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Snipper

Should there be population control?

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Posted (edited)

If yes should it be by carrot or stick or a combination of the two?

Edited by Snipper

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You can't force people to have fewer children but for the sake of the planet there needs to be options considered to at least slow population growth. It's the elephant in the room when it comes to climate change.

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Never happen  infrastructure not in place   population boom  is prodomently  in very poor African countries    

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It will only work if humans choose to breed responsibly. I can’t condone the state forcing people to make that decision as I do believe in human rights (even if that includes the right to destroy the planet) as without the basic rights and freedoms we wouldn’t have the chance to innovate - but I get so angry when I see or hear about people having more than 4 children without at least considering the cost this has on the planet (my parents had 4 of us so that’s set my arbitrary limit 😄).

Obviously it’s not that black and white either - some people live more shrewdly than others, so setting a particular limit to offspring seems pointless in that regard, but I don’t see why people need sprawling families anyway.

Nature will probably intervene anyway, something will likely reduce our fertility levels and control us, or a cataclysm will wipe a huge part of the population out at some point.

We choose or Gaia chooses for us 🤷‍♂️

 

 

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Told you what you could do in the other thread but got told it was not appropriate on this forum, but anyway you can only do that in an over populated country like ours but who are we to tell other countries what to do, so there isn't really a great deal you can do overall i am afraid, we are doomed - the end of the world is coming - get ready!

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Population explosions are followed by population crashes. I believe the same will happen to humans.  Probably through disease. But nature will find a way.

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6 minutes ago, sundog said:

Population explosions are followed by population crashes. I believe the same will happen to humans.  Probably through disease. But nature will find a way.

I think it could be through a nuclear holocaust unfortunately, certainly war will play a part, but not only will a lot die, even more harmful stuff will fill the atmosphere then.

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Posted (edited)

The reason for current population growth is not because current birth rates are too high, it is because people are living longer. In many countries the fertility rate is below 2.0 (much below the early 1970s, for reference have shown the map from a previous thread) and that will lead to long term population decrease. 

image.thumb.png.8ffdd09fd0e695b57a038168d342f8eb.png

So what we will see in developed countries is population growth slowing and then eventually decreasing due to the low fertility rates. We will therefore see aging populations with less young people then old. So the idea of birth rates are the problem especially in countries such as ours doesn't hold up. This is especially the case when you consider the richest 10% of the worlds population are responsible for 50% of greenhouse gas emissions.

The poorest 50% contribute to only 10% of global CO2 emissions. So to say the problem is overpopulation I think is far too simplistic. The best we can do is research for more solutions that allow for easier adaptation to greener lifestyles and technologies... and where possible try and lower our own. That isn't easy I admit but it is by far the best thing we can do in our current situation.

 

Edited by Quicksilver1989

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Quicksilver1989 said:

The reason for population growth is not because current birth rates are too high, it is because people are living longer. In many countries the fertility rate is below 2.0 (much below the early 1970s, for reference have shown the map from a previous thread) and that will lead to long term population decrease. 

 

S

Regarding our country i am sorry i am just not having it, i had this debate in 1995 with someone and was told reproduction and immigration would only maintain the current situation, by people who were going to university and supposedly more intellectual and guess what - population of the UK has gone up every single year since, you can dress it up any way you want, present as many fancy graphs as you want, but there is more and more houses, shops, businesses springing up everywhere you go and you cannot move these days, that suggests only one thing to me.

Edited by feb1991blizzard

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9 minutes ago, feb1991blizzard said:

Regarding our country i am sorry i am just not having it, i had this debate in 1995 with someone and was told reproduction and immigration would only maintain the current situation, by people who were going to university and supposedly more intellectual and guess what - population of the UK has gone up every single year since, you can dress it up any way you want, present as many fancy graphs as you want, but there is more and more houses, shops, businesses springing up everywhere you go and you cannot move these days, that suggests only one thing to me.

Britain's population has increased every single year since we finally said 'goodbye' to The Black Death...🤔

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Just now, Ed Stone said:

Britain's population has increased every single year since we finally said 'goodbye' to The Black Death...🤔

Exactly!  -  but at some point we won't have any room - your the one who always bangs the drum about the future, you are into all this green stuff, you will run out of opportunities to build up, so you will have to build on green belt land.

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Just now, feb1991blizzard said:

Exactly!  -  but at some point we won't have any room - your the one who always bangs the drum about the future, you are into all this green stuff, you will run out of opportunities to build up, so you will have to build on green belt land.

