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Where do France and Germany go from here

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The people involved in this apparently holed up and armed. Which terror group it is is unknown at the moment. Unlikely to be ISIS as they would have blown themselves up or carried on the attack until shot.

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13 minutes ago, The PIT said:

The people involved in this apparently holed up and armed. Which terror group it is is unknown at the moment. Unlikely to be ISIS as they would have blown themselves up or carried on the attack until shot.

I agree it doesn't sound like Isis. I have a suspicion maybe something to do with tourism demonstration group maybe . Anyway very familiar scenes 

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Confirming the importance yet again of border and immigration control for any country.

Rip to the poor victims until the world wakes up nobody is safe.

Edited by Love Snow

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2 hours ago, Summer Sun said:

Several people have been stabbed in Turku, south-west Finland

Finnish police: 2 dead and at least 8 injured

Attacker shot by police and arrested

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16 hours ago, Summer Sun said:

Finnish police: 2 dead and at least 8 injured

Attacker shot by police and arrested

Police are investigating this as a terror attack

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On 8/17/2017 at 17:37, weirpig said:

I agree it doesn't sound like Isis. I have a suspicion maybe something to do with tourism demonstration group maybe . Anyway very familiar scenes 

How wrong we were but that was mainly due to the reporting of the incident.

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Islamic State says it carried out the knife attack this morning in Surgut, Russia which injured 8 people

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One dead after car crashes into 2 bus shelters in Marseille unknown at this stage if it was an accident or deliberate car driver arrested 

 

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Just a thought, but shouldn't we: 

1) Have a general religious terrorism thread covering all religious terrorism, including all Abrahamic terrorism (Christian, muslim, jewish)? We've got loads of threads which are all over the place meaning terrorist incidents in e.g. Russia are in threads about France and Germany. 

2) Not report incidents of people being killed on such threads unless they are confirmed cases of terrorism? 

As an aside, but related and a strangle reflection of society, but we also now have a thread where people are reminiscing happily about the wonders of a war that resulted in the slaughter of 60 million people, yet there's mass hysteria over extremely rare terrorist attacks which present an insignificantly small threat to people, however tragic for the few involved. Truly bizarre.

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10 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

Just a thought, but shouldn't we: 

1) Have a general religious terrorism thread covering all religious terrorism, including all Abrahamic terrorism (Christian, muslim, jewish)? We've got loads of threads which are all over the place meaning terrorist incidents in e.g. Russia are in threads about France and Germany. 

2) Not report incidents of people being killed on such threads unless they are confirmed cases of terrorism? 

As an aside, but related and a strangle reflection of society, but we also now have a thread where people are reminiscing happily about the wonders of a war that resulted in the slaughter of 60 million people, yet there's mass hysteria over extremely rare terrorist attacks which present an insignificantly small threat to people, however tragic for the few involved. Truly bizarre.

:D  slow day at work ss?

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29 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

Just a thought, but shouldn't we: 

1) Have a general religious terrorism thread covering all religious terrorism, including all Abrahamic terrorism (Christian, muslim, jewish)? We've got loads of threads which are all over the place meaning terrorist incidents in e.g. Russia are in threads about France and Germany. 

2) Not report incidents of people being killed on such threads unless they are confirmed cases of terrorism? 

As an aside, but related and a strangle reflection of society, but we also now have a thread where people are reminiscing happily about the wonders of a war that resulted in the slaughter of 60 million people, yet there's mass hysteria over extremely rare terrorist attacks which present an insignificantly small threat to people, however tragic for the few involved. Truly bizarre.

As being the person who opened the World War II thread I feel compelled to answer this . I do indeed reminisce whilst understanding what terror our nation and others around the world went through  and have great interest in world war 2 and others and  it's effects which are arguably still being felt to this day . it's also excitable to see some good that come out of the world war such as space exploration etc. It is not my intention to glorify war I am more interested in history and what lessons can be learnt along with how quick technology accelerated in that period . So I make no apologies in starting the thread and appreciate the contributions to it so far and long may it continue, I will certainly continue to post in there as it is a major intrest of mine initially sparked from stories from my Grand Parents and seeing War pictures and medals that both Grand fathers earned on different fronts in the war . 

On the subject of the different threads on terrorist attacks I agree that we should only have one dedicated thread to it . You may want to ask the lady who has been travelling through Europe if these attacks are extremely rare though . Although I suppose some people have been struck by lightning more than once .

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/barcelona-attack-woman-las-ramblas-london-bridge-paris-julia-monaco-shopping-australian-melbourne-a7899386.html?amp

Edited by Mark wheeler

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51 minutes ago, Mark wheeler said:

As being the person who opened the World War II thread I feel compelled to answer this .

Sorry if you felt my comment was directed at you in any specific way; it wasn't. I was just a general reflection on the oddities of perspective in society about such things. How a few deaths can have us freaking out, yet 60 million has us staring at the sky feeling a sense of pride as war machines rumble past above. People do look back and reminisce about the war which for me is odd given it killed 60 million people.

I too have studied WWI and II in considerable depth. Also British history in general. Both subjects I have a strong interest in. Nothing wrong with that.

However, I don't feel any sense of pride or admiration about the whole thing as some seem to. Quite the contrast; I feel saddened / sick when I think about it. While I can appreciate the impressive technology (for the time) of a e.g. lancaster bomber, I could never feel e.g. pride at seeing one rumble overhead. After all, it's a killing machine, and when it passed over you all those decades ago, it was off to kill people in huge numbers. 

Spitfires, Lancasters, Shermans, AK-47's, cluster bombs, IEDs, nukes, suicide vests.. all technology designed to cause death, maiming and destruction.

As for 'war resulted in some good things'. This is another bizarre human thing; trying to see positives in the mass slaughter of humanity.

