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iapennell

THE FERREL CELL MESSING UP BRITAIN'S WINTER- AGAIN

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Hello. Apologies for my absence for several months- I have been busy with my new business!

global-circulation-cells.png

 

Those of you who have a basic grasp of meteorology will know that the large- scale circulation in both the Northern and Southern hemisphere's consists of three cells:

 1) The Hadley Cell- where air rises at the Equator over the hottest lands and ocean surfaces moves at high- levels towards the subtropics and descends in the subtropical high- pressure belts. Low- level north- east and south- east Trade Winds complete the circulation by bringing this air beack towards the Equator.

2) The Ferrel Cell- where air descends on the polewards flanks of the subtropical-highs and blows towards higher latitudes at lower levels. These winds, deflected by the coriolis effect cause surface south- westerlies in the Northern Hemisphere and surface north-westerlies in the Southern Hemisphere. This air then rises in the sub- polar low- pressure belts, rises and returns to the polewards flanks of the subtropical highs at high altitudes.

3) The Arctic/ Antarctic Cells- where air descends over frozen seas and lands near the North and South Pole's respectively, blows outward near the surface, rises on the polewards flank of the sub-polar lows and returns to the interior polar areas at high elevation.

The Hadley and Arctic/ Antarctic Cells are thermally direct, being driven by the principle of warm air rising and cool air sinking. The Ferrel Cell tries to operate in reverse and the only reason for it's existence is the fact that the Earth rotates and because constraints placed on the Global Circulation by the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum require that the extent and strength of surface Westerlies counterbalance that of easterlies in both high and low latitudes. 

The Ferrel Cell is not, perhaps a uniform feature of weather maps, as the weather- patterns in areas dominated by the Ferrel Cell are affected by individual deep depressions that track eastwards (usually between 50 and 75N in the Northern Hemisphere) and the ridges of high pressure that (usually) extend north from the subtropical- highs in between the passage of depressions further north: In the Northern Hemisphere persistent high- pressure over Siberia may block out the Ferrel Cell over much of northern Asia, but even here depressions skirting around the north edge of the high still demonstrate the Ferrel Cell is able to punch through cold-air anticyclones near the surface. The main feature of the Ferrel Cell, overall, is it's propensity to bring warmer air polewards at the surface over wide areas of mid- latitudes: It's reach is extensive and dominant over large areas of mid- latitudes.

The Ferrel Cell brings damp mild weather: The northwards movement of warmer air below and an equatorwards movement of colder air aloft means an unstable atmosphere prone to producing cloud and rain- certainly over the UK where south-westerlies blow off the North Atlantic. The cloud cover and persistent advection of mild air does mean- at this time of year- an absence of freezing temperatures; cloud, dampness and no frost has so totally dominated this month of December even in the north of England! If there were some major geo- engineering initiative that could weaken the Ferrel Cell enough at this time of year, those who like frosty snowy winter weather ought to favour it.

The Ferrel Cell, as I have mentioned, owes it's existence to a "need" for the frictional force of easterly winds in high and low latitudes to be counter-balanced by Westerlies elsewhere. Sadly, the Westerly atmospheric angular momentum (AAM) that the global winds pick up from the frictional interaction of the NE and SE Trade winds in the tropics and sub-tropics never magically drifts off into space (which would allow the Earth to slow down a bit- so we could fit more into 25 hour days) it always returns to the surface. The excess Westerly AAM is transferred polewards in the vicinity of the subtropical jet- stream- about 12 km up over 30N and 30S.

So Donald Trump needs to be persuaded to build a huge north- south 12-km-high wall in the Mojave Desert to intercept the subtropical jet-stream (his US-Mexico border wall is not going to be high enough and it would be orientated the wrong way), slowing it down so that this very high wall becomes the sink for Westerly AAM in the Northern Hemisphere. Without the "need" for so much of a sink for Westerly AAM elsewhere, there would be less mild south- westerlies encroaching Europe, less depressions in the North Atlantic and North Pacific and this would eliminate coastal erosion along the US and Canadian coasts as well as those of the UK and northern Europe.  Maybe Donald Trump could be persuaded to spend £1 trillion dollars to save on coastal erosion costs for the next century- maybe Britain could offer to give the USA Bermuda and all its coastal waters free of charge as an additional incentive! Think how many well -paid jobs that would provide for the USA 

We would have much more high -pressure in Britain to bring cold frosty autumn mornings and dry winters with hard frosts. Summers would be warm and sunny!  

