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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
4 hours ago, 4wd said:

Over the last 100 years similar warming occurred before the 1950s as since, that doesn't particularly support CO2 being a major driver.
It is known to have a logarithmic effect in other words you have to add more and more to get any further increase.
All the model based predictions are running way too hot despite being gradually revised downwards.

'Climate change' has become a major self-sustaining industry in itself, and the compliant media rush to exaggerate any possible warming related event with scant evidence to support any link.
In effect, you are all being brainwashed. It starts in schools and most of the media drip feed you reinforcement messages.

Ahh, but are we as intelligent as everyone else?

Edited by Devonian
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Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

Now here's a web site that keep the arguments going for a while https://climatechange.procon.org/

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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
2 hours ago, The PIT said:

Now here's a web site that keep the arguments going for a while https://climatechange.procon.org/

I suspect that is why it is there....

The site needs an entry on 'Is the Earth round' - they could find a lot of people who think the Earth is flat and such people have a right to be treated as equal to those who think the earth is round......?

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Posted
  • Location: Kensington
  • Location: Kensington

Day 4  protests still going in the city of London.  Traffic still backed up     three people in court as we speak  laughing and pleading not guilty.      never got that  willing to go to jail for their  actions  but then plead not guilty.  No backbone. 

Edited by weirpig
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Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

Funny how no-one's queuing-up to call those involved in Operation Shutdown 'spineless' or 'snowflakes' or whatever!:cc_confused:

https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/17/dozens-anti-knife-protesters-block-westminster-bridge-9239798/

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Posted
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......
  • Weather Preferences: Hot & Sunny, Cold & Snowy
  • Location: Mytholmroyd, West Yorks.......

For those who expect warming to be a consistent straight line ascending line on a graph.

Do you understand climate inertia?

Do you understand long and short natural forcings can either add into warming of pull warming down?

Do you understand 'global Dimming' and the causes for such?

 

We are emerging from another period of our fossil fuel pollution causing significant dimming (esp just down wind of the source)

We are now into the positive phase ( 15 to 30 years?) of the Interdecadal Pacific Oscillation

Both of these augment our warming.

You enjoyed your time when the pollution and naturals mitigated warming well now the opposite is occurring.

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Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
1 hour ago, weirpig said:

mass arrests currently in Oxford Square     also reports of two people glued to the underside of a truck for 2 days    Lol  

They must be 'exhausted'!

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Posted
  • Location: Kensington
  • Location: Kensington
12 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

They must be 'exhausted'!

I just dont get it.  ive tried i really have Pete  but what good will it do    reports the actress Emma Thompson is attending the Demo.     she apparently had to walk a short distance because her driver couldnt get past the Blockade    i joke not 

Edited by weirpig
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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
16 minutes ago, weirpig said:

I just dont get it.  ive tried i really have Pete  but what good will it do    reports the actress Emma Thompson is attending the Demo.     she apparently had to walk a short distance because her driver couldnt get past the Blockade    i joke not 

What good will doing nothing do? What good does criticising those who care, passionately and deeply, do?

Does deriding these protestors, making a joke of them, make smog clear? Does deriding, making a joke of them, reduce the amount of GHG going into the atmosphere?

They may achieve nothing and the world speed on towards ever more man made change. Is that really to be applauded, joked about?

Sorry, but I can't applaude that.

I don't think XR making demands is helpful, but I do know they get what is happening. We still have choices, we have time still but, to my mind, this planet is worth keeping healthy rather than made infirm.

We can still do great things.

 

 

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Posted
  • Location: Kensington
  • Location: Kensington
Just now, Devonian said:

What good will doing nothing do? What good does criticising those who care, passionately and deeply, do?

Does deriding these protestors, making a joke of them, make smog clear? Does deriding, making a joke of them, reduce the amount of GHG going into the atmosphere?

They may achieve nothing and the world speed on towards ever more man made change. Is that really to be applauded, joked about?

Sorry, but I can't applaude that.

I don't think XR making demands is helpful, but I do know they get what is happening. We still have choices, we have time still but, to my mind, this planet is worth keeping healthy rather than made infirm.

We can still do great things.

