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On 16/11/2018 at 14:16, Sugarloaf80 said:

I'm going, I don't have any piercings, I have a scientific background, a good career and a nice family home.  I also have children.  I have spent most of my working life aware of climate change and the science.  I have spent my whole life trying to do my little bit, taken part in protests, write to my MP, sign petitions etc, even support people taking the government to court over this.  I have now realise that all this has been to no avail and I see that carbon emissions are still rising and there is a realistic threat, even a likely threat that the world my children will inhabit will be far more turbulent than the one we enjoy today.  When famine, drought, wildfires, flooding happen people will be forced to move so it is not just the climate but the social impacts our children will have to deal with.  So by all means call me crazy, mock me and the 1000s of others there who are only acting based on what the science is telling us.  I hope the science is wrong and I hope that we are doing this for nothing, but it seems to me that we have few other choices left to us.  By the way I've never been imprisoned or arrested before and it is not something I consider doing lightly but we have got the the point where it is now or never.  I am prepared to risk my liberty, my career and my comfortable lifestyle.  I can assure you many of the people who are involved are in similar situations to me and are having to wrestle with the idea of making sacrifices now to avert catastrophe  We also as a country should be leading the way, we are wealthy, educated and have always stood up well in a crisis.  If we don't act how can we expect others to.  

Good for you!!! I share you thinking.

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Am a bit of a loss with this debate. Firstly, because I don't get the name-calling and mudslinging, how does that help? But secondly and more importantly, I just can't understand how much more ev

The IPBES Global Assessment on biodiversity was released yesterday at https://www.ipbes.net/ and makes grim reading. It lists climate change as an increasing factor in the state of life on our planet.

It's amazing really how you continue to miss the point, I don't think anyone is saying climate change isn't caused by humans in some way, but it's not the sole cause, there are other factor at play, s

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50 minutes ago, weirpig said:

They even brought a boat from the otherside of the country via a truck   they have already smashed up the shell building     and the city is packed with middle class white people prancing around with flowers in there hair   lol  might go down to have a laugh    

Short-term pain for long-term gain...Isn't that what we're always told, when being encouraged to partake in a wee bit of self harm? So who cares if a building gets damaged? Unlike the damage being done to our planet, it only takes a minute to replace a scratched fascia...

Sometimes, a little perspective can come in handy...?

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3 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

Short-term pain for long-term gain...Isn't that what we're always told, when being encouraged to partake in a wee bit of self harm? So who cares if a building get damaged? Unlike the damage being done to our planet, it only takes a minute to replace a scratched fascia...

Sometimes, a little perspective can come in handy...?

but why do you have to deface the building with graffiti and smash the front doors etc?? once people start doing that they lose all credibility IMO..maybe they should go and smash up the embassy buildings of China, India and the USA if they really want to hammer home the point?

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6 minutes ago, cheeky_monkey said:

but why do you have to deface the building with graffiti and smash the front doors etc?? once people start doing that they lose all credibility IMO..maybe they should go and smash up the embassy buildings of China, India and the USA if they really want to hammer home the point?

Or maybe they should join the multinationals in smashing up the entire planet? A bit of graffiti or a moribund planet, unfit for human habitation? It's a tough one, I'll give you that!?

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Just now, cheeky_monkey said:

but why do you have to deface the building with graffiti and smash the front doors etc?? once people start doing that they lose all credibility IMO..maybe they should go and smash up the embassy buildings of China, India and the USA if they really want to hammer home the point?

If it's wrong to 'smash up' shell, how is it OK to smash up an embassy? I think you're applying your values - which is just what all protestors and all of us, do.

Anyway, how should they protest? By not protesting at all? By doing something like the suffragettes did? By just marching? I really don't know.

But, I'm sure (because I know at least one on the march) such people do live according to their words. And I do think carrying on as we are (and the trends are more pollution, more consumption of finite resources, and a ever faster pace of planetary despoilment) surely isn't the answer. Unless ever more concrete, tarmac, heat, pollution and a ever greater loss of planetary life be ones desire.

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Hi Dev!

In our small way ,in our time across various climate forums, we both did our best to highlight just how important climate action is (and try and show the 'Paid Deniers' for the charlatans they were!).and that we need act NOW!

Well, now we are here, nearly two decades of inaction later ......no ,not inaction as our yearly GHG outputs show us! .....we are now facing a whole set of very rude shocks/Cascade events that hold the potential to impact Billions of lives.

If anything the commitment/actions of the XR will again ignite serious debate in Govt.

I know of one Political Party with a large enough following, and Parliamentary presence, to actually try to push for the level and scale of Social change needed to make a difference at this late stage?

They appear to talk the talk but will they show us they can walk the walk?