It remains for me to wish all on here a happy and peaceful Christmas and all the best for 2019

Ian Pennell      

Edited by iapennell
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To add, there may be other (more practical) ways of weakening the Ferrel Westerlies- so we can perhaps consign persistently mild wet autumns/ winters in Britain to history. You are welcome to discuss any of the following:

1) A mile high wall (200 metres across) built along the west cost of Ireland, certainly this will catch the low- level jets that blow along warm and cold fronts. This would create a higher- up sink for Westerly AAM. Put wind-mills on the top of the wall to a) provide extra resistance to the wind and b) generate electricity for all of Ireland. Cost about £500 billion. Spending all the money Britain saves by not having to pay into the EU budget each year plus a Land Value Tax on high- value land/ property in Britain should pay for this over thirty years. The Irish should be eternally grateful for the jobs this will provide it's citizens and for the prospect of a drier climate with proper seasons into the bargain.

This measure would create a near- permanent upper level ridge over the UK, depressions would be diverted towards Iceland or south-eastwards towards Spain. It would sharply increase the likelihood of dry bright frosty weather in winter and warm dry weather in summer over the UK. The western Mediterranean may get more winter rainfall- reducing the risk of severe drought there. 

2) A large floating wall up to 100 metres deep extending east to west along latitude 50N from Cornwall to Newfoundland, made from large hollowed- out aluminium cubes. This may be a preferable option by stopping the Gulf Stream extending to high latitudes. The resulting cooling of the northern North Atlantic and Arctic Oceans would help the Arctic ice-cap to grow, rather than shrink. This greater reflectivity of the Arctic area would then help forestall global warming. Colder northern seas would also push the main baroclinic zones further south so that the Ferrel Westerlies give more winter rainfall to the parched Mediterranean and Middle East, whilst Britain and most of central and northern Europe get more very cold northerly and easterly airstreams bringing snow. The only drawback is that depression tracks would push further south throughout the summer too, leading to record cold wet summers across central and southern England. Western Scotland would get more bright but cool summer weather with north- east winds and a chillier drier climate would mean less midges!

Cost: £1 trillion up-front and the aluminium hollow cubes would need replacing every 20 years, at similar cost. Huge logistical problems.

3) A 7 km high wall extending north- south across the Tibetian Plateau, itself above 5 km high across an extensive area. It would cost over £800 billion. Logistical problems of getting all the building materials onto site in remote locations despite it being little over half the height as the Californian wall of 12 km high. Atop the wall, intercepting the subtropical jet- stream 12 km above sea- level sturdy win- mills could be erected and given the strength of the subtropical jet-stream in winter they could provide China with much of it's electricity. The wall would, of course, need to be at least 100 metres thick at the base to minimise the chance of it collapsing. As with the 12 km high wall in California, this wall would intercept the subtropical jet-stream, removing Westerly AAM from the atmosphere so that there is little "need" for Westerlies elsewhere in the northern Hemisphere.

4) A variant of (3), at a fraction of the cost: 10,000 huge steel poles ten metres' in diameter 100 metres apart in a north- south direction on the Tibetian Plateau, each joined together with beams and each extending 1 km down below ground- level and extending up to 12,000 metres above sea- level. At the top of each  8,000- metre tall pole there would be, facing west, ten very large steel "brushes" pointing outwards: Cost over £500 billion because of the huge amount of excavation needed to drill 10,000 ten-metre diametre holes 1000 metres down into the Earth. Then there's the small matter of manufacturing enough steel (probably requiring a steel-works set up on the Tibetian plateau) and the practicalities of employing enough people to work in bitter conditions stop this plateau. The same applies to (3).