For me, for a war to have created good, then it must have resulted in something that gave a net benefit to society that could not have come about otherwise. 

I can think of nothing that fits this description, ergo, I can't agree that anything good came from the war. 60 million dead really does require some gargantuan making up for.

Anyway, I hope that makes sense. I'll leave it at that to not derail this thread. 

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On 8/21/2017 at 13:14, scottish skier said:

Sorry if you felt my comment was directed at you in any specific way; it wasn't. I was just a general reflection on the oddities of perspective in society about such things. How a few deaths can have us freaking out, yet 60 million has us staring at the sky feeling a sense of pride as war machines rumble past above. People do look back and reminisce about the war which for me is odd given it killed 60 million people.

I too have studied WWI and II in considerable depth. Also British history in general. Both subjects I have a strong interest in. Nothing wrong with that.

However, I don't feel any sense of pride or admiration about the whole thing as some seem to. Quite the contrast; I feel saddened / sick when I think about it. While I can appreciate the impressive technology (for the time) of a e.g. lancaster bomber, I could never feel e.g. pride at seeing one rumble overhead. After all, it's a killing machine, and when it passed over you all those decades ago, it was off to kill people in huge numbers. 

Spitfires, Lancasters, Shermans, AK-47's, cluster bombs, IEDs, nukes, suicide vests.. all technology designed to cause death, maiming and destruction.

As for 'war resulted in some good things'. This is another bizarre human thing; trying to see positives in the mass slaughter of humanity.

For me, for a war to have created good, then it must have resulted in something that gave a net benefit to society that could not have come about otherwise. 

I can think of nothing that fits this description, ergo, I can't agree that anything good came from the war. 60 million dead really does require some gargantuan making up for.

Anyway, I hope that makes sense. I'll leave it at that to not derail this thread. 

Your post made me think, in once sense you are of course completely correct, that killing machines should not make one feel pride. 60 million dead from WW2 is not in anyway good. However I think that is a simplistic approach. Yes 60 million died, but today we have at least 1 race/creed/religion, maybe even 2 or 3 that simply would have been wiped off the planet, just ask a Jew.

Should Britain have gone along with Hitler's plan? We had the option to do that, and most of the world including America thought that was the right way to go, at least initially. Were we wrong to build machines to fight the evil of Hitler? The pride I would say comes from those brave souls, who put their lives on the line to defend not only europe's but most of the world's way of life. Is the preservation of freedom not a good thing?

War is not like a motion picture, its a truly horrible thing, it brings out the best and worst in human nature. I have learnt what i know about WW2, through reading and watching for 40yrs, not through the education system, which would never dare to share the reality. The way in which educating our young is carried out about these things depends very much on the view they hold. There will not be many school children taught about the french village of Oradour-sur-Glane  and what happened there on 10th June 1944. Similarly there will not be many who know what really happened when allied troops entered Berlin.

Overall sometimes you do have to stand up and fight to preserve what is right, and i think we did that in WW2, and yes I feel we can feel pride at saving the Jewish nation and the freedoms we have today..

 

   

 

       

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8 hours ago, HighPressure said:

Your post made me think, in once sense you are of course completely correct, that killing machines should not make one feel pride....

....Overall sometimes you do have to stand up and fight to preserve what is right, and i think we did that in WW2, and yes I feel we can feel pride at saving the Jewish nation and the freedoms we have today..

This is not the thread for such a discussion, and at the same time I'm not interested in derailing the WWII thread with what is more a general moral question. So, I'll be brief in clarifying my point a little more.

There is no glory in war. It is necessary sometimes for the reasons you state, but it's a horrible, dirty, ugly, destructive business with absolutely no glory in it.

To feel pride* is to glorify war. I understand where feelings of pride could come from; you state these clearly. However, for me, any feelings of pride when I think of these achievements are extremely fleeting as immediately the gargantuan horror of 60 million dead hits me, making me feel sickness / sadnass / despair.

To properly feel pride, I would have to forget the horror of war so as to wallow in the pleasure / satisfaction of what was achieved. That does happen to people to an extent 'innocently' (while of course some people are just evil so don't feel empathy with others), and is to an extent forgivable. It's why we must constantly remind people of the horrors of war; so it is never glorified, even unintentionally. When people look at a machine gun, it is vital they see a young boy, barely out of his teens with his legs shorn off screaming for his mother while tears run down his cheeks. When they see a Lancaster, they need to imagine a mother and baby wailing as they are consumed by fire in the ruined remains of their home. After all, that is the purpose of these machines. 

If we get people to imagine this instead of feeling wonder, pride and glory, then we avoid ever having to use killing machines. When we forget the horrors, we walk towards war once more.

I trust that makes sense.

----

*

pride
prʌɪd/
noun
 
  1. 1.
    a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of one's close associates, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired.
Edited by scottish skier

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To bring the dicussion back on topic...

We can return to 'muslims not doing enough to combat extremism / just turning a blind eye'.

Quote

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/08/26/world/middleeast/26reuters-mideast-crisis-iraq-tal-afar.html

Islamic State Stronghold Tal Afar About to Fall, Says Iraqi Military

TAL AFAR, Iraq — Iraqi forces raised the national flag on Saturday in the heart of Tal Afar, Islamic State's stronghold in the country's northwest, and said they were poised to take full control of the city after a week-long offensive.

 

Edited by scottish skier

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How can you take that news ^^ at face value.

Slightly off topic as no thread suitable as this is the closest as its in Europe.

europe

Landmark CETA trade deal between Canada and EU enters into force.

http://www.france24.com/en/20170921-canada-european-union-eu-landmark-ceta-trade-deal-takes-effect

 

Edited by Snowyowl9

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