is it autumn or is it winter?

[seakayaker78]

Now they keep stating first autumn storm autumn this and that.

My reckoning is they are completely mistaken as its actually winter Tommorow is exactly a month to the winter solstice the point that marks midwinter. Which make it winter now not autumn surely.

Prehaps it should be explained to someone about this fact and maybe the facts can be correctly given..

 

 

[MP-R]

In meteorological terms it's autumn until the end of the month. 

[4wd]

By other measures it's still Autumn until Winter starts on 21st December.
It's Autumn

[Seasonality]

6 minutes ago, seakayaker78 said:

Now they keep stating first autumn storm autumn this and that.

My reckoning is they are completely mistaken as its actually winter Tommorow is exactly a month to the winter solstice the point that marks midwinter. Which make it winter now not autumn surely.

Prehaps it should be explained to someone about this fact and maybe the facts can be correctly given..

 

 

Hi @seakayaker78, not sure where you got your definition of the seasons from. There are two major definitions I'm aware of, meteorological which encompasses the calendar months Dec-Feb and therefore starts on 1 December and astronomical which starts on the solstice, Dec 21 this year. There are some old European cultural traditions too, like starting on Martinmas, 11 Nov but I could find nothing about 21 Nov. I'm curious where you got this idea from.

[seakayaker78]

But as the solstice actually marks Mid winter

As the summer solstice marks mid summer 

Vernal equinox deliniates the peak points of temperatures maximum and minimum exposure to the sun

[seakayaker78]

As my topic stated a month exactly from tommorow that being dec 21 as you stated

[MP-R]

I've heard somewhere about, in terms of light levels, winter starting around Nov 21st and summer May 21st but I don't know if that's actually something recognised. 

[seakayaker78]

But as the weather is driven by the effects of the sun on the surface of the planet surely the key to the seasons should be astrological not meteorlogical  

[seakayaker78]

Meteorlogical - the research and recording of data of global weather events

Astronomical - the research and recording of data of events in space that effect the earth 

Which include the interaction of the sun on the earth and as metoerlogical events are a direct result of this.

  this surely should then be the bench mark that the deliniating points of seasons following  astronomical events.

As previously mentioned european cultures have historically been recognised these events however far fetched and misunderstood documented to have been celebrated

Edited November 20, 2016 by seakayaker78
didnt make sense

[seakayaker78]

Now they keep stating first autumn storm autumn this and that.

My reckoning is they are completely mistaken as its actually winter Tommorow is exactly a month to the winter solstice the point that marks midwinter. Which make it winter now not autumn surely.

Prehaps it should be explained to someone about this fact and maybe the facts can be correctly given..

 

 

[March]

What you're describing isn't even Astronomical winter though 

You're free to call July winter if you want but those of us who are interested in the climate (and thus also data) will stick to the neater meteorological. Even your logic is wrong as if midwinter is 21st December and thus winter starts tomorrow, that would mean winter is 2 months long as logically it would end January 21st.  

[jonboy]

4 minutes ago, seakayaker78 said:

Now they keep stating first autumn storm autumn this and that.

My reckoning is they are completely mistaken as its actually winter Tommorow is exactly a month to the winter solstice the point that marks midwinter. Which make it winter now not autumn surely.

Prehaps it should be explained to someone about this fact and maybe the facts can be correctly given..

 

 

Most these days say winter starts on the 1st December however I prefer the equinox's to define my seasons so that would be December 21st

[seakayaker78]

? When did i call july  start of winter?

Midsummer in july 

Seasons just names given to the transitions between the vernal equinoxes

[seakayaker78]

There are two vernal equinox through the year longer days more exposure to the sun so more heat evaporation of water convection currents thus creating meteological event

[Methuselah]

Is it Autumn or is it Winter? Well, I tend to ignore both the meteorological and astronomical definitions, as a rule. Not because I think that they're nonsense - of course they are not. But because, as far as fauna and flora are concerned - light-levels conveniently excluded - it's the day-to-day weather that matters most?

Squirrels, for example, can obviously not engage in philosophical debate (even with knocker!) they can only react...Which is why, had the whole of November consisted of snowfall after snowfall, I'd be happy to say that 'Winter has come early, this year'...I'm sure that Sydney would, too?

So, putting all those half-baked beliefs of mine into a nutshell (for the squirrels!) I'm guessing that it's still Autumn?

[Nick L]

I'm really confused by this thread, it's Autumn 

[Captain Shortwave]

Whatever system you like to use, it is currently Autumn. Meteorological winter starts on the 1st of December, astronomical winter begins on the 21st of December.

[Nick L]

1 hour ago, seakayaker78 said:

But as the solstice actually marks Mid winter

As the summer solstice marks mid summer 

Vernal equinox deliniates the peak points of temperatures maximum and minimum exposure to the sun

The solstice doesn't mark midwinter in any sense. It marks the beginning of astronomical winter.

And anyway, this is a meteorology forum, winter starts on Dec 1st.

[Seasonality]

1 hour ago, seakayaker78 said:

But as the solstice actually marks Mid winter

As the summer solstice marks mid summer 

Vernal equinox deliniates the peak points of temperatures maximum and minimum exposure to the sun

You aren't making any sense now. You can't just redefine the seasons to suit your own thoughts.

[Lake District Blizzards]

i get what seakayaker is trying to say, and think it best fits a phenological model whereas the seasons can greatly shift depending on the year to year weather patterns etc.

Autumn can start in August when the first berries ripen, fungi start to appear even some trees start to turn.

The period now is arguably transitional into winter - many trees are now bare (marking the end of autumn) and here at least we have had snow/frost for the last week or two. 

likewise spring can start in mid February or as late as mid April (2013 for example)

[Lake District Blizzards]

I think seaskayaker is also basing it on day length over anything else, so...

The shortest day marks the middle of winter. If winter was still 3 months long, then December 21st would be the 46th day of winter.

Therefore winter would begin on the 5th November and end on the 5th February.

 

is this what you mean seakayaker?

[Nick L]

10 minutes ago, Lake District Blizzards said:

I think seaskayaker is also basing it on day length over anything else, so...

The shortest day marks the middle of winter. If winter was still 3 months long, then December 21st would be the 46th day of winter.

Therefore winter would begin on the 5th November and end on the 5th February.

 

is this what you mean seakayaker?

But it doesn't, that's the whole point. The shortest day is the 20-22nd day of winter in the meteorological sense, and the 1st day of winter in the astronomical sense. In no sense is it the middle of winter.

https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/aboutseasons.html

Unless your post is describing a new hypothetical season!

Edited November 20, 2016 by Nick L

[Mapantz]

I think where the OP is going wrong, is that his/her deciphering of the 'mid' prefix before Summer and Winter is wrong. They are interpreting it as 'middle' which is incorrect. Midsummer and Midwinter are names given to the date that the solstices occur, they don't mark the 'middle' of anything.

[Seasonality]

17 minutes ago, Lake District Blizzards said:

I think seaskayaker is also basing it on day length over anything else, so...

The shortest day marks the middle of winter. If winter was still 3 months long, then December 21st would be the 46th day of winter.

Therefore winter would begin on the 5th November and end on the 5th February.

 

is this what you mean seakayaker?

@seakayaker78 thinks it is winter now and he/she is wrong. Simple.

[Methuselah]

I think this 'problem' is made all the worse, for the fact that science itself has 2 definitions: astronomical and meteorological?

With, for example, weight (Newtons [kg x 'g'(m/s^2) and mass (kg) it's that laymen's terms differ from the scientific? But, as far as our seasons are concerned, the mistiness comes from the scientific community itself...?