5) Cover 10 million square kilometres of the equatorial Pacific and equatorial Atlantic Ocean (between 5N and 5S) with giant floating mirrors. This would cool the equatorial oceans, help make like bearable for millions who live in the steamy deep tropics and (most importantly) greatly weaken the Intertropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ) and with it, the Hadley Cells of both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres. Thus the NE and SE Trade Winds are greatly weakened and (with it) the creation of Westerly AAM to be transferred polewards aloft to maintain the mid- latitude Ferrel Cells in both Hemispheres. Britain, Ireland, New Zealand, British Columbia, France and southern Chile would all enjoy drier colder climates with proper winters. As an added bonus, the giant mirrors covering much of the equatorial Pacific and Atlantic, would reflect almost 100% of insolation straight back to space- from locations where the incident insolation year- round is strongest: This would help fight global warming. Unfortunately the cost would be immeasurable- £ several trillion, particularly as the giant mirrors would need replacing periodically!

If you have any other ideas as to how we could effectively fight the Ferrel Westerlies that wreck so many of our Christmasses do share them here! 

Have a great Christmas and a prosperous 2019.

Ian Pennell         

       

 

Edited by iapennell
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21 minutes ago, iapennell said:

To add, there may be other (more practical) ways of weakening the Ferrel Westerlies- so we can perhaps consign persistently mild wet autumns/ winters in Britain to history. You are welcome to discuss any of the following:

1) A mile high wall (200 metres across) built along the west cost of Ireland, certainly this will catch the low- level jets that blow along warm and cold fronts. This would create a higher- up sink for Westerly AAM. Put wind-mills on the top of the wall to a) provide extra resistance to the wind and b) generate electricity for all of Ireland. Cost about £500 billion. Spending all the money Britain saves by not having to pay into the EU budget each year plus a Land Value Tax on high- value land/ property in Britain should pay for this over thirty years. The Irish should be eternally grateful for the jobs this will provide it's citizens and for the prospect of a drier climate with proper seasons into the bargain.

This measure would create a near- permanent upper level ridge over the UK, depressions would be diverted towards Iceland or south-eastwards towards Spain. It would sharply increase the likelihood of dry bright frosty weather in winter and warm dry weather in summer over the UK. The western Mediterranean may get more winter rainfall- reducing the risk of severe drought there. 

2) A large floating wall up to 100 metres deep extending east to west along latitude 50N from Cornwall to Newfoundland, made from large hollowed- out aluminium cubes. This may be a preferable option by stopping the Gulf Stream extending to high latitudes. The resulting cooling of the northern North Atlantic and Arctic Oceans would help the Arctic ice-cap to grow, rather than shrink. This greater reflectivity of the Arctic area would then help forestall global warming. Colder northern seas would also push the main baroclinic zones further south so that the Ferrel Westerlies give more winter rainfall to the parched Mediterranean and Middle East, whilst Britain and most of central and northern Europe get more very cold northerly and easterly airstreams bringing snow. The only drawback is that depression tracks would push further south throughout the summer too, leading to record cold wet summers across central and southern England. Western Scotland would get more bright but cool summer weather with north- east winds and a chillier drier climate would mean less midges!

Cost: £1 trillion up-front and the aluminium hollow cubes would need replacing every 20 years, at similar cost. Huge logistical problems.

3) A 7 km high wall extending north- south across the Tibetian Plateau, itself above 5 km high across an extensive area. It would cost over £800 billion. Logistical problems of getting all the building materials onto site in remote locations despite it being little over half the height as the Californian wall of 12 km high. Atop the wall, intercepting the subtropical jet- stream 12 km above sea- level sturdy win- mills could be erected and given the strength of the subtropical jet-stream in winter they could provide China with much of it's electricity. The wall would, of course, need to be at least 100 metres thick at the base to minimise the chance of it collapsing. As with the 12 km high wall in California, this wall would intercept the subtropical jet-stream, removing Westerly AAM from the atmosphere so that there is little "need" for Westerlies elsewhere in the northern Hemisphere.

4) A variant of (3), at a fraction of the cost: 10,000 huge steel poles ten metres' in diameter 100 metres apart in a north- south direction on the Tibetian Plateau, each joined together with beams and each extending 1 km down below ground- level and extending up to 12,000 metres above sea- level. At the top of each  8,000- metre tall pole there would be, facing west, ten very large steel "brushes" pointing outwards: Cost over £500 billion because of the huge amount of excavation needed to drill 10,000 ten-metre diametre holes 1000 metres down into the Earth. Then there's the small matter of manufacturing enough steel (probably requiring a steel-works set up on the Tibetian plateau) and the practicalities of employing enough people to work in bitter conditions stop this plateau. The same applies to (3).