 

 

How deluded are some folk.  and again  what good will it do?.  Uk  5th in the ccpi index  with the 21st biggest population in the world.  we could be  carbon neutral on Friday and it wouldnt mean a bean.  All this protesting  demonstrating  blockading London is nothing more than Virtue signaling.   These people dont really care about the planet   all they are interested in  is they are seen to do something  which will give them exposure but no real result.    until the rest of the world gets to the level we are currently at  then the planet  is doomed.  if you believe the scientists  that we are close to the tipping point   then strutting around London attaching oneself to a building is not going to cut it.  

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Posted
  • Location: Hull
  • Weather Preferences: Cold Snowy Winters, Hot Thundery Summers
  • Location: Hull
8 minutes ago, weirpig said:

How deluded are some folk.  and again  what good will it do?.  Uk  5th in the ccpi index  with the 21st biggest population in the world.  we could be  carbon neutral on Friday and it wouldnt mean a bean.  All this protesting  demonstrating  blockading London is nothing more than Virtue signaling.   These people dont really care about the planet   all they are interested in  is they are seen to do something  which will give them exposure but no real result.    until the rest of the world gets to the level we are currently at  then the planet  is doomed.  if you believe the scientists  that we are close to the tipping point   then strutting around London attaching oneself to a building is not going to cut it.  

I get what you are saying here and like MIA said our emissions dwarf those of East Asia... however if nobody speaks nothing ever changes and protests do raise awareness. How do you know that they are only interested in virtue signalling? Have you got any evidence to suggest they all are? How come people protesting about brexit aren't accused of it, yet climate protesters are?


Some may be virtue signalling but to say all are is making a sweeping statement. If we all sat back and did nothing then we would happily go about emit more and more CO2. 

Saying that though I do strongly disagree with the protesters that do disrupt public transport, they aren't going to get much sympathy.

Personally I think geo-engineering is the way to go now sadly.

Edited by Quicksilver1989
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Posted
  • Location: Kensington
  • Location: Kensington
Just now, Quicksilver1989 said:

I get what you are saying here and like MIA said our emissions dwarf those of East Asia... however if nobody speaks nothing ever changes and protests do raise awareness. How do you know that they are only interested in virtue signalling. Some may be but to say all are is making a sweeping statement. If we all sat back and did nothing then we would happily go about emit more and more CO2. 

Saying that though I do strongly disagree with the protesters that do disrupt public transport, they aren't going to get much sympathy.

Personally I think geo-engineering is the way to go now sadly.

You are in one of the biggest cities in the world  with Embassies of all the major nations in a short distance   large international companies run from there. If you want to make a impact and a change  there is huge scope to do that   even in London.  Blockade the Chinese and USA embassies  go to the financial district,  but no they stop traffic, Stop the trains  glue themselves to buildings,  climb on Trucks.   At the very best its amateurish   at the worst incompetent . 

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Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

Unfortunately there demands are unrealistic. Zero chance of getting carbon omissions to zero by 2025. The technology isn't there and are you going to get people to walk from Birmingham to London for work, Turn the fridges lightning off, Lightning off, heating off. If we are really going clean up and also stop the destruction of other natural sources which will also have effect on the climate and other animal habitats we will need to reduce the world population by quite a bit and then keep it stable.

On a side note it looks like the policing is going to change soon judging by some news reports so it may turn nasty.

Edited by The PIT
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Posted
  • Location: Solihull, West Midlands. - 131 m asl
  • Weather Preferences: Sun, Snow and Storms
  • Location: Solihull, West Midlands. - 131 m asl
On 16/04/2019 at 20:42, Quicksilver1989 said:

You make some interesting points, I'll chip in with some replies...

Thanks Dev, QS and Ed for your replies above.

Sorry not to be taking part in this discussion, but after a cataract op recently I an having difficulties seeing and typing correctly!

So how are we going to make a serious attempt at becoming carbon neutral by 2025? You already agree it is not possible.

That being true, is it correct that these people eg are plotting to destroy the holidays of people via the blocking of Heathrow?.

Is it correct that they  attempt  to cause the maximum damage to those economies that are already leading the carbon dioxide removal race?

For me if they really want to change the environment they should be challenging the SE Asian economies. Western economies  have already proved that we can take the 'easiest apples from the tree',  and this the first part can be  implemented  reasonably  painlessly as shown by the UK and Europe and also in the USA.

