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mike Meehan

Drought - Summer - 2018?

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2 minutes ago, Nick L said:

I don't think you're understanding the issue at hand here. Nobody is saying we have a water shortage. There is only so much water they can pump through the treatment plants, and demand is outstripping it. This is nothing to do with the reservoir levels or anything like that, it's a simple case of supply not meeting demand. The debate of whether they should be having this problem in the first place is an entirely different one, but there is no water shortage, nobody is saying that.

Then Nick you need re name this thread: 

 

drought
draʊt/
noun
  1. a prolonged period of abnormally low rainfall, leading to a shortage of water.
     

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2 minutes ago, Ben Lewis said:

Then Nick you need re name this thread: 

 

drought
draʊt/
noun
  1. a prolonged period of abnormally low rainfall, leading to a shortage of water.
     

The period of abnormally low rainfall we are now experiencing is leading to increased water demand and the supply problems. Ultimately there is a shortage of water at peak times - think we are safe to use the drought word. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Ben Lewis said:

Then Nick you need re name this thread: 

 

drought
draʊt/
noun
  1. a prolonged period of abnormally low rainfall, leading to a shortage of water.
     

Nope. Because there is a meteorological drought.

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2 minutes ago, Radiating Dendrite said:

The period of abnormally low rainfall we are now experiencing is leading to increased water demand and the supply problems. Ultimately there is a shortage of water at peak times - think we are safe to use the drought word. 

 

The supply problems? What I pay £44 a month for you mean? 

The few weeks a year that a water company has to deal with you mean? 

To use the word drought is embarrassing 

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Just now, Ben Lewis said:

The supply problems? What I pay £44 a month for you mean? 

The few weeks a year that a water company has to deal with you mean? 

To use the word drought is embarrassing 

Have you had rainfall in the last 14 days?

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15 minutes ago, Ben Lewis said:

Then Nick you need re name this thread: 

 

drought
draʊt/
noun
  1. a prolonged period of abnormally low rainfall, leading to a shortage of water.
     

Drought is the correct meteorological term. That is no measurable rainfall for 14 days or more

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6 minutes ago, johnholmes said:

Drought is the correct meteorological term. That is no measurable rainfall for 14 days or more

The correct meteorological term maybe. 

Understood 

Edited by Ben Lewis

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This escalated quickly.. 🤓

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Just now, Ben Lewis said:

Leading to a shortage of water - we do not have a shortage of water! 

Usually but not always. This time we have a drought (meteorological) but not a water shortage, meaning empty resevoirs for most areas. A shortage of water at times in places due to a larger than usual demand is how I understand things.

The meteorological definition is from British Rainfall 1887.

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There's more than one type of drought

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/monitoring-references/dyk/drought-definition

Quote

Drought is a complex phenomenon which is difficult to monitor and define. Hurricanes, for example, have a definite beginning and end and can easily be seen as they develop and move. Drought, on the other hand, is the absence of water. It is a creeping phenomenon that slowly sneaks up and impacts many sectors of the economy, and operates on many different time scales. As a result, the climatological community has defined four types of drought: 1) meteorological drought, 2) hydrological drought, 3) agricultural drought, and 4) socioeconomic drought. Meteorological drought happens when dry weather patterns dominate an area. Hydrological drought occurs when low water supply becomes evident, especially in streams, reservoirs, and groundwater levels, usually after many months of meteorological drought. Agricultural drought happens when crops become affected. And socioeconomic drought relates the supply and demand of various commodities to drought. Meteorological drought can begin and end rapidly, while hydrological drought takes much longer to develop and then recover. Many different indices have been developed over the decades to measure drought in these various sectors. The U.S. Drought Monitor depicts drought integrated across all time scales and differentiates between agricultural and hydrological impacts.

So, we're in a meteorological, agricultural and possibly socioeconomic drought right now. 

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It seems we are in a meteorological drought according to the more knowledgeable than me. 