5) Cover 10 million square kilometres of the equatorial Pacific and equatorial Atlantic Ocean (between 5N and 5S) with giant floating mirrors. This would cool the equatorial oceans, help make like bearable for millions who live in the steamy deep tropics and (most importantly) greatly weaken the Intertropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ) and with it, the Hadley Cells of both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres. Thus the NE and SE Trade Winds are greatly weakened and (with it) the creation of Westerly AAM to be transferred polewards aloft to maintain the mid- latitude Ferrel Cells in both Hemispheres. Britain, Ireland, New Zealand, British Columbia, France and southern Chile would all enjoy drier colder climates with proper winters. As an added bonus, the giant mirrors covering much of the equatorial Pacific and Atlantic, would reflect almost 100% of insolation straight back to space- from locations where the incident insolation year- round is strongest: This would help fight global warming. Unfortunately the cost would be immeasurable- £ several trillion, particularly as the giant mirrors would need replacing periodically!

If you have any other ideas as to how we could effectively fight the Ferrel Westerlies that wreck so many of our Christmasses do share them here! 

Have a great Christmas and a prosperous 2019.

Ian Pennell         

       

 

As Irelands  debt per cap is around 350 thousand euros  it might not go down well with the banks 😁 lol gravitaional forces would  be more than structural strength of concrete ,fun read tho 😁

Edited by Mokidugway
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I really love your idea of cooling the Equatorial Pacific Ocean and Equatorial Atlantic Ocean.  Imagine the great shift from the Hyper Ninos and pesky Ninos of today to Hyper Ninas!

Edited by Lettucing Gutted

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12 hours ago, Lettucing Gutted said:

I really love your idea of cooling the Equatorial Pacific Ocean and Equatorial Atlantic Ocean.  Imagine the great shift from the Hyper Ninos and pesky Ninos of today to Hyper Ninas!

@Lettucing Gutted Firstly I hope that you are having a good Christmas with your family, all the best for 2019.

 

Indeed, the 10 million square kilometres of giant floating mirrors over the equatorial oceans would be effective (and may help to reverse global warming), but the cost of ££ trillions would make this plan a non- starter. Even if governments around the World doubled their tax- rates (which would plunge the World into deep recession and actually result in less revenue) it would not be enough to pay for such a huge geo- engineering scheme.

A much cheaper (and almost as effective) alternative plan would be to manufacture trillions of tonnes of white paint to spray on a large belt of central Africa (all land between 5N and 5S) and northernmost South America (again, all land between 5N and 5S). This would be an oil- based paint that would not wash off in water. Millions of Africans, Brazilians, Colombians and currently hard- up Venezuelans would be paid to manufacture and spray this paint. They would be able to buy food from areas not covered in white paint and the economies of the other areas growing such food would thrive. The ecological impact of this massive Equatorial Land Painting exercise could be mitigated by evacuating a whole range of animals from the Amazon (and elsewhere) to locations further north and south.

The result would be much solar energy reflected away from Equatorial regions, leading to a weakening of the ITCZ and a big weakening of the NE and SE Trades: this in turn would greatly reduce the "Need" for Westerlies in higher latitudes to counter- balance tropical easterlies. This would lead to colder frostier winters and warmer drier summers in the UK, Ireland, British Columbia- and other areas that suffer from too much persistent wind and rain during their winter half- years!

So much white paint reflecting the Sun's heat from regions of the World where it is strongest would also counter Global Warming- even allowing for the fact that the mining of raw materials and manufacture of so much white paint would emit large amounts of CO2!

Cost of this project: £500 billion initially. Huge purpose-built factories would need to be built to make the paint (which could be done locally) and materials mined extensively to manufacture enough paint. There would also be side effects- brightening (and thus cooling) the deep tropics so as to weaken the ITCZ would lead to the virtual elimination of rainfall in the deep tropics and severe droughts would grip many areas on a scale not previously seen. The Amazon would be much drier and that could adversely impact the local ecology over a wide area. Perhaps, as part of such a big project, extensive water- desalination units would need to be built and set up, so as to mitigate the effects of drought (the impact of growing food in such areas to feed people in regions covered in white paint and to help local populations and ecological systems). The final cost is likely to exceed £1 trillion, and rather more when allowing for impacts on regional economies!

