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UK & EU Economies post Brexit

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3 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

What's the will of the people?

The leavers have not specified this. They're asking Remain politicians to implement something they have not specified.

What about in the EEA with full freedom of movement, adherence to EU laws but no say in these, and membership financial contributions to the EU largely as now? That would be 'out of the EU' as per the ballot question.

It's the Brexiters' problem; they've created it and they've nurtured it. Now please can they be kind enough to look after it?

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5 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

What's the will of the people?

The leavers have not specified this.

Yes, SS, that's an open question.   Did the leavers really vote for a government department of squabbling brexit politicians who still can’t agree the end game?

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4 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

Apologies Dave...It was meant as a joke, and nowt else. And, you are quite right, my comment does look stupid...It was never supposed to anything different...:D

In an ever changing world, it's refreshing to see some things can always be relied on the remain the same....:yahoo:

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3 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

It's the Brexiters' problem; they've created it and they've nurtured it. Now please can they be kind enough to look after it?

Incorrect..... it's the Tory governments problem, they provided the platform for it's creation, therefore it's now their job to look after it.  

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7 minutes ago, ciel said:

 

Yes, SS, that's an open question.   Did the leavers really vote for a government department of squabbling brexit politicians who still can’t agree the end game?

 

No, they voted to leave the EU and that is what's going to happen. Where Scotland and N Ireland end up in all this remains to be seen, but I suspect that ultimately they will be dragged out too by Westminster whether they like it or not.

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7 minutes ago, coldcomfort said:

No, they voted to leave the EU and that is what's going to happen. Where Scotland and N Ireland end up in all this remains to be seen, but I suspect that ultimately they will be dragged out too by Westminster whether they like it or not.

Yes, but leaving the EU is open ended.

Let's say the department for brexit comes up with a rubbish deal which is totally crap for the UK (in the eyes of leavers in particular). Say they accept freedom of movement + massive quotas of Syrian migrants. To keep trading with the EU the UK needs to pay double what it currently pays. However, the UK gets some sovereignty back over fishing but that's it; all other EU laws apply. It is however, officially, no longer a member of the EU.

Would that be the 'will of the people'? 

Remain had a plan. Leave didn't. We know what the will of Remainers is. It's leavers we don't.

Edited by scottish skier

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16 minutes ago, coldcomfort said:

There is nothing ridiculous about it, because it is the job of those in government to implement the will of the people, not to only implement the bits they agree with. They now have a very important job to do, so they need to leave the dummy throwing about the result to the likes of the many remainers on here, who since Jun 24th have turned whinging and whining into something an art form.

If you amend, 'it is the job of those in government to implement the will of the people' to 'it is the job of those in government to implement the will of the people through elected representatives in parliament' it may be more accurate.

But it is a valid point though, the leavers screamed and screamed until they a majority in a suspect referendum, now they don't know what to do, they had no plans made, meanwhile we are all in Sierra Hotel India Tango creek.

Best scrub the whole bloody thing, go back to the EU, tell them we are most dreadfully sorry for all the inconvenience we have caused and let's all get on with our lives putting this unhappy episode behind us.  

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13 minutes ago, coldcomfort said:

Incorrect..... it's the Tory governments problem, they provided the platform for it's creation, therefore it's now their job to look after it.  

Intriguing piece of logic is that...So, if an innocent man gets hanged for a murder he didn't commit, we all blame whoever built the scaffold? Nice!

Farage and Co, in a moment of self-obsessed carelessness perhaps, created their not-so-beautiful baby. So why should Farage & Co not stay around long enough to see it grow...Time for a sharp exit!

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18 minutes ago, coldcomfort said:

No, they voted to leave the EU

That's true.......without the slightest understanding of the consequences of their vote.

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22 minutes ago, mike Meehan said:

If you amend, 'it is the job of those in government to implement the will of the people' to 'it is the job of those in government to implement the will of the people through elected representatives in parliament' it may be more accurate.

But it is a valid point though, the leavers screamed and screamed until they a majority in a suspect referendum, now they don't know what to do, they had no plans made, meanwhile we are all in Sierra Hotel India Tango creek.