Appreciate the info. 

Have a good evening 

Edited by Ben Lewis

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Last time we had rain here was the 30th of may. Over a month already!

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10 minutes ago, Ben Lewis said:

It seems we are in a meteorological drought according to the more knowledgeable than me. 

Appreciate the info. 

Have a good evening 

Don't worry, there's still beer in the shops ,when there isn't it's a drought 😂

Edited by Mokidugway

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I am not sure we ever used the term drought at Thames with any real meaning. Its pretty much irrelevant, other than it will give companies more leeway to issue restrictions. There are many issues at play which cause problems with supply, yes peak times are more challenging because the longer it stays dry the more water people put on their gardens, this is why you get lower pressures in the evening. A pipe can only take so much water at (x) pressure, water may still not reach the end of the main even if the maximum amount is going in at source.

As said previously as a storage reservoir drops so does its head pressure and thus flow to a treatment works, once you have a valve 100% open you are totally at the mercy of the level feeding you.

Another factor which can cause serious problems is algae in the reservoirs, this causes primary filters to clog quicker requiring more frequent back washing. The number of filters online at anytime will have a direct effect on output. Water is drawn off open storage reservoirs at a point below the surface depending on quality, the lower a level goes, and stronger the sun the harder it is to find the quality you need. Shallow reservoirs are a waste of time at this time. 

All of this is set against daily demand which can be 20% above the average, the shorter nights (the recovery period) mean you have to pump as much as you can to restore levels for the early morning start. This puts the system at risk of burst mains, and that will usually occur just before dawn.

It is one huge balancing act, that just like the titanic will sink if there is a prolonged period of dry weather. Metropolitan areas will be looking at the clock awaiting the end of school term, as usually means a 10% drop in overall demand as people go on holiday. 

Groundwater areas often require support from river source supplies to suppliment them as even with a fully working borehole it cannot yield anymore than its maximum, this puts even more strain on the system.  

              

 

      

Edited by HighPressure

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One question to any knowledgeable people.

Has the infrastructure changed in the lat say 20 years,
There are more houses and more people taking loads more water, if we haven't built more reservoirs, storage areas bigger pipes and larger treatment plants.
Ie the water companies are not building for the future (yes they have repaired many leaking pipes), then this will get worse and worse with even small times of small rainfall totals.
They are complaining of people taking more water well surely that is obvious when its hot and they should be able to treat enough water when this happens, thats why you invest for the future.

This is what i think people like Ben and others are referring to, we pay loads for water yet the water companies are not reinvesting enough because of profits for the investers.
I do understand that if you to build a new reservoir the green people kick up a fuss because wide areas are flooded nature is lost homes and farms are gone etc,

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I refuse to acknowledge how anyone would rather see a drought and this god forsaken hot weather. I certainly don't want to be out in the street filling up my buckets and bottles thank you very much.

However out of the issues this country has with it's growing population I think water supplies are often over looked until we get this god forsaken weather. People need to be mindful, but how many people actual care?

As I type I am in an area at risk for my water to be cut off due to a burst main. Let that happen to you. no drinkable water, can't have a shower, hope I don't need the loo. 

On social media recently I saw a 'famous' couple fill up a swimming pool to be able to show off on Instagram. What is that showing to the younger followers? That water is there to be used and abused?

 Bubs is doing a walk to help people in Africa and their water issues tomorrow (if's it not too hot). We do plenty for other countries but do we do enough here, for us?

I would say that if bombs or the exploding sun doesn't kill us, greed will.

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1 hour ago, seaside 60 said:

One question to any knowledgeable people.

Has the infrastructure changed in the lat say 20 years,
There are more houses and more people taking loads more water, if we haven't built more reservoirs, storage areas bigger pipes and larger treatment plants.
Ie the water companies are not building for the future (yes they have repaired many leaking pipes), then this will get worse and worse with even small times of small rainfall totals.
They are complaining of people taking more water well surely that is obvious when its hot and they should be able to treat enough water when this happens, thats why you invest for the future.

