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is it autumn or is it winter?


seakayaker78

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At the end of the day its surely the vernal equinoxes that are key to the whole thing the lengthening and shortening of the days are due to the earth tilting towards and away from the sun which has effect on the surface of the earth the primary cause of meteological events

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2 minutes ago, seakayaker78 said:

At the end of the day its surely the vernal equinoxes that are key to the whole thing the lengthening and shortening of the days are due to the earth tilting towards and away from the sun which has effect on the surface of the earth the primary cause of meteological events

Eh? Why the Vernal Equinox? Why not the Winter Solstice? Now you've lost me as well.

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9 minutes ago, seakayaker78 said:

At the end of the day its surely the vernal equinoxes that are key to the whole thing the lengthening and shortening of the days are due to the earth tilting towards and away from the sun which has effect on the surface of the earth the primary cause of meteological events

But the peak/minimum solar intensity doesn't coincide with the warmest and coldest times of the year, there is a lag effect. December and June aren't the coldest/warmest months on average.

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5 minutes ago, seakayaker78 said:

The solstice is equal day equal night yes?

Summer longest  Winter shortest 

Said to be mid summer mid winter

But.. its the vernal equinoxes that are the driving force 

 

No, that's the equinox.

With respect, I don't think you're taking on board anything we're saying or trying to explain to you.

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51 minutes ago, Nick L said:

But it doesn't, that's the whole point. The shortest day is the 20-22nd day of winter in the meteorological sense, and the 1st day of winter in the astronomical sense. In no sense is it the middle of winter.

https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/aboutseasons.html

Unless your post is describing a new hypothetical season!

i know, i was just trying to make it clear what the OP was trying to get at. 

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The seasons are rightly set to the average weather for the time of year. It would make absolutely no sense to set them so that the hottest months are at the end of Summer/start of Autumn or for the coldest to be end of Winter/start of Spring.

That said, our seasons are shifting so they may need to be revised to fall later. Not earlier.

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38 minutes ago, seakayaker78 said:

:) im fully aware of the differences between the solstices equinox 

But maybe it was also taken onboard and look at it holistically that the two equinoxes is the key to the meteological events that you say the seasons are being based on 

I'm not sure you do understand. I can call a cat a dog but it doesn't mean I'm right. Today is not winter by any current and scientific definition.

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As others have stated, sticking to the meteorological definition, winter starts 1 December, so in this context we are still in autumn. However, people's perceptions of where a particular day fits in terms of the season definitions, very much depends on the feel of that particular day. A bright mild day in February often has everyone saying it feels 'springlike'. conversely a wet cool day in mid August often results in people saying doesn't it feel autumnal. Likewise cold days in November often result in people saying it feels like winter. The past couple of weeks have been 'wintry' in nature around here, and people are saying winter is here.. yet it is very much autumn still. 

It is a bit confusing though, I have a book which under the month of November says 'the season 'early winter' extends from 20 November to 19 January. It doesn't give any explanation as to why.. 

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Whatever the weather, the period September 1st to November 30th will be regarded by meteorologists as autumn. In recent years we have had some very mild Novembers (I believe 2013 was the last one that came in a bit below average). This November has been far more normal in terms of temperature (at least to the current date). We are reaching the very final stages of autumn now, where the transition from autumn into winter is almost complete - most trees are bare now. However, we can't officially say it's winter until Thursday December 1st. :D

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Anyone remember the old tv series 'Soap'? Confused....you will be

December 21st - first day, last or mid winter? Astronomically speaking it's the first day of winter. Old religious custom wise...it's also the first day of winter. Astronomical calendars run from Solstice to Equinox. December 21st, winter Solstice is the first day of winter, winter continues until the spring Equinox sometime in March.

Length of day, or the marking of the shortest day was/is a celebration of the return of the germinating Sun, a thanks giving that the crops would grow, that the Sun hadn't disappeared forever. It was/is still a recognition of times of famine during the winter - the winter still to come. Many feasts, from many cultures around the globe are held around that period as it was traditionally a time to slaughter animals so they did not have to be fed during the winter to come. Not as a celebration that winter was over. Customs such as bringing evergreen boughs into the home at Solstice also recognises that it is the first day of winter - they are brought in as a symbol of ever lasting life, believed to have magical properties because they remain green whilst all around is dead. The custom and the relatively modern carol 'Deck the halls with boughs of holly' stems from this old custom.

Old tradition wise, ancient custom wise, Astrological or religion wise, December 21st is the first day of winter. Go to Stonehenge or any other site in the country which marks this date and the celebrating Druids will tell you so. Or if anyone really wants to know more, try a wander around Glastonbury town at any point in the year. There's loads of people, shops and information which goes into the customs of Pagans/Druids, all of which are celebrated/marked in the town during the year.

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If we only had 2 seasons - Summer and Winter - and they were determined astronomically, then winter would have started on the 22nd September and finish at the spring equinox :D  

Although around here all we ever seem to get is Summer and Autumn .......  :p

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7 hours ago, jethro said:

Anyone remember the old tv series 'Soap'? Confused....you will be

December 21st - first day, last or mid winter? Astronomically speaking it's the first day of winter. Old religious custom wise...it's also the first day of winter. Astronomical calendars run from Solstice to Equinox. December 21st, winter Solstice is the first day of winter, winter continues until the spring Equinox sometime in March.

Length of day, or the marking of the shortest day was/is a celebration of the return of the germinating Sun, a thanks giving that the crops would grow, that the Sun hadn't disappeared forever. It was/is still a recognition of times of famine during the winter - the winter still to come. Many feasts, from many cultures around the globe are held around that period as it was traditionally a time to slaughter animals so they did not have to be fed during the winter to come. Not as a celebration that winter was over. Customs such as bringing evergreen boughs into the home at Solstice also recognises that it is the first day of winter - they are brought in as a symbol of ever lasting life, believed to have magical properties because they remain green whilst all around is dead. The custom and the relatively modern carol 'Deck the halls with boughs of holly' stems from this old custom.

Old tradition wise, ancient custom wise, Astrological or religion wise, December 21st is the first day of winter. Go to Stonehenge or any other site in the country which marks this date and the celebrating Druids will tell you so. Or if anyone really wants to know more, try a wander around Glastonbury town at any point in the year. There's loads of people, shops and information which goes into the customs of Pagans/Druids, all of which are celebrated/marked in the town during the year.

Very interesting and illuminating post - thanks.

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On 20/11/2016 at 16:29, seakayaker78 said:

At the end of the day its surely the vernal equinoxes that are key to the whole thing the lengthening and shortening of the days are due to the earth tilting towards and away from the sun which has effect on the surface of the earth the primary cause of meteological events

Also at the end of the day December isn't on average the coldest month of the winter nor is June the warmest month of the summer. Therefore neither December or June are mid winter or mid summer!

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