And who's going to do the work, and pay all the taxes, so that you and I can eventually have free TV licenses...and the myriad other 'services' that 50-odd-million decrepit old fossils are going to need? 

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1 minute ago, Ed Stone said:

And who's going to do the work, and pay all the taxes, so that you and I can eventually have free TV licenses...and the myriad other 'services' that 50-odd-million decrepit old fossils are going to need? 

If people are going to live longer, they will have to work longer, there will be chemical drugs invented by then for muscle growth, bone maintenance, like what drug cheats use but much more advanced and of course it won't be wrong to use them because you will be doing the economy a favour by using them, not just a selfish deceitful way of making a quick buck.

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Plus as well we have cloned a sheep before so surely soon with studies on Eugenics, we will be able to genetically modify people so they are fitter, stronger and less likely to be ill etc.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, feb1991blizzard said:

Regarding our country i am sorry i am just not having it, i had this debate in 1995 with someone and was told reproduction and immigration would only maintain the current situation, by people who were going to university and supposedly more intellectual and guess what - population of the UK has gone up every single year since, you can dress it up any way you want, present as many fancy graphs as you want, but there is more and more houses, shops, businesses springing up everywhere you go and you cannot move these days, that suggests only one thing to me.

Why should that surprise you though that it is still increasing? Births spiked after the second world war and then spiked again in the mid to late 1980s as baby boomers themselves were having babies.... The fact that the fertility rate here is only 1.8 will only mean that our population will age.

image.thumb.png.172cc382768720ac5512fdf5b3e1e882.pngimage.thumb.png.77a0b4c2618321e31e84d06a11b85f5a.png  

As a result, population growth in the UK is projected to slow down. How quickly that growth turns to zero depends on net migration... but with birth rates decreasing and changes in population dynamics, the growth rate will slow.

And I think the ONS is a legit data source as you can get. Read about it here if you are inclined to learn more.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/overviewoftheukpopulation/august2019

 

 

Edited by Quicksilver1989

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3 minutes ago, Quicksilver1989 said:

Why should that surprise you though that it is still increasing? Births spiked after the second world war and then spiked again in the mid to late 1980s as baby boomers themselves were having babies.... The fact that the fertility rate here is only 1.8 will only mean that our population will age.

image.thumb.png.172cc382768720ac5512fdf5b3e1e882.pngimage.thumb.png.77a0b4c2618321e31e84d06a11b85f5a.png  

As a result, population growth in the UK is projected to slow down. How quickly that growth turns to zero depends on net migration... but with birth rates decreasing and changes in population dynamics, the growth rate will slow.

And I think the ONS is a legit data source as you can get. Read about it here if you are inclined to learn more.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/overviewoftheukpopulation/august2019

 

 

But those same people have kept telling us this for years and it never has - why should i believe them this time, plus net migration will not lower under any circumstances, because with the modern liberal values that we have now adopted, there is no way any party prepared to control it will ever get in, the genie is out of the bottle so forget controlled immigration, it ain't gonna happen.

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, feb1991blizzard said:

But those same people have kept telling us this for years and it never has - why should i believe them this time, plus net migration will not lower under any circumstances, because with the modern liberal values that we have now adopted, there is no way any party prepared to control it will ever get in, the genie is out of the bottle so forget controlled immigration, it ain't gonna happen.

Because age is an objective number... that's why it should be believed! The points made in 1995 are still stand it's just a matter of timing...

At what point is the UK overpopulated in the UK anyhow? Only 6% of UK land is built on, agricultural land meanwhile cover 69% of the UK. The Netherlands is just fine and that is more densely populated... I feel that other things then immigration are to blame for our issues but immigration is often made a scapegoat.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/i-mapped-population-density-across-europe-britain-isnt-crowded-think/

I say this because in the future we will face a problem with regards to the workforce. Old people will be retiring and there won't be enough young people to take their roles.  This is especially an issue in Japan for example.

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2018/11/26/the-challenges-of-japans-demography

As a result immigration is urgently needed to help Japan fill in the gaps.

So the issue I think is far more complicated then the issue of kids etc. and if we do something like stop immigration this will introduce its own problems as the UK faces an aging population in the future.

 

 

Edited by Quicksilver1989

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Posted (edited)

To be fair  I really don't think our country is overpopulated   after all only 6 percent of the country is were people live   it's the fact that we all live in densely populated towns and cities   sorry  just seen post above  which illustrates this point 

Edited by weirpig

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13 hours ago, Quicksilver1989 said:

Because age is an objective number... that's why it should be believed! The points made in 1995 are still stand it's just a matter of timing...

