Storm naming - should the Met Office have named yesterday's low?

[Paul]

It's been a topic of conversation here over the last couple of days, and we were just wondering what everyone's views were on the naming of the storms over the weekend and yesterday. The storm on Sunday was named Storm Angus by the Met Office, but whilst the low yesterday was a totally different system, with equally significant affects, it wasn't named, leading to the media continuing to refer to Angus. 

Do you think the Met Office should have named it Barbara? 

Please feel free to vote in the poll, and add any views you have on this, and the naming of storms in general.

[alexisj9]

I'm in two minds here, on the one hand winds were weaker although more wide spread, so probably doesn't come into naming territory as a wind storm. However it did cause many problems with rain amounts. I guess it comes into, do they name storms for excessive rain rather than strong winds. If they are naming storms likely to cause major flooding this should have been named, if they are not, it shouldn't have been. 

Does anyone know if they are naming storms for flooding purposes?

[Paul]

1 minute ago, alexisj9 said:

I'm in two minds here, on the one hand winds were weaker although more wide spread, so probably doesn't come into naming territory as a wind storm. However it did cause many problems with rain amounts. I guess it comes into, do they name storms for excessive rain rather than strong winds. If they are naming storms likely to cause major flooding this should have been named, if they are not, it shouldn't have been. 

Does anyone know if they are naming storms for flooding purposes?

Yep, bizarrely it was something they specifically added this year, as far as I'm aware

Quote

WHEN IS A STORM NAMED?

The criteria we use for naming storms is based on our National Severe Weather Warnings service. This is based on a combination of both the impact the weather may have, and the likelihood of those impacts occurring.

A storm will be named when it has the potential to cause an amber 'be prepared' or red 'take action' warning.

Other weather types will also be considered, specifically rain if its impact could lead to flooding as advised by the Environment Agency, SEPA and Natural Resources Wales flood warnings. Therefore 'storms systems' could be named on the basis of impacts from wind but also include the impacts of rain and snow.

 

[alexisj9]

3 minutes ago, Paul said:

Yep, bizarrely it was something they specifically added this year, as far as I'm aware

 

And I recall they did amber warn some of the rain in the SW, but that was the day before the storm hit, might that be why they didn't name it? 

[Jo Farrow]

There was still an amber warning out on Monday in the SW

 

[alexisj9]

7 minutes ago, Jo Farrow said:

There was still an amber warning out on Monday in the SW

 

Thanks, have voted yes.

[Methuselah]

I really don't mind, as naming storms doesn't, in any way I can tell, alter the outcome...Clearly, I am missing something!

[toggerob]

Why bother having the protocol for 'impact and damage potential' if the METO doesn't stick to their own rules and only issue warnings for high-populated areas, it should be impartial no matter the location be it central London or central Highlands.

[Essan]

If there's an amber warning out for fog or ice, does that have to be given a name too? 

[alexisj9]

4 minutes ago, Essan said:

If there's an amber warning out for fog or ice, does that have to be given a name too? 

lol.

[Jo Farrow]

5 minutes ago, Essan said:

If there's an amber warning out for fog or ice, does that have to be given a name too? 

Thankyou from the back!  No, only covers wind, snow and rain.

[Essan]

4 minutes ago, Jo Farrow said:

Thankyou from the back!  No, only covers wind, snow and rain.

Well I think that's discrimination!   You weatherist you  

[Cookie]

No we had storms that strength so far this winter. You would be naming everything 

[Jo Farrow]

From MO press office ---Thank you for your email about the naming of storms. I assume that you are familiar with the criteria we use to name storms, namely that they are large scale wind storms which have the potential to cause impacts for which an amber weather warning is likely to be issued. Angus was a deep depression which resulted in an amber warning for wind being issued across the southeast of England.

For this season, the second year of our pilot project, we have made a slight tweak to the criteria so that we can consider naming those systems which have the potential to cause amber impacts from rain and/or snow too - this in partnership with other agencies such as the Environment Agency, Natural Resources Wales and SEPA. In theory this means we could have named yesterday's system as there was an amber warning for rain as well as two yellow wind warnings.

 However, the Chief Meteorologist took the view yesterday that as the warnings were spatially and temporally quite separate and that the system was not as well defined that we wouldn't name.

 When we have two systems as close together as this it can lead to confusion about what impacts are from what system, so we have tried to be clear that the impacts on Saturday night/Sunday were from Angus and that yesterday's low pressure was separate. I'm sure we'll be reviewing this example at the end of the season as we continue to tweak the storm naming process.

 I hope that helps and clarifies things a little, you can see more information on our UK Storm Centre page http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/barometer/uk-storm-centre/uk-storm-centre and please do contact us if you need anything else,

 

Nice to get an explanation from the horse's mouth. As always with weather it's easy to be knowledgeable after the event, I am still with it being #Barbara but it's not an exact thing. 

[Paul]

My issue is that they need to be consistent. If they named angus based on the impacts from it, then I think they should have named the second one too, as if anything it's impacts were more severe and also more widespread. 

[Frosty hollows]

1 hour ago, SNOW_JOKE said:

Why bother having the protocol for 'impact and damage potential' if the METO doesn't stick to their own rules and only issue warnings for high-populated areas, it should be impartial no matter the location be it central London or central Highlands.