Best scrub the whole bloody thing, go back to the EU, tell them we are most dreadfully sorry for all the inconvenience we have caused and let's all get on with our lives putting this unhappy episode behind us.  

Sounds like that is rather unlikely to happen, but who am I to crush your dreams....:D http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/26/theresa-may-will-trigger-brexit-negotiations-without-commons-vot/

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12 minutes ago, ciel said:

That's true.......without the slightest understanding of the consequences of their vote.

Again, who is to blame for that? 

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As a member of the SNP, I'm party to confidential documents.

Just got a copy of the plan for iref2. It's taken a lot from the EUref.

The plan is that there will be no white paper this time. There will be zero plans for what happens if Scots vote Yes. Nothing on relationship to the EU, trade deals with the UK.. Zero, zip, zilch.

The entire campaign will largely focus on just shouting the words 'sovereignty', saying mass immigration from England will be controlled, and that Scotland will save £350 million a day by leaving the UK. Where this 350 million will come from won't be specified exactly.

Then, when this results in a 'Yes' vote, the SNP will relinquish control of Holyrood and demand the unionist parties get on with organising independence; and it better be an independence that the people wanted!

It's genius. What could possibly go wrong.

Edited by scottish skier

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26 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

Intriguing piece of logic is that...So, if an innocent man gets hanged for a murder he didn't commit, we all blame whoever built the scaffold? Nice!

Farage and Co, in a moment of self-obsessed carelessness perhaps, created their not-so-beautiful baby. So why should Farage & Co not stay around long enough to see it grow...Time for a sharp exit!

Incorrect yet again....It was Cameron who created this in an attempt to unify his party, but since he has chosen to take the cowards way out it is now down to his predecessor to clear up the mess, which means honouring the majority vote of the electorate and leaving the EU. 

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3 minutes ago, coldcomfort said:

Again, who is to blame for that? 

Well 48% of voters were capable of exercising reasoned judgement on the information available.  I would add that had their been genuine interest or concern as to the consequences of brexit, there was a mountain of material available apart from the official campaign nonsense or tabloid newspapers.

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5 minutes ago, ciel said:

Well 48% of voters were capable of exercising reasoned judgement on the information available.  I would add that had their been genuine interest or concern as to the consequences of brexit, there was a mountain of material available apart from the official campaign nonsense or tabloid newspapers.

So are you suggesting that all 48% who voted Remain did so because they exercised reasoned judgement on the information available?

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1 hour ago, Ed Stone said:

Apologies Dave...It was meant as a joke, and nowt else. And, you are quite right, my comment does look stupid...It was never supposed to anything different...:D

Thanks.

I noticed the usual suspects 'liked' it though.............:D

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11 minutes ago, coldcomfort said:

Incorrect yet again....It was Cameron who created this in an attempt to unify his party, but since he has chosen to take the cowards way out it is now down to his predecessor to clear up the mess, which means honouring the majority vote of the electorate and leaving the EU. 

Well, for someone who's so fantastically proud of your 'great victory', you do seem to be doing your utmost to offload any responsibility for its likely outcome...Not that I believe you've any more idea than I have about what those outcomes might be. None whatsoever! What do we want? Eh? When do we want it? Now!

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3 minutes ago, DAVID SNOW said:

Thanks.

I noticed the usual suspects 'liked' it though.............:D

Cheers Dave. Maybe they took it they way I meant it?:D

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17 minutes ago, coldcomfort said:

So are you suggesting that all 48% who voted Remain did so because they exercised reasoned judgement on the information available?

48% had the sense not to be sucked in by meaningless slogans,  gross misinformation and a rampant right wing press.

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1 hour ago, Ed Stone said:

Cheers Dave. Maybe they took it they way I meant it?:D

Maybe Pete, but I very much doubt it.:D

 

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1 hour ago, ciel said:

48% had the sense not to be sucked in by meaningless slogans,  gross misinformation and a rampant right wing press.

Well obviously, considering the entire 48% were intellectually superior and still are.....didn't stop them losing tho did it....:yahoo: 

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So tell us what you want fgs! We can create anything and call it Brexit. It could look exactly like what we have now, except we have no say, or it could be total isolation, or something in between.

Just stop moaning about us and tell us what you want. You won, we get it, now stop wasting energy rubbing our noses in it and gloating and bluddy well DO SOMETHING!