At what point is the UK overpopulated in the UK anyhow? Only 6% of UK land is built on, agricultural land meanwhile cover 69% of the UK. The Netherlands is just fine and that is more densely populated... I feel that other things then immigration are to blame for our issues but immigration is often made a scapegoat.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/i-mapped-population-density-across-europe-britain-isnt-crowded-think/

I say this because in the future we will face a problem with regards to the workforce. Old people will be retiring and there won't be enough young people to take their roles.  This is especially an issue in Japan for example.

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2018/11/26/the-challenges-of-japans-demography

As a result immigration is urgently needed to help Japan fill in the gaps.

So the issue I think is far more complicated then the issue of kids etc. and if we do something like stop immigration this will introduce its own problems as the UK faces an aging population in the future.

 

 

With specific regard to Scotland the gap between births and deaths has widened. The slow population growth is attributed, in the main, to immigration.

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/news/2019/scotlands-population-at-record-high-but-population-growth-has-slowed

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19 hours ago, Quicksilver1989 said:

Because age is an objective number... that's why it should be believed! The points made in 1995 are still stand it's just a matter of timing...

At what point is the UK overpopulated in the UK anyhow? Only 6% of UK land is built on, agricultural land meanwhile cover 69% of the UK. The Netherlands is just fine and that is more densely populated... I feel that other things then immigration are to blame for our issues but immigration is often made a scapegoat.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/i-mapped-population-density-across-europe-britain-isnt-crowded-think/

I say this because in the future we will face a problem with regards to the workforce. Old people will be retiring and there won't be enough young people to take their roles.  This is especially an issue in Japan for example.

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2018/11/26/the-challenges-of-japans-demography

As a result immigration is urgently needed to help Japan fill in the gaps.

So the issue I think is far more complicated then the issue of kids etc. and if we do something like stop immigration this will introduce its own problems as the UK faces an aging population in the future.

 

 

again you are talking from a young persons perspective...you have grown up with congested roads, housing cristis, nhs waiting times... us older buggers can remember when we could get a 'same day' doctors appointment if we needed one... we can remember uncongested roads, and valuable agrictultural land that wasnt being built on.

this country is over populated, either by birthrates, immigration, or selfish old buggers refusing to die! of which one day you will rank amongst the numbers.

building on agricultural land...the very land that kick started our countrys wealth (by it being fertile with a clement growing climate) after the black death .. would/is the most stupid thing we can do, especially if the population is increasing.. one day we might need that to grow our own food instead of importing it. to destroy it through building is the worst legacy we could leave our decendants.

on the world stage.... theres an unwritten natural law..... the population of any given species is directly connected to its environments ability to support it. this planet we seem so keen to destroy, can only support a finite number of people before, like a disease, we start irreparably and fatally injuring it.

imho, theres no time to waste hoping natural birth control will happen, because by then, itll be too late.

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oh and ps..... we might only have built on 6% of agricultural land.... but thats the best 6% as in the past settlements were founded right on the best land... thats why they are where they are. a huge % of undeveloped land is very low grade, cannot be farmed to produce much.

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1 hour ago, mushymanrob said:

again you are talking from a young persons perspective...you have grown up with congested roads, housing cristis, nhs waiting times... us older buggers can remember when we could get a 'same day' doctors appointment if we needed one... we can remember uncongested roads, and valuable agrictultural land that wasnt being built on.

this country is over populated, either by birthrates, immigration, or selfish old buggers refusing to die! of which one day you will rank amongst the numbers.

building on agricultural land...the very land that kick started our countrys wealth (by it being fertile with a clement growing climate) after the black death .. would/is the most stupid thing we can do, especially if the population is increasing.. one day we might need that to grow our own food instead of importing it. to destroy it through building is the worst legacy we could leave our decendants.

on the world stage.... theres an unwritten natural law..... the population of any given species is directly connected to its environments ability to support it. this planet we seem so keen to destroy, can only support a finite number of people before, like a disease, we start irreparably and fatally injuring it.

imho, theres no time to waste hoping natural birth control will happen, because by then, itll be too late.

I kind of agree with what is being said here but I think the issue is more complicated then overpopulation. Roads are much more congested because a much higher percentage of people now have cars compared to previous decades. NHS waiting times have also increased because the percentage of annual spending on the NHS since 2010 has dipped despite the aging population that we have. Holland do things much better then us and have an infrastructure that is far better than ours.

