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Grenfell Tower fire

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1 minute ago, Ravelin said:

 

Do we even know yet whether H&S guidelines weren't followed? It's entirely possible that they were and that it's the guidelines are inadequate. 

Exactly. Hopefully, all will be revealed, we will just have to wait.

All I know is that I'm not a fire safety expert nor a builder, so on that front I'm keeping my clueless mouth shut. I'm hesitant to pipe up with an opinion on a subject I admittedly know little about.

I'll leave that to the people that do.

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2 minutes ago, Ravelin said:

 

Do we even know yet whether H&S guidelines weren't followed? It's entirely possible that they were and that the guidelines are inadequate. 

AFAIK, we don't, hence why I've just argued that we ought not be making definitive statements of fact regarding whether national or local government was at fault.  What I think any reasonable, compassionate person can agree is that something has gone dreadfully wrong and that someone, maybe many people was or were to blame.

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10 minutes ago, Paul said:

I also said that I'm sure her public persona doesn't match her private views/persona. But anyway, I'll rephrase if I was unclear, she's useless at showing a humane side to herself.

It's interesting this because Andy Burnham is very complimentary about how TM was during the Hillsborough inquest and enquiry, he is particularly warm about how she was with the families.   I think a lot of it is shyness and reserve and these days that isn't acceptable.  I'm not defending her, but I get the increasing sense that in terms of her demeanour and interaction she's about 3 decades too late as a leader. She looks increasingly irrelevant with every day that passes.   The fact that she lost significant ground to Corbyn/McDonnell says it all really.  

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2 minutes ago, CreweCold said:

The issue is, the two don't seem to be mutually exclusive unfortunately

In this case, they weren't.  I do think that, if ground rules are agreed and policed from the outset, they needn't be.

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We can't ignore the fact that an area that has been Conservative for years and years suddenly turned Labour , by a tiny majority admittedly, but it still went last week and this was one of the most surprising results of the election. It tells us the residents of this borough had had enough of who was in charge and wanted a change. Could this be because the residents were writing for help about their housing/ safety concerns and were being ignored and many services for the poor were being closed down and replaced with bars and gastro pubs, so I'm afraid these very actions and choices by the local council do make this political whether we think it's tasteless or not. The fact that a member of the council came on television saying that they acted accordingly, will spread hate for Tories in that area , further politicizing this entire tragic event.

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1 minute ago, abruzzi spur said:

It's interesting this because Andy Burnham is very complimentary about how TM was during the Hillsborough inquest and enquiry, he is particularly warm about how she was with the families.   I think a lot of it is shyness and reserve and these days that isn't acceptable.  I'm not defending her, but I get the increasing sense that in terms of her demeanour and interaction she's about 3 decades too late as a leader. She looks increasingly irrelevant with every day that passes.   The fact that she lost significant ground to Corbyn/McDonnell says it all really.  

I'd not heard that comment - his views seem very different to many people's perceptions.  Maybe your assessment is correct; I do wonder, though, if she struggles infront of the cameras or with larger groups of people who may not be entirely friendly, whether running as leader of the governing party was such as wise move?  As you say, in the old days a PM could get away with being awkward and weak on camera, but, since the days of Wilson (the first media-age PM, IMO), a leader must come across well on screen.  It's possibly even more important in the internet and social media age when initial impressions are formed so rapidly.

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1 minute ago, lassie23 said:

We can't ignore the fact that an area that has been Conservative for years and years suddenly turned Labour , by a tiny majority admittedly, but it still went last week and this was one of the most surprising results of the election. It tells us the residents of this borough had had enough of who was in charge and wanted a change. Could this be because the residents were writing for help about their housing/ safety concerns and were being ignored and many services for the poor were being closed down and replaced with bars and gastro pubs, so I'm afraid these very actions and choices by the local council do make this political whether we think it's tasteless or not. The fact that a member of the council came on television saying that they acted accordingly, will spread hate for Tories in that area , further politicizing this entire tragic event.