These gains can be made in the South eastern Asian economies tomorrow. 

Surely if climate change is the real target for these people, they should be attacking things like the Paris agreement,  which provides more money for all of these developing economies. China is using this funding to build hundreds of coal powered power stations on a world wide basis. Forecasts now show that the Asian economies will produce 60 - 70% of the worlds CO2  in 10 years time.

and yes Ed we have produced most of the CO2 already there, but that does not help the future.

It will not be possible to carry out the next phase of this process without more technical innovation. New nuclear technologies, new battery storage techniques, etc  this is where the western economies can move forward and produce a plan to 'save the world' for you.

Unless you  are one of the people, who want to bring about a change in the social infrastructure in the country, attacking the UK now in order to bring about a carbon neutral economy by 2025 will bring about at most a 0.01C change in the temperature by 2200, and a change of 0.3C if the whole of the Paris treaty is implemented (Ie carbon neutral emissions by 2150).

You should now be spending all our investment money now on new technologies, not bringing about a reduction in terms of what we are currently producing, by utilising what we have today to invest in the future.

Making reductions in what we already have will -

1) Not achieve your desired goals in terms of reducing temperatures.

2) Bring about greater disruption to humanity than will caused by climate change. 

This is why the approach of maximum disruption being proposed for worldwide use  by XR, is all very pointless.

Some of the responses above refer to the idea that I have called all alarmists as 'snowflakes'. 

A lot of the people on the marches are just being led by XR extremists who want to bring about a change in society.

What is being demanded is impossible.  Everyone is agreed.

Anyone on here who  can propose something that will work?

MIA

 

Edited by Midlands Ice Age
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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
16 minutes ago, Midlands Ice Age said:

Thanks Dev, QS and Ed for your replies above.

Sorry not to be taking part in this discussion, but after a cataract op recently I an having difficulties seeing and typing correctly!

 

Good luck with the eyes - I know, from those who've had it done, that it's a pretty effective op!

Beyond that I'm afraid I'm in fundamental disagreement with you - sadly. Maybe someone will be along to call me names eh? Snowflake? Extremist? Bully? Activist? Alarmist? Brainwashed? [edit - deluded?] - all have been used here recently......

What will work? Producing less ghg, here and world wide! Simple, we just do it. It's that or the damage continues. Everyone should agree on that but instead people get called names....

Edited by Devonian
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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
3 hours ago, weirpig said:

How deluded are some folk.  and again  what good will it do?.  Uk  5th in the ccpi index  with the 21st biggest population in the world.  we could be  carbon neutral on Friday and it wouldnt mean a bean.  All this protesting  demonstrating  blockading London is nothing more than Virtue signaling.   These people dont really care about the planet   all they are interested in  is they are seen to do something  which will give them exposure but no real result.    until the rest of the world gets to the level we are currently at  then the planet  is doomed.  if you believe the scientists  that we are close to the tipping point   then strutting around London attaching oneself to a building is not going to cut it.  

The highlighted bit is simply wrong. I know, and well, someone on the march and I know others involved (I am not involved with XR). Again, I have to stress,  you are (wrt them at least) simply wrong. But, hey maybe those I know are [insert insult here*] eh?

*helpfully, I've listed some that have been used here in the last few days in my last post

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Posted
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, nr Bristol, SGlos
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, nr Bristol, SGlos

My (and darling wife) carbon footprint is dreadful. Since i retired early (Oct 2016) we have taken 40 flights (i.e. there and back).

I'm defo more aware of climate change discussion but i suppose i remain sceptical. The issue that grates me is every time we have an extreme weather event in the UK (e.g. late Feb/March 2018 OR Summer 2018) the Climate change mouthpieces jump all over it. But how do you know these events are just not part of a cycle? A storm or flood is soon followed by climate change arguments? Did these UK weather events not occur 100 years ago or plus?

Yes, i'm willing to listen but does every extreme weather event have to be down to climate change? How do you explain similar events from the 19th century? How do you explain the UK mediterranean climate that occured in medieval times? There was no heavy industry then.

Am i being gloriously simple and uneducated ( no Uni education)?

As for the plonkers disrupting London these last few days. Dont they have jobs? Do they realise they're affecting people's jobs, livelihoods? Do they care about their fellow human beings' environment?