Another much cheaper plan that would impact directly on the Westerlies would be the planting of forests on a grand scale in western Scotland, Ireland, British Columbia and Washington State. Artificial trees could be manufactured and "planted" in the colder windier locations where trees cannot grow naturally but where they would be most valuable in intercepting the Ferrel Westerlies (and acting as a better sink to Westerly AAM); special cup- shaped frames up to 500 metres above the surface with the "cups" facing west should be "planted" along the tops of the Rocky Mountains above 3000 metres' elevation and on the highest northernmost parts of the Tibetian Plateau (i.e. those areas likely to get strong Westerly winds in winter). Millions of such "trees" also need to be planted into the Rockall Rise (where the North Atlantic is relatively shallow) with thie "cups" up to 500 metres above the ocean surface and pointing south-west to absorb the full force of Atlantic gales and thereby weakeing depressions before they bring their wind, rain and mild south-westerlies to the UK.

Cost: £500 billion needed to do this on a grand enough scale to seriously weaken the Ferrel Westerlies to the extent that Britain's  Winters get reliably cold enough and dry enough for folk on the Netweather Forum!  Weakening the south-westerlies blowing into the NE Atlantic would also have the added benefit of weakening the North Atlantic drift which flows northwards into the Arctic- helping to preserve the reflective Arctic pack-ice and thus to help prevent Global Warming!              

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The cheapest (and most economically practical) solution to dismembering the dratted Ferrel Westerlies would be the creation of millions of tonnes of sulphur-dioxide to be released from high- flying aircraft in the Stratosphere along the Equator. There it would substantially reduce solar input to the surface, weakening the ITCZ and the NE and SE Trades (and with it the frictional production of Westerly AAM to be transferred to higher latitudes). By putting SO2 into the stratosphere, it is above the elevation where rain or snow could wash it out of the atmosphere.

If SO2 is considered a bit risky for ecological reasons, billion of tonnes of very finely powdered salt (extracted from sea water) distributed along the Equatorial Stratosphere would also help block out the Sun's heat where it was most intense. This too would lead to a weakening of the global winds: It might even help stop global warming as well as lead to Weaker Westerlies (with frosty snowy easterly and northerly winds being given a better chance) in the UK in winter. 

Without any major excavations, or manufacture of materials (both SO2- from volcanoes, and salt occur naturally) the cost comes down to around £100 billion. It's just a matter of getting enough modified aircraft into the Stratosphere with finely powdered salt (or SO2) to reduce the heating of equatorial lands and seas, so that the Global Winds are weakened. 

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15 minutes ago, iapennell said:

The cheapest (and most economically practical) solution to dismembering the dratted Ferrel Westerlies would be the creation of millions of tonnes of sulphur-dioxide to be released from high- flying aircraft in the Stratosphere along the Equator. There it would substantially reduce solar input to the surface, weakening the ITCZ and the NE and SE Trades (and with it the frictional production of Westerly AAM to be transferred to higher latitudes). By putting SO2 into the stratosphere, it is above the elevation where rain or snow could wash it out of the atmosphere.

If SO2 is considered a bit risky for ecological reasons, billion of tonnes of very finely powdered salt (extracted from sea water) distributed along the Equatorial Stratosphere would also help block out the Sun's heat where it was most intense. This too would lead to a weakening of the global winds: It might even help stop global warming as well as lead to Weaker Westerlies (with frosty snowy easterly and northerly winds being given a better chance) in the UK in winter. 

Without any major excavations, or manufacture of materials (both SO2- from volcanoes, and salt occur naturally) the cost comes down to around £100 billion. It's just a matter of getting enough modified aircraft into the Stratosphere with finely powdered salt (or SO2) to reduce the heating of equatorial lands and seas, so that the Global Winds are weakened. 