 

But then if Yamal is on time and does go pop! over summer (giving us the opportunity to see if there are any migratory pathways from the 'pingo like structures' to the significant reserves of 'Natural Gas' that Russia currently exploits?) folk might be seeing a very real event occurring that has been directly forced by' human climate forcings' across the far North and this may well prove to be an even bigger advert for the validity of XR and bring better understanding to why they feel it necessary to take direct action? 

Edited by Gray-Wolf
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8 minutes ago, Gray-Wolf said:

Hi Dev!

In our small way ,in our time across various climate forums, we both did our best to highlight just how important climate action is (and try and show the 'Paid Deniers' for the charlatans they were!).and that we need act NOW!

Well, now we are here, nearly two decades of inaction later ......no ,not inaction as our yearly GHG outputs show us! .....we are now facing a whole set of very rude shocks/Cascade events that hold the potential to impact Billions of lives.

If anything the commitment/actions of the XR will again ignite serious debate in Govt.

I know of one Political Party with a large enough following, and Parliamentary presence, to actually try to push for the level and scale of Social change needed to make a difference at this late stage?

They appear to talk the talk but will they show us they can walk the walk?

 

But then if Yamal is on time and does go pop! over summer (giving us the opportunity to see if there are any migratory pathways from the 'pingo like structures' to the significant reserves of 'Natural Gas' that Russia currently exploits?) folk might be seeing a very real event occurring that has been directly forced by' human climate forcings' across the far North and this may well prove to be an even bigger advert for the validity of XR and bring better understanding to why they feel it necessary to take direct action? 

We've been here before. We don't need socialism, we need to do what needs to be done and that is simply to reduce our impact on the planet - to reduce ghg emissions and stop treating the planet as if it's a cornucopian resource. Social engineering doesn't matter, what matters is to have a planet where you can carry out social engineering...horse first then cart...

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I'm sorry Dev but I cannot see the scale of change required without ditching the current Capitalist demands on the Planet.

Maybe we should park this and then, if Yamal is 'poorly plumbed' and the studies undertaken by Shakova /Semiletov are ball park, we can re-engage as to the scale of changes we need commit to, right now, and which is the best model for our planet to adopt to service those demands?

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1 hour ago, Gray-Wolf said:

I'm sorry Dev but I cannot see the scale of change required without ditching the current Capitalist demands on the Planet.

Maybe we should park this and then, if Yamal is 'poorly plumbed' and the studies undertaken by Shakova /Semiletov are ball park, we can re-engage as to the scale of changes we need commit to, right now, and which is the best model for our planet to adopt to service those demands?

Somehow it's got to be got into people's heads that (for it to sustain us) the planet's atmosphere isn't a dustbin, it's surface needs to be green and it's oceans blue. That is all.

Socialism is (imo) peripheral to that necessity.

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30 minutes ago, Devonian said:

Somehow it's got to be got into people's heads that (for it to sustain us) the planet's atmosphere isn't a dustbin, it's surface needs to be green and it's oceans blue. That is all.

Socialism is (imo) peripheral to that necessity.

I agree, Dev -- I don't see how Socialism would necessarily make much difference; it's hearts & minds that matter, not which 'ism' we choose to adopt. IMO, the only way forward is the Green Way?

Edited by Ed Stone
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2 hours ago, Devonian said:

If it's wrong to 'smash up' shell, how is it OK to smash up an embassy? I think you're applying your values - which is just what all protestors and all of us, do.

Anyway, how should they protest? By not protesting at all? By doing something like the suffragettes did? By just marching? I really don't know.

But, I'm sure (because I know at least one on the march) such people do live according to their words. And I do think carrying on as we are (and the trends are more pollution, more consumption of finite resources, and a ever faster pace of planetary despoilment) surely isn't the answer. Unless ever more concrete, tarmac, heat, pollution and a ever greater loss of planetary life be ones desire.

what im saying if you want to drive your point home by smashing up or defacing buildings..why not do it on the door steps of the big three countries that are driving climate change??

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32 minutes ago, cheeky_monkey said:

what im saying if you want to drive your point home by smashing up or defacing buildings..why not do it on the door steps of the big three countries that are driving climate change??

Ahh, I see what you're getting at. So, you're not condemning the actions.

Erm, no, I don't know why they didn't go to certain embassies. I suspect because that sort of thing can get very messy, and that they would be prevented from getting to such places by the police. And, protests like today's can only happen in free and open countries like ours - and in a way such protests are a celebration and a promotion of those values and freedoms. That such protests would be cracked down upon ruthlessly in places China to me is just another example of how urgent and how difficult (or that its urgent because it is, (in the sense the solutions are easy, but getting them done not)  difficult) this problem is. I think the marchers sense that.

 

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1 hour ago, Devonian said:

Ahh, I see what you're getting at. So, you're not condemning the actions.

