quite there yet.  

Edited by Mike Poole
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Posted
  • Location: 50/50 Greece/Germany
  • Weather Preferences: Cold winters, hot summers
  • Location: 50/50 Greece/Germany

Well, EC is on track...

fluxes.png That 60°N is close to be negativeecmwfzm_u_f240.png

 

But a split... wait and see

Ozone looks good to me, but a bit more would be fine!

TO3_2021010100_F240.png

 

Edited by Vikos
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Posted
  • Location: Hayward’s Heath - home, Brighton/East Grinstead - work.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and storms
  • Location: Hayward’s Heath - home, Brighton/East Grinstead - work.

Not convinced by displacement only.  There will definitely be some wave 2 activity. Unusual to see the primary source of this is Atlantic based.  I guess if primary source of wave 2 activity was pacific based then that would be more concerning.  But it isn’t. So the fact that wave 2 activity is Atlantic trop based can only be a good thing no mattEr what eventually happens further up. It’s a case of needing to focus on the sources of the disruption rather than the actual disruption itself.

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Posted
  • Location: Caterham-on-the-hill, Surrey, 190m asl (home), Heathrow (work)
  • Location: Caterham-on-the-hill, Surrey, 190m asl (home), Heathrow (work)

Strong signal from 12z EPS for a reversal ...

 

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Posted
  • Location: Hayward’s Heath - home, Brighton/East Grinstead - work.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and storms
  • Location: Hayward’s Heath - home, Brighton/East Grinstead - work.

I had a big discussion earlier on Twitter about using 65N. After reading the papers suggested I think we need to concentrate on 60N

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Posted
  • Location: New Forest (Western)
  • Weather Preferences: Fascinated by extreme weather. Despise drizzle.
  • Location: New Forest (Western)

There is, I believe, such a thing as a wave-1 dominated vortex split.

It happens when you have a huge wave-1 and just a little wave-2. The dominant ridge shoves the vortex against the weak one and it’s like bringing a plank down on a sharp rock edge. 

Also... as far as I can tell from literature, wave-2 diagnostics are tied to the usual source which is an Aleutian Low, East Asia High combo. Not sure if this is truly the case but if it is, Atlantic sourced wave-2 via Greenland will be missed.

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Posted
  • Location: Hayward’s Heath - home, Brighton/East Grinstead - work.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and storms
  • Location: Hayward’s Heath - home, Brighton/East Grinstead - work.
19 minutes ago, Singularity said:

There is, I believe, such a thing as a wave-1 dominated vortex split.

It happens when you have a huge wave-1 and just a little wave-2. The dominant ridge shoves the vortex against the weak one and it’s like bringing a plank down on a sharp rock edge. 

Also... as far as I can tell from literature, wave-2 diagnostics are tied to the usual source which is an Aleutian Low, East Asia High combo. Not sure if this is truly the case but if it is, Atlantic sourced wave-2 via Greenland will be missed.

Yep. Hence without the Pacific strong source, the Greenland block is all that really matters in this case. Normally the pinch point is thumb in Pacific, broken little finger Atlantic area ( often Scandinavia based). Opposite now

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Posted
  • Location: Hoyland,barnsley,south yorkshire(134m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: severe storms,snow wind and ice
  • Location: Hoyland,barnsley,south yorkshire(134m asl)

GEPS goes for a split at 10 hpa.

NH_HGT_10mb_384.thumb.gif.b93b17d53e234266a139edfba7bb84d6.gif

gfs at384.

gfsnh-10-384.thumb.png.c94890d5d6338835e8e6c65235c23d20.png

 

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Posted
  • Location: caernarfon(gwynedd)
  • Location: caernarfon(gwynedd)
21 minutes ago, bluearmy said:

The 10hpa temp anoms on ec (gem similar) v different to gfs at day 10 

image.thumb.png.04cdcc25f58a2f1529803f96b002139d.pngimage.thumb.png.1d760c860bf806a38c73b2ecc7cb16e9.png    

When will we get an idea on what will be a likely outcome for the UK.  Whats your pennies worth?

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