How about this as an idea, a huge sheet of some sort of material which completely blocks out the sun altogether, and could be moved with a remote control to constantly block out the sun, thus over the course of not very long, freezing cold temperatures would engulf the Earth.

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9 minutes ago, bluearmy said:

This thread is much weirder than I imagined when I opened it ....

One only has to read who opened it!

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Why don't we simply reduce our dependence on fossil fuels?:unknw:

Edited by Ed Stone
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9 minutes ago, johnholmes said:

One only has to read who opened it!

@johnholmesMost folk on Netweather's wonderful Forum express their frustration at the mild south-west winds that have come to predominate most winter's in recent years, particularly December when folk are hoping for something a bit more "Christmassy". What is "Christmassy" about endless mild weather, wind and wet?

Surely, a discussion of (possible) projects to help reduce the likelihood of future winters being so relentlessly mild and wet in Britain (and other locations on the west coasts of continents at mid- latitudes), to provide some assurance of at least one decent cold spell in each winter whilst ameliorating Global Warming is a discussion whose time has come. I admit that most of the ideas mooted would stretch Government budgets around the World (maybe a global Crowd-funded initiative would be required) and some would be impractical but I did want to get folk thinking about the feasibility of some of the measures- and to discuss others.

The root of the Problem with the Winter Weather in Britain (from a Coldie's perspective) is the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum on our rotating Earth and the logical Need (that follows on from this) for the atmosphere to rotate with the Earth around it's axis of rotation: Easterly winds in the tropics, subtropics and at very high latitudes must be counterbalanced by Westerlies (or to be more precise, the force of all the easterly- quarter winds in the world must be counterracted by that of Westerlies). If there are practical ways of increasing the sink for Westerly AAM in other ways by increasing the surface friction of the underlying surface, that would weaken the Westerlies: That would increase the chances of more agreeable weather in Britain.

Of course, there are people who don't like cold weather but a number of such folk don't like wind and rain either: Frosty weather in winter kills bugs and reduces the likelihood of pestilence, less storms mean less coastal erosion and such folk could be persuaded of the benefits of colder but drier weather with less bugs. That's assuming that there are geo-engineering means of modifying the Westerlies that are affordable and practical.

All the best this Christmas and in 2019.      

 

1 minute ago, Ed Stone said:

Why don't we simply reduce our dependence on fossil fuels?:unknw:

@Ed Stone Indeed, why don't we? The project of planting millions more trees (including artificial ones, that also take in CO2 on the Rockies) would also help remove CO2 from the atmosphere and help to eliminate further Global Warming. 

Sadly, governments around the World are taking control of CO2 less seriously: In particular the USA has pulled out of the Paris Agreement and China is building lots more coal-fired power stations so mankind will probably have to consider some sort of geo-engineering project sooner or later. Plans to put dust or sulphur dioxide into the Stratosphere have been given consideration as a means of reflecting sunlight from the Earth and keeping the Earth cool (see here: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/511016/a-cheap-and-easy-plan-to-stop-global-warming/). This would be most effective in the Stratosphere at low latitudes where it could help weaken the Hadley Cell and, in the process, lessen the transfer of Westerly AAM to higher latitudes (and it's the latter that causes us grief each Christmas).

In seriousness, there does need to be a greater incentive for developing (and other) countries to reduce carbon emissions further, like carbon credits but there being much more of an incentive for countries to change course. Governments around the World will not willingly tax their citizens more and tip their economies into recession in the name of fighting global warming, which is precisely why the governments of the USA, China and India are dragging their feet. Money talks, so an organisation like the IMF should dole out grants (not loans) to countries that reduce their CO2 blue-print. If the IMF won't do it then the British Government could build up a big chest of £1 trillion in five years to help our own economy become carbon neutral but also incentivise other countries to do so. As to how to build up such a War Chest to fight Global Warming a global "Crowd-funding" Programme, issuing Cool Earth Bonds to the British people and filling the gap by selling the Shetland Islands to Norway- so that the Norwegians give us some of their Sovereign Wealth Funds for such a good cause (how serious are we) and cutting (other) Foreign Aid?