I'm beginning to think you didn't want to leave as such, just to beat those you hold responsible for something, you're not sure quite what,  but "na na na na na we won!"

Edited by davehsug

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7 minutes ago, davehsug said:

So tell us what you want fgs! We can create anything and call it Brexit. It could look exactly like what we have now, except we have no say, or it could be total isolation, or something in between.

Just stop moaning about us and tell us what you want. You won, we get it, now stop wasting energy rubbing our noses in it and gloating and bluddy well DO SOMETHING!

I'm beginning to think you didn't want to leave as such, just to beat those you hold responsible for something, you're not sure quite what,  but "na na na na na we won!"

I don't know either, Daveshug...Apart from some kind of nebulous utopia, a land of milk and honey, who knows what they want? No plans, no end-product, no nothing...Either the 48% that saw through the lies are too thick to get the gist, or there is no gist to get?

Given the swift exit of Gove, Farage and Johnson, the 'no gist' hypothesis is my personal favourite...Occam's Razor wins again?

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12 minutes ago, davehsug said:

So tell us what you want fgs! We can create anything and call it Brexit. It could look exactly like what we have now, except we have no say, or it could be total isolation, or something in between.

Just stop moaning about us and tell us what you want. You won, we get it, now stop wasting energy rubbing our noses in it and gloating and bluddy well DO SOMETHING!

I'm beginning to think you didn't want to leave as such, just to beat those you hold responsible for something, you're not sure quite what,  but "na na na na na we won!"

Calm down dear! What do you want me to do, I'm not in a position to influence anything, but thankfully I did take the one and only chance to do so when offered on Jun 23rd....as did 17 million others. So I'm now more than happy to let the Brexit negotiators formulate a plan on my behalf, but the one thing I want to see at the centre of it is an end to free, unfettered movement of people from the EU, with some sort of points based system introduced to replace it. Beyond that I'm happy to consider all options, of which I'm sure there will be many.  

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4 hours ago, alexisj9 said:

Parliaments holiday finishes soon, may be we'll start to hear about intentions soon, I hope so anyway, I also hope it settles things down economically for a bit. That really should be the first priority.

Personally I don't think they should have gone on holiday at all this year, they should have stayed in office and started working on problems associated with brexit immediately. 

Hello Alexisj and other posters.

I know that it is difficult for any Government to get the timing right on important matters such as the date for holding a referendum as there are always reasons why they should not be held on a particular date. With hindsight ( a particularly useful commodity) it was not the wisest of dates, 

My reason for saying this is that almost immediately after it was held everyone at Westminster went off for their 6 weeks holidays leaving everything in an enormous political vacuum, especially as Dave Boy resigned and we then had the farce of the Tory leadership contest, only exceeded by the Labour Party's own ongoing leadership/beauty contest farce.

It would have been much better if it had been held when there was a liklihood that Parliament was in session. At least then it would give an appearance of us being open for business.

I agree with Nick S that the referendum will not/ should not be rerun, as enough money has already been wasted on an albeit flawed democratic process. We just have to get on with it and make the best out of a less than rosy situation, which I fear over the months to come will only get worse.

Personally a downturn in the economy will likely have little effect on me, but it will poorer members in society and I take no comfort from this.

It is sad that a large number of relations/friends and acquaintances that I have spoken to that voted for Brexit did so for reasons that were nought to do with EU membership:-

Examples included:-

  • Can't get a doctor's appointment
  • Too many Asians living here
  • The cost of goods here will be cheaper
  • We can become self-sufficient as a nation
  • We have no say in Europe and have to do everything those nasty Europeans tell us to.

I live in hope that although the result was based on large numbers of people voting the way they did through ill conceived ideas, the result at the end of the day was the correct one for the long term good of the country, One can only hope and pray that this is the case, as there is very little that Joe Public can do now that the decision has been made.

I have previously rehearsed the notion of too much red tape, but to my recollection other posters have not given me details of what red tape they wish to get rid of, and I am not convinced that leaving the EU will decrease the red tape. If anything, if we have to negotiate trade deals with a multitude of countries the amount could well increase.

Kind Regards

Dave

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