If i parked a car in the middle of Leicester Square and sat in it, how long would it be before the Met Plod moved me along? Just wondering? 1 hour, 2 hours, 2 days, 2 weeks?

Maybe the Q could be a Q for a Sociology A level this June. Discuss.

Edited by Bristle boy
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Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
3 minutes ago, Devonian said:

The highlighted bit is simply wrong. I know, and well, someone on the march and I know others involved (I am not involved with XR). Again, I have to stress,  you are (wrt them at least) simply wrong. But, hey maybe those I know are [insert insult here*] eh?

*helpfully, I've listed some that have been used here in the last few days in my last post

They (a good many ardent CCDs are also rabid Brexiteers) invariably resort to their favoured MO...Simply calling someone a 'snowflake', 'remoaner', 'Trot' or whatever is far simpler than trying to understand?

Take that old 'the CO2 vs GW curve is logarithmic' chestnut? Of course it's logarithmic; that's why CO2 doublings are used...But, why bother with a simple/truthful explanation when the opportunity for some obfuscation presents itself?

And of course, as we've been told repeatedly, over the years, the globe was warmer back in the Mediaeval Warm Period...and who cares a jot that there were no thermometers anywhere back then!

I wear my 'snowflake' moniker with pride!:oldgood:

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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
1 hour ago, Bristle boy said:

My (and darling wife) carbon footprint is dreadful. Since i retired early (Oct 2016) we have taken 40 flights (i.e. there and back).

I'm defo more aware of climate change discussion but i suppose i remain sceptical. The issue that grates me is every time we have an extreme weather event in the UK (e.g. late Feb/March 2018 OR Summer 2018) the Climate change mouthpieces jump all over it. But how do you know these events are just not part of a cycle? A storm or flood is soon followed by climate change arguments? Did these UK weather events not occur 100 years ago or plus?

Yes, i'm willing to listen but does every extreme weather event have to be down to climate change? How do you explain similar events from the 19th century? How do you explain the UK mediterranean climate that occured in medieval times? There was no heavy industry then.

Am i being gloriously simple and uneducated ( no Uni education)?

As for the plonkers disrupting London these last few days. Dont they have jobs? Do they realise they're affecting people's jobs, livelihoods? Do they care about their fellow human beings' environment?

If i parked a car in the middle of Leicester Square and sat in it, how long would it be before the Met Plod moved me along? Just wondering? 1 hour, 2 hours, 2 days, 2 weeks?

Maybe the Q could be a Q for a Sociology A level this June. Discuss.

You're willing to listen, you've offered no insults. That is more than I (for one) would ask.

I would suggest reading the latest IPCC reports. Have I? No, not all of them by a long chalk, but I've read enough over the years to understand what is going on, and (crucially) I don't think I know better than people who know better than me and thus I don't feel able to wave it all away (with or without insults).

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Posted
  • Location: Derry, NW Ireland, 20 to 30m ASL
  • Location: Derry, NW Ireland, 20 to 30m ASL

Apologies for bringing this thread back a bit but God Almighty I can't believe in 2019 we are sitting here with some people on this forum virulently arguing that climate change isn't real, or it isn't anthropogenic. Its often ignorance, even wilful ignorance and perhaps I'd go as far as to say that its at times deliberate maliciousness that isperpetuating this nonsense. Please can we have a more robust attitude on this forum i.e remove unsubstantiated contrarian opinion instantly... 

 

Apologies again. I don't usually take a lighthearted forum seriously....

 

 

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Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

Just finished watching David Attenborough program.

Got questions about fields of solar panels do a create a local heat urban effect ??

 

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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
2 hours ago, The PIT said:

Just finished watching David Attenborough program.

Got questions about fields of solar panels do a create a local heat urban effect ??

 

Humm, I'm guessing not. 

UHI is about concrete, stone and tarmac absorbing solar radiation in the day and then reradiating it again at night? Warming up and then cooling down. There isn't much of a heat sink ( mass I guess?) in a solar panel, there is in a concrete, block, or stone building, or  road? Also solar panels tend to have grass not concrete under them. Finally, solar panels are taking something like 15% of the solar energy and moving it elsewhere as electricity.

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Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

Problem with solar panels they take up space that expanding populations will need to grow food. 

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