In the immediate aftermath of the vote, the political commentators said it was the result of a naturally Remain-leaning constituency preferring a party that had a more moderate approach to Brexit than Mrs. May's newly-found desire for a fundamentalist approach to negociations (no dealis better than a bad deal).

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Just now, chrisbell-nottheweatherman said:

In the immediate aftermath of the vote, the political commentators said it was the result of a naturally Remain-leaning constituency preferring a party that had a more moderate approach to Brexit than Mrs. May's newly-found desire for a fundamentalist approach to negociations (no dealis better than a bad deal).

Not what i heard from the locals that i know near by. It was more that they were feeling victims of social engineering, their views not mine and London was one of the least affected by Brexit when it came to voting, it was more NHS, poverty, homelessness etc, this is why Theresa May's Tories failed in London, because you can't fight an election down here on one issue, especially not in a big city like London.

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1 minute ago, lassie23 said:

Not what i heard from the locals that i know near by. It was more that they were feeling victims of social engineering, their views not mine and London was one of the least affected by Brexit when it came to voting, it was more NHS, poverty, homelessness etc, this is why Theresa May's Tories failed in London, because you can't fight an election down here on one issue, especially not in a big city like London.

I think the pundits assumed that it was the wealthy of the Borough that voted on Brexit rather than those from the deprived areas.  I'd have been surprised had they (those living in the deprived areas) not voted on the basis you describe.

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The need to house people in London has become a sad joke.

Stuff them in , wherever you can, and this sort of thing will happen.

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12 minutes ago, chrisbell-nottheweatherman said:

I'd not heard that comment - his views seem very different to many people's perceptions.  Maybe your assessment is correct; I do wonder, though, if she struggles infront of the cameras or with larger groups of people who may not be entirely friendly, whether running as leader of the governing party was such as wise move?  As you say, in the old days a PM could get away with being awkward and weak on camera, but, since the days of Wilson (the first media-age PM, IMO), a leader must come across well on screen.  It's possibly even more important in the internet and social media age when initial impressions are formed so rapidly.

https://corporate.sky.com/media-centre/media-packs/2016/murnaghan-interview-andy-burnham-mp,-labour-manchester-mayoral-candidate,-301016

Matthew Parris in the Times yesterday is worth a read Chris, very interesting about May and (from her point of view) not in a good way.

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13 hours ago, abruzzi spur said:

https://corporate.sky.com/media-centre/media-packs/2016/murnaghan-interview-andy-burnham-mp,-labour-manchester-mayoral-candidate,-301016

Matthew Parris in the Times yesterday is worth a read Chris, very interesting about May and (from her point of view) not in a good way.

Thanks - to be fair, in this transcript he praises her handling of the Inquiry rather than how she related to the families, but I agree that it suggests something different to recent perception.

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I'll try and find the reference if you're interested Chris,  it surprised me a bit.  I can't recall if I read it in the Times on Saturday or the Sunday Times yesterday, or elsewhere.  Anyway, she was well regarded by the families as this piece demonstrates:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-families-praise-theresa-mays-11598771

 

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18 hours ago, DAVID SNOW said:

The need to house people in London has become a sad joke.

Stuff them in , wherever you can, and this sort of thing will happen.

It was full in about 1989 I think.
Since then the floodgates have opened.

London gets so much investment it only accentuates this problem.
Frequent affordable public transport, fast broadband, 4G, well paid jobs in abundance.
Here we have some mud, none of the above.
Not been stabbed or burned yet though. :rolleyes:

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Grenfell Tower This is what Austerity Looks Like.

The Abandonment of a Community.

Instead, we got endless hours, days of BBC hand-wringing, focusing almost exclusively on the (heroic) efforts of a devastated community, ignored and forgotten by their council and the government, with those damn cameras peering into peoples' grief and ultimately, anger, made all the worse by the state's total indifference to this calamity.

https://investigatingimperialism.wordpress.com/2017/06/17/grenfell-tower-this-is-what-austerity-looks-like-by-william-bowles/#more-85171

Fears of a Grenfell Tower cover-up as Labour MP who lost artist friend urges police to carry out raids to stop firms and councils from destroying evidence.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4616482/Fears-Grenfell-Tower-cover-calls-raids.html#ixzz4kRPpgzG3

 

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32 minutes ago, Snowyowl9 said:

Grenfell Tower This is what Austerity Looks Like.