This is what i think people like Ben and others are referring to, we pay loads for water yet the water companies are not reinvesting enough because of profits for the investers.
I do understand that if you to build a new reservoir the green people kick up a fuss because wide areas are flooded nature is lost homes and farms are gone etc,

Certainly down here in the SW, infrastructure has improved massively. From memory Roadford was new back 1995, removing the pressure. But the biggest changes have been to beach quality. Trust me when I say how bad they were in the 70/80s. You wouldn’t swim in Plymouth Sound back then believe me.

But we’ve paid a price for that with the highest water bills in the country. Unmetered now you’d be paying upwards of £800 per year. It’s why we have the highest amount of water meters in the UK and we get a government subsidy of £50 a year towards the bills.

And before any wise cracks question why we get £50 off, the other option was to start charging the visitors for use. Trust me, it was very much on the cards at one point.

 

Anyhow, thanks to Sunday we aren’t in any drought due to the rain here!

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10 hours ago, seaside 60 said:

One question to any knowledgeable people.

Has the infrastructure changed in the lat say 20 years,
There are more houses and more people taking loads more water, if we haven't built more reservoirs, storage areas bigger pipes and larger treatment plants.
Ie the water companies are not building for the future (yes they have repaired many leaking pipes), then this will get worse and worse with even small times of small rainfall totals.
They are complaining of people taking more water well surely that is obvious when its hot and they should be able to treat enough water when this happens, thats why you invest for the future.

This is what i think people like Ben and others are referring to, we pay loads for water yet the water companies are not reinvesting enough because of profits for the investers.
I do understand that if you to build a new reservoir the green people kick up a fuss because wide areas are flooded nature is lost homes and farms are gone etc,

I can't talk for other areas. and I have been out of the industry for 10 years. As for London, a lot of investment went into modernisation after privatisation, it simply had too, and it was quite lucrative for the companies. Things such as K factors, and leakage targets played a big role in the amount of investment that went in. To give you one example Hampton WTW was still steam powered until 1982 and it took 200 people to run the plant, within 10 yrs or privatisation, it could be run with just 6 people. A huge project on the London Water Ring Main (which I was part of) was undertaken, and treatment works were uprated, however there was very little increase in stored water, which was a political hot potato due to leakage. The argument being you don't need more storage is you are losing 20% of what you already produce.

There was no real increase in total capacity maybe even a decrease in capacity, although water transfer between internal areas was improved.    

 

 

              

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40 minutes ago, HighPressure said:

I can't talk for other areas. and I have been out of the industry for 10 years. As for London, a lot of investment went into modernisation after privatisation, it simply had too, and it was quite lucrative for the companies. Things such as K factors, and leakage targets played a big role in the amount of investment that went in. To give you one example Hampton WTW was still steam powered until 1982 and it took 200 people to run the plant, within 10 yrs or privatisation, it could be run with just 6 people. A huge project on the London Water Ring Main (which I was part of) was undertaken, and treatment works were uprated, however there was very little increase in stored water, which was a political hot potato due to leakage. The argument being you don't need more storage is you are losing 20% of what you already produce.

There was no real increase in total capacity maybe even a decrease in capacity, although water transfer between internal areas was improved.    

 

 

              

thank you for that info very interesting 

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Well I know what's it's like to be without water for a while! No running water in Chingford since about 6pm, unsure what the problem is. 

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2 minutes ago, danm said:

Well I know what's it's like to be without water for a while! No running water in Chingford since about 6pm, unsure what the problem is. 

Is chingford areal place ? , sounds naff ,lol

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18 hours ago, Mokidugway said:

Is chingford areal place ? , sounds naff ,lol

Not even sure how to answer that...

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2 hours ago, danm said:

Not even sure how to answer that...

 probably best not to

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