If the objection of many countries to being serious about fighting Global Warming is that they want their economies to grow to their citizens have better lives, we find ways to compensate them for their economic losses if they reduce CO2 emissions, or indeed do other things to help mitigate global warming. Putting sulphur or dust into the Stratosphere over the Equator is a possibility, the ecological down-sides of acid rain are greatly eliminated when SO2 is put into the Stratosphere- above the height of clouds that precipitate rain or snow: Dust and sulphur in the Stratosphere would help cool the global climate and weaken the global winds- a win win for those who hate mild wet weather in Britain! Planting trees on a massive scale is another possibility, and if these are planted at mid-latitudes they help weaken the Westerlies by greatly increasing the friction of the surface. If we were able to pay other countries to do some of these things (and reduce CO2 emissions) we might get some of our cold frosty winters back!

Whatever the weather, I wish you and your family all the best over the Christmas period and a prosperous 2019.    

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Ian how possible do you think, in genuine scientific terms your post is?

Surely, a discussion of (possible) projects..............

this plan has more scientific holes in it, in my view, and of many far more learned folk than me, than a swiss cheese!

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/511016/a-cheap-and-easy-plan-to-stop-global-warming/

Playing around with our atmosphere rather than tackling the actual cause of increasing temperatures is no way forward. Nor any more likely to get any widespread approval than the problems now.

And all the best to yourself for the remainder of this Christmas period and 2019.

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25 minutes ago, johnholmes said:

Ian how possible do you think, in genuine scientific terms your post is?

Surely, a discussion of (possible) projects..............

this plan has more scientific holes in it, in my view, and of many far more learned folk than me, than a swiss cheese!

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/511016/a-cheap-and-easy-plan-to-stop-global-warming/

Playing around with our atmosphere rather than tackling the actual cause of increasing temperatures is no way forward. Nor any more likely to get any widespread approval than the problems now.

And all the best to yourself for the remainder of this Christmas period and 2019.

@johnholmes All of the proposals mooted above have glaring problems with them, not least the financial costs and possible adverse side- effects. The SO2 solution could cause disruption to the ozone layer and although greatly reduced by putting the SO2 it in the Stratosphere, some of it could find it's way into the troposphere leading to possible acid rain or snow (that risk is not 0%). Covering the equatorial oceans with giant floating mirrors would upset a good deal of marine life in the areas affected.

The alternative is that we don't do anything. Carbon dioxide levels continue to increase and (notwithstanding that we may be at the start of a Maunder Minimum type period with a quiet Sun and cooler global temperatures for a time) in 25 to 30 years' time global temperatures will be such that the West Antarctic and Greenland ice-sheets start to melt rapidly, methane will be released from the thawing tundra...and it will soon be too late to prevent major ecological crises far worse than a possible bit of acid rain or the renewed Ozone Hole could cause.

In the meantime Britons will be faced with plenty more naff winters with wind and rain. Coastal storms will get bigger and coastal erosion a serious threat to countries such as the UK, Norway, Canada and Ireland. Each December we face more gloom with depressions lining up to pass south of Iceland (there is a likelihood of some colder winters from 2020 to 2035 due to the Quiet Sun but this will still be hit and miss).

There will be more Climate Summits but, since governments around the World are not willing to impoverish their populations to "Save the Planet" not much will happen to CO2 emissions. In the longer term our winters will get worse (i.e more persistent mild, wet and windy) and Coldies will be tearing their hair out in despair- "If only something were done about it!". But nothing will get done about it because any discussion about geo-engineering always gets shot down in flames.

Millions of cold- weather lovers, who would like their Christmases to be snowy and sparkly (and those who hope for such weather at some point each Winter) will suffer exasperation! In 2035 Coldies will still be looking at the Weather Charts on Netweather Forum at a High in the NE Atlantic in January, hoping it will edge just a bit further north to encourage cold easterlies: They will have their hopes dashed as (close to the forecast time) the High collapses south- to be west of Spain and those Damp Mild Ferrel Westerlies blow in 'round the top to affect the UK.