The Abandonment of a Community.

Instead, we got endless hours, days of BBC hand-wringing, focusing almost exclusively on the (heroic) efforts of a devastated community, ignored and forgotten by their council and the government, with those damn cameras peering into peoples' grief and ultimately, anger, made all the worse by the state's total indifference to this calamity.

https://investigatingimperialism.wordpress.com/2017/06/17/grenfell-tower-this-is-what-austerity-looks-like-by-william-bowles/#more-85171

Fears of a Grenfell Tower cover-up as Labour MP who lost artist friend urges police to carry out raids to stop firms and councils from destroying evidence.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4616482/Fears-Grenfell-Tower-cover-calls-raids.html#ixzz4kRPpgzG3

 

Probably goes some way to explaining the inaction of the local council since the incident; too busy feeding the paper shredders and tying up loose ends.

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We don't normally bother with the One Show, but we saw the first quarter of an hour or so tonight.  They were speaking to an investigative journalist whose reporting on this is going to be on Panorama tonight.  It seems that several experts warned the government for years about the hazards of cladding and the inadequacy of standards.  One, in a short clip from tonight's programme, admitted to crying when he saw the news, as he had warned in 2014 that he thought this would happen.  I have a feeling that there are quite a few specialists in this field who don't feel like holding back on their views over this.

Edited by chrisbell-nottheweatherman
Correcting typo.
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3 hours ago, abruzzi spur said:

I'll try and find the reference if you're interested Chris,  it surprised me a bit.  I can't recall if I read it in the Times on Saturday or the Sunday Times yesterday, or elsewhere.  Anyway, she was well regarded by the families as this piece demonstrates:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-families-praise-theresa-mays-11598771

 

Thanks.  It sounds as though her personality doesn't translate well on camera.

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4 hours ago, Snowyowl9 said:

Grenfell Tower This is what Austerity Looks Like.

The Abandonment of a Community.

Instead, we got endless hours, days of BBC hand-wringing, focusing almost exclusively on the (heroic) efforts of a devastated community, ignored and forgotten by their council and the government, with those damn cameras peering into peoples' grief and ultimately, anger, made all the worse by the state's total indifference to this calamity.

https://investigatingimperialism.wordpress.com/2017/06/17/grenfell-tower-this-is-what-austerity-looks-like-by-william-bowles/#more-85171

Fears of a Grenfell Tower cover-up as Labour MP who lost artist friend urges police to carry out raids to stop firms and councils from destroying evidence.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4616482/Fears-Grenfell-Tower-cover-calls-raids.html#ixzz4kRPpgzG3

 

Letters to ministers about tower block fire hazards ignored and warnings that budget cuts were dangerous to the public ignored too.......oh dear.

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So the first response units go into the flat and successfully get the small fridge fire under control: prepare to leave and see fire racing up the outside of the building: how did that happen? 

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1 hour ago, Snowyowl9 said:

Local estimates are far higher.

https://postimg.org/image/qhpctgeen/

Keep watching this news for the facts.

 

I think the death toll will be far higher than the 79 officially missing or dead, because there are very few survivors stories above about the 15th floor. i would not be surprised if it was actually 150+  - it is truly shocking, and the authorities will have some idea of the people missing..    

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15 minutes ago, Gael_Force said:

So the first response units go into the flat and successfully get the small fridge fire under control: prepare to leave and see fire racing up the outside of the building: how did that happen? 

That's what I can't get my head around. A small fridge fire that was successfully tackled but the whole building then goes up??

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11 hours ago, CreweCold said:

That's what I can't get my head around. A small fridge fire that was successfully tackled but the whole building then goes up??

 

It shows that something very unusual and utterly unforgiveable happened.

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