To an extent what determines overpopulation is the lifestyles people also lead. If we turn to much more sustainable energy use, less reliance on CO2, less plastic etc then the threshold for overpopulation becomes higher. You also have a point about building on current land though as I mentioned in a previous post 6% of our land is urban and 69% agricultural. 

My opinion in the end is that those who refer to overpopulation being a white elephant have a point given how much CO2 humans in the western world use up in their lifetime... however at the same time restricting already low birth rates won't solve anything. How can a country with such an aging population sustain themselves? Extending the retirement age wouldn't work IMO and people who have worked all their lives deserve that right.

Lowering fertility rates would be worse so that isn't the answer IMO, best we can do is improve current technologies and with respect to climate change... I think geoengineering may sadly be the answer though given timescales.

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23 hours ago, Quicksilver1989 said:

The reason for current population growth is not because current birth rates are too high, it is because people are living longer. 

 .

Don’t disagree. Having my poor mum living so far to 103 is a real strain. Hasn’t a clue who I am as the only surviving son. Rest all dead. Thought I was the chap from the pub last time I visited. Goodness knows where that comes from.

I know precisely what her thoughts were on the matter. Told me on a couple of occasions after she went  to see the old people in the local home, when she was in her mid 80’s, that if ever she was left stuck in a chair in a home not know what was going on please shoot her. Well mum you are and I can’t. 

What is the purpose of it all?? Particularly as she (I am) paying a care home fee (as she has some declining savings) that is somewhat more than those who don’t. I ponder how many more payments of a £1,000 per week I will have to make. That money would help so much the younger members of the family. 

Gosh I am sooo weary of it all. Had the pleasure of having several major operations and radio therapy in recent years. Not unusual for people if my age so one of life’s many experiences. But so tiring.

Is there solution to it all? Can’t imagine many would bit the bullet. 

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Posted (edited)
On 26/08/2019 at 20:11, Quicksilver1989 said:

Because age is an objective number... that's why it should be believed! The points made in 1995 are still stand it's just a matter of timing...

At what point is the UK overpopulated in the UK anyhow? Only 6% of UK land is built on, agricultural land meanwhile cover 69% of the UK. The Netherlands is just fine and that is more densely populated... I feel that other things then immigration are to blame for our issues but immigration is often made a scapegoat.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/i-mapped-population-density-across-europe-britain-isnt-crowded-think/

I say this because in the future we will face a problem with regards to the workforce. Old people will be retiring and there won't be enough young people to take their roles.  This is especially an issue in Japan for example.

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2018/11/26/the-challenges-of-japans-demography

As a result immigration is urgently needed to help Japan fill in the gaps.

So the issue I think is far more complicated then the issue of kids etc. and if we do something like stop immigration this will introduce its own problems as the UK faces an aging population in the future.

 

 

We never had a housing crisis until we opened the floodgates. It's easy & a cowards way to blame everything on the elderly who built this country after the war but now it's trendy for them to be scapegoats but another to say mass immigration is the real issue in a lot of our problems. Not everything but a lot. And as Feb says further up you can't move out & about these days (and it's not elderly I see everywhere either - mostly people below 65).

We haven't got a housing crisis either we have a population crisis. I find it very odd how parties like Labour, Lib Dumbs & Greens are all for immigration but are pro environment. But both issues contradict as you cannot especially on a small island like ours have mass immigration & an unspoilt countryside with the high demand for housing getting worse year on year. Our own people are having less kids than in the past so we can't blame them. I'm from a family of 10 kids which wasn't rare at all in the 1940s. Most of my own family & their friends usually stick to just 1 or 2 kids. One of our sons still has no kids & he's 37. But people from an immigrant background usually have double that on average or more. Hence the need for housing & more bedrooms. Which means a warmer environment with less greenery.

And all the brainwashing crap on the news about how racism is huge issue in this country either in sport or society as a whole is a load of twaddle - it's just to further push a lefty agenda, you can fool some but not everyone. If racism was so bad people wouldn't want to come to live here. It would soon get round the UK isn't welcoming. They come because it's a soft touch & play on their colour and/or religion to get what they want. Same is happening in Sweden another country with no backbone to say NO. Try living in somewhere like Russia where for example if you are black student you get asked what you're doing in the country.......nose to nose by the police.

Edited by Frost HoIIow

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The world has masses of space for all those who inhabit the planet, the question is distributions, wealth and resources. I think this thread shows clearly we don't have that right.  

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