I think that's only because in high density areas you will have a greater number of people going about their business especially at commuter times, but also there is a chance of being injured from flying debris eg hoardings, canopies, even bus shelter roofs being ripped off in a severe gale

[Geordiesnow]

I'm also in 2 minds whether this should of been named, whilst the winds were strong widely, in general the severe gales were fairly isolated. Storm Angus had the more potential to cause disruption because it was a deeper low and more of a pressure gradient. That said when you looked at the models on this low pressure system, you could see there was quite a pressure gradient on the NW flank of the low and you saw that with a batch of gale force to locally severe gale force winds battering down the NW England, North Wales, SW Scotland and eastern parts of Northern Ireland and whilst the those strongest gusts may not of lasted all that long(about 4 or so hours I would say) there was still the potential for some localised damage/disruption.

I would probably just about edge on saying the Met Office has got it right on not naming it, I think because of the unusual track of the low(came from the South heading Northwards instead of West to East) it made it look worse than perhaps it was. 

[lassie23]

In two minds about naming storms, it's okay for us weather enthusiasts, but everyone else like my family/ household who have no special interest in the weather, think it's pointless and  they cannot remember a single name of a storm from last year or the year before that. Sure it's useful for history and to give a storm attention, but it can create problems too.  Here in London Angus wasn't really noticeable but the system that followed it created stronger winds and flooding yet wasn't given much attention, or a name by the forecasters, this caught the public out around here.

[asjmcguire]

As the weather warning from METO noted - due to the "uncommon" wind direction, it was thought likely to cause more disruption.

It did (here anyway) - we have had rain coming in the property through window seals and the roof - we never normally suffer from these problems when the rain is coming from the South (ish) - or - when the rain is more vertical.

[Jo Farrow]

1 hour ago, Geordiesnow said:

I'm also in 2 minds whether this should of been named, whilst the winds were strong widely, in general the severe gales were fairly isolated. Storm Angus had the more potential to cause disruption because it was a deeper low and more of a pressure gradient. That said when you looked at the models on this low pressure system, you could see there was quite a pressure gradient on the NW flank of the low and you saw that with a batch of gale force to locally severe gale force winds battering down the NW England, North Wales, SW Scotland and eastern parts of Northern Ireland and whilst the those strongest gusts may not of lasted all that long(about 4 or so hours I would say) there was still the potential for some localised damage/disruption.

I would probably just about edge on saying the Met Office has got it right on not naming it, I think because of the unusual track of the low(came from the South heading Northwards instead of West to East) it made it look worse than perhaps it was. 

 

It is now about Rain (and snow) not just winds this year

[Jo Farrow]

52 minutes ago, lassie23 said:

In two minds about naming storms, it's okay for us weather enthusiasts, but everyone else like my family/ household who have no special interest in the weather, think it's pointless and  they cannot remember a single name of a storm from last year or the year before that. Sure it's useful for history and to give a storm attention, but it can create problems too.  Here in London Angus wasn't really noticeable but the system that followed it created stronger winds and flooding yet wasn't given much attention, or a name by the forecasters, this caught the public out around here.

 

Desmond main impacts turned out to be rain, the government has called on people who want to make claims to make  Storm Desmond applications. So in that instance it did highlight an event very well. they are geographically different and last year hardly any affected the SE

[lassie23]

11 minutes ago, Jo Farrow said:

Desmond main impacts turned out to be rain, the government has called on people who want to make claims to make  Storm Desmond applications. So in that instance it did highlight an event very well. they are geographically different and last year hardly any affected the SE

I'm not sure the masses remember names of storms, I haven't spoken to anybody outside Net Weather who can name me one. But they are good for historical references, like naming hurricanes.

[asjmcguire]

It certainly would help to prevent things like this (which I complained was incorrect when they posted it)

A number of media broadcasters (all of whom have resident meteorological people) don't seem to realise that Angus - came and went relatively quietly, in terms of the damage and disruption it was expected to cause vs the reality of it.

It's potentially also arguable - that the initial decision that winds were the only thing that mattered is a strange decision anyway, surely damage caused by wind is (in general) less of a risk versus damage and potential loss of life caused by flooding - which includes subsidence and landslides.

[Paul]

Jo's blogged about this:

Why no #StormBarbara, was it all #Angus?

[sunnijim]

A yes for sure.

I think the impacts from the secondary system were greater than that of Angus anyway.

I can see why Angus was given a name, there was real 'potential' there for wind damage had the system tracked further North.

What we ended up with from Angus were 60mph gusts on channel coasts and a soaking for some.

There seems to be a need for an honest look at the impacts of Angus, high gusts have been listed ' 80mph on the South East coast' ( one gust in a bay off the Kent coast does not represent the real picture) The warning of potential 70mph-80mph gusts just did not happen on mainland England.

I was left wondering if the higher impacts of wind and rainfall from the secondary system were being attributed to Angus due to the lack of real impact from Angus?

Then in the publics eye ( not the weather obsessed here) every situation over the last few days could be attributed to the named storm.

We don't then get 'that Angus, did nothing really did it' from Joe public.

 

Edited November 22, 2016 by sunnijim