Snap-shot of the future: January 2045- A deep depression (one of several so far in winter 2044/2045) pushes over the Faeroe Islands with a central pressure of 916 mb whilst the Mediterranean High is 1040 mb over Lisbon. Savage gales and torrential rain batter Britain's coasts with a full moon also leading to high tides. Huge waves over- power the small town of Stromness at the south-west end of the mainland Orkney Islands and several houses collapse into the raging North Atlantic. Over 220 local Orcadians are confirmed dead. Meanwhile, the River Clyde overflows its banks, helped by over a foot of rain on the Scottish Southern Uplands in 24 hours and the storm surge off the Scottish Coast. Sea- levels globally have risen one metre in the last year and catastrophic flooding has been widespread. The massively-flooding River Clyde combined with destructive gales has left over 100 Glaswegians dead.....This disastrous episode follows last summers record heatwave (temperatures topped 40C in London in July) that has led to 25,000 excess deaths in the UK. This was the largest weather-related cause of death over a short time period in Britain's history........If only action had been taken sooner to prevent such weather-related catastrophes which has affected many countries around the World over the last twelve months. Unfortunately a collective amnesia and fear of doing anything seems to have gripped the governments of the USA, China and other countries around the World so that they could not contemplate any sort of action to prevent a global Climate Disaster- whilst CO2 levels (now at over 600 ppm by volume) continue their march upwards.            

 

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I've missed your posts Ian. Welcome back.

Do you know how to stop the Balkans stealing snow from Central Europe by any chance? A deflector shield over Ukraine?

Edited by AderynCoch
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1 minute ago, AderynCoch said:

I've missed ypur pists Ian. Welcome back.

Do you know how to stop the Balkans stealing snow from Central Europe by any chance? A deflector shield over Ukraine?

Seems as it is Christmas, I decided to come back to wish all on here a "Happy Christmas". I have been busy the last few months.

If there was some way of weakening the Westerlies that blow in winter into western Europe, it would increase the likelihood of persistent snow-cover and very low temperatures in winter across the continent. I was shocked to see just how mild it was right across Germany and into Austria over the last week. 14C in parts of Germany. Those Ferrel Westerlies do need curbing! 

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A giant freezer with the door left open, just off the sw coast sounds just as plausible! 

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1 minute ago, Rambo said:

A giant freezer with the door left open, just off the sw coast sounds just as plausible! 

The next best thing might be a giant pump to pump all the near- freezing water deep down in the north Atlantic up to the surface. With the surface waters of the North Atlantic several degrees colder that would at least increase the chance of the Westerlies being cold enough to bring snow to much of the country.  

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Perhaps we could modify ocean currents in the north Atlantic.  That damn Gulf Stream and North Atlantic Drift make the ocean much warmer than it would be.  If we find a way to disrupt those troublemakers any winds that blow off the Atlantic will be much cooler.

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2 minutes ago, SJ NM said:

Perhaps we could modify ocean currents in the north Atlantic.  That damn Gulf Stream and North Atlantic Drift make the ocean much warmer than it would be.  If we find a way to disrupt those troublemakers any winds that blow off the Atlantic will be much cooler.

See Project (2) about the Large Floating Wall along the North Atlantic from Cornwall to Newfoundland (near top of this thread). This would stop the Gulf Stream, help cool the northern North Atlantic and encourage depressions to take a more southerly track towards western Europe. That would increase the likelihood of cold and snowfall brought in on icy northerly or easterly winds. If the North Atlantic north of 50N was colder we would (of course) get snow and freezing temperatures on westerly winds too!

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2 minutes ago, iapennell said:

See Project (2) about the Large Floating Wall along the North Atlantic from Cornwall to Newfoundland (near top of this thread). This would stop the Gulf Stream, help cool the northern North Atlantic and encourage depressions to take a more southerly track towards western Europe. That would increase the likelihood of cold and snowfall brought in on icy northerly or easterly winds. If the North Atlantic north of 50N was colder we would (of course) get snow and freezing temperatures on westerly winds too!

I admit I missed that part.  Thanks for pointing it out.

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3 minutes ago, AderynCoch said:

Dropping a shedload of ice cubes in the North Atlantic is my proposal.

That is do-able. There's the Greenland Ice-cap just a bit further north -to be used for that very purpose. 

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Setting-up a quantum interrupter field, between Earth and Sol, ought to do the trick...If the 'grid' is fitted with adjustable wavelength attenuators, incoming solar radiation can be modified as required?

And all that can be achieved whilst listening to Vogon poetry!

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