Erm, no, I don't know why they didn't go to certain embassies. I suspect because that sort of thing can get very messy, and that they would be prevented from getting to such places by the police. And, protests like today's can only happen in free and open countries like ours - and in a way such protests are a celebration and a promotion of those values and freedoms. That such protests would be cracked down upon ruthlessly in places China to me is just another example of how urgent and how difficult (or that its urgent because it is, (in the sense the solutions are easy, but getting them done not)  difficult) this problem is. I think the marchers sense that.

 

"It can get very messy"?

According to some the earth is in such a mess anyway, so what is stopping them, cant they even try? Don't focus on the 1% global emission country(UK) .,.... try to impact, do something against the actual countries that are killing the planet!

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Unrestrained international capitalism and neoliberalism have both proven themselves ten times over to be completely incompatible with anything green or environmentally conscious. Putting the responsibility for this climate mess on those at the bottom of the Capitalist pyramid is reprehensible, and the media must make it clear who is really to blame. We can start off with Trump and his sycophants of multinational elites.

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3 hours ago, Devonian said:

Ahh, I see what you're getting at. So, you're not condemning the actions.

Erm, no, I don't know why they didn't go to certain embassies. I suspect because that sort of thing can get very messy, and that they would be prevented from getting to such places by the police. And, protests like today's can only happen in free and open countries like ours - and in a way such protests are a celebration and a promotion of those values and freedoms. That such protests would be cracked down upon ruthlessly in places China to me is just another example of how urgent and how difficult (or that its urgent because it is, (in the sense the solutions are easy, but getting them done not)  difficult) this problem is. I think the marchers sense that.

 

Exactly my point...nothing wrong with protesting..but trying to shut down London etc when as someone said the UK contribution is minuscule..unless you take it to the places that are driving the problem then ultimately you are ***** into the wind

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8 hours ago, cheeky_monkey said:

Exactly my point...nothing wrong with protesting..but trying to shut down London etc when as someone said the UK contribution is minuscule..unless you take it to the places that are driving the problem then ultimately you are ***** into the wind

It's an old quote but it's true that 'a journey starts with a single step'. Not many places in this world allow protest.  These protestors are doing what they can. They can't start a war with China, they can try to raise awareness. Yes, single steps, but better (IMO) than nothing.

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9 hours ago, parrotingfantasist said:

Unrestrained international capitalism and neoliberalism have both proven themselves ten times over to be completely incompatible with anything green or environmentally conscious. Putting the responsibility for this climate mess on those at the bottom of the Capitalist pyramid is reprehensible, and the media must make it clear who is really to blame. We can start off with Trump and his sycophants of multinational elites.

Erm, there are things we all do - sewerage can't be blamed upon the rich because we all have to defecate, a lack of sewers would be the fault of collective responsibility tho. The same with climate change I think. We ARE all responsible, but of course some more responsible than others.

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9 hours ago, DAVID SNOW said:

"It can get very messy"?

According to some the earth is in such a mess anyway, so what is stopping them, cant they even try? Don't focus on the 1% global emission country(UK) .,.... try to impact, do something against the actual countries that are killing the planet!

Again, we're all, everyone everywhere to a greater and lesser extent,  to blame. Luckily we, here, are allowed to protest. By 'messy' I meant attacking embassies is going to be responded to with (probably armed) force - that's not something XRers do.

Putting pressure on govts can have international impact, I'm interested in other ideas.

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25 minutes ago, jonboy said:

The planet did not die when CO2 was considerably higher in the past and won't know. All natural cycles I'm afraid

The planet will indeed continue to exist, but numerous species are dying out and many have gone extinct already.

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12 minutes ago, karyo said:

The planet will indeed continue to exist, but numerous species are dying out and many have gone extinct already.

as will man eventually!! Not all extinctions are climate related or is that what you are suggesting?

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1 hour ago, jonboy said:

The planet did not die when CO2 was considerably higher in the past and won't know. All natural cycles I'm afraid

ALL of it? Not any human contribution? That isn't a sustainable argument is it?

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27 minutes ago, Devonian said:

ALL of it? Not any human contribution? That isn't a sustainable argument is it?

Yes all of it. Doesn't mean that man has no effect. The fact that man pollutes makes worse those cycles but underlying is the natural cycles. 

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16 minutes ago, jonboy said:

Yes all of it. Doesn't mean that man has no effect. The fact that man pollutes makes worse those cycles but underlying is the natural cycles. 

So not all of it then?

I've asked this question before, but how much more and what evidence does science need to provide you in order for you to re-consider your view?

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I think the sad reality (for many of such opinions) is that they will not alter their opinion until we see an indisputable result of recent warming that has major impacts?

With Atmospheric circulation appearing to alter in its patterns how long before we see failures in the Asian Monsoon and the impacts this would drive?

I do not get it myself as they appear to think that if A+B = either C,D,E (and all are bad for humanity) we must still wait to see which it is we face before trying to mitigate?

Madness (I.M.H.O.)

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