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The PIT

Labour Leadership

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2 hours ago, alexisj9 said:

Can you explain why ed miliband flopped then?

He was in charge, and then he resigned and corbyn got voted to his place.

The hijacking I see is this new leadership battle where people are trying to take over by stabbing corbyn in the back.

Before this latest coop in the party, they were slowly starting to make some ground.

Apart from being a tit, he was in denial about the defecit along with Ed Balls. Consequently, and for lots of other reasons, one lost an election and the other his seat.

The middle ground is where elections are won and lost which is why Corbyn will be never lead his party anywhere near government. Worse than that, he can't even lead an effective opposition.

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22 minutes ago, markyo said:

Not yet,may be i should do! We may differ in our views but i suspect we want the same thing. Social,fair society not ruled by big corporate business,how we get there..well thats the problem!

I'd recommend it. It asks some very interesting and difficult questions. You also get to see how evaluations were made for party positions.

Yes, I suspect we're probably not far from each other in terms of stance.

 

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2 hours ago, Ed Stone said:

. I can't a Labour Party dominated by Militant Tendency Momentum gaining popular support - ergo, shout a lot, from the opposition benches??? Just what we don't need!

Well, opposing from the opposotion benches, including actually voting against Tory policies, would be a good start.

In recent years, Labour just abstained on everything. That's the result of making your policy platform similar to the Tories; you can't vote against them.

If Blairism hadn't occurred, the UK would be much less right-wing politically today, even if the Tories had remained in power. Blairism shifted the political debate centre ground from the actual centre, increasingly to the centre-right. For example, it stopped being about uni fees (privatisation) or no uni fees, but about how much fees should be. Instead of public NHS vs privatisation, it became about what degree of privatisation, etc.

In Scotland's it's still the regular centre. 

Edited by scottish skier

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But many opposition benches won't be occupied by labour MP's come the next general election which is why the Parliamentary Party MPs are in panic mode for fear of losing their seats. 

Opposition from a Islington Middle Eastern coffee shop isn't the way forward.

Edited by kar999
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6 hours ago, Ed Stone said:

What's the point of a political party if it's not got the slightest chance of ever being elected? I fear a return to the unfettered ideology of the 1980s: a morally bankrupt Conservative Party being able to enact whatever nonsense it liked, just because Labour had committed electoral suicide...Do we really want to revisit that degree of unmitigated sleaze again?

That's where the labour party is already, and this latest backstabbing is just making things worse.

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Jeremy Corbyn has secured the all-important UB40 vote.

Although it seems there are actually 2 UB40s, one with the original singer and one without. So there may be split factions within the UB40 vote.

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The whole feed is amazing:

https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon

Someone asks what politicians can learn from bands. "Teamwork," says Jeremy Corbyn. "Bands stick together. Well, until they fall out"

Edit: God, I hope someone filmed it.

Edited by Yarmy

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Corbyn is going to have a political officer in each mp's office. These will be Momentum supporters who's only role is likely to be checking up on the MP and making sure they toe the party line. Sounds like something that belongs in the Russia and China.

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3 hours ago, The PIT said:

Corbyn is going to have a political officer in each mp's office. These will be Momentum supporters who's only role is likely to be checking up on the MP and making sure they toe the party line. Sounds like something that belongs in the Russia and China.

Yes....the term Corbynista is getting more appropriate as the weeks roll on.

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3 hours ago, The PIT said:

Corbyn is going to have a political officer in each mp's office. These will be Momentum supporters who's only role is likely to be checking up on the MP and making sure they toe the party line. Sounds like something that belongs in the Russia and China.

I'm assuming this is your source...http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/corbyn-defends-momentum-spies_uk_57decbe2e4b0d584f7f17009

If so I think it's a bit of a leap to suggest "going to have a political officer in each mp's office", more like new positions within the CLPs, which may in itself be a little unusual but far from the connotations that "political officer" raises.

 

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Some thoughts. All the politicians and media saying Corbin can't will an election as if it is a fact. According to who? I remember watching the odds on a Brexit being completely wrong at 10pm on polling night. They don't know!

Secondly, so much mud being thrown at Corbyn and not just by Labour but by all parties and the media. Why! He never says a bad word about anyone, even when Owen Smith slates him personally night after night! The answer is ... they abuse him because they are all scared of him. The Tories, Labour and the media. Not that he'll win anything. No. They're scared of him because he says exactly what he thinks. He won't be controlled by the "rules" of pleasing the media and he won't compromise his principles. The political class and the media are terrified of someone like that getting in the position he has accidentally got himself into. When Labour shifted to the Tories in the 90s, they were effectively selling out to the media/political system of the time. Corbyn threatens to break that. Yes he probably won't win anything. But the establishment are terrified that he might. They are desperate to get rid of him - before there's any chance enough people will decide he might be worth following. If he gets in power, the establishment risks losing everything.

Just some thoughts!

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The lack of interest in this thread leading up to the last day of voting today says everything about Labour's current problems. 

There is apathy and resignation that the party is now firmly controlled by the unelectable hard left and led by an ineffectual fantasist. Every day he remains in charge the Tories get stronger. 

The best we can hope for now is an early GE. Labour's trouncing will be of record proportions - my prediction is for them to be well inside 100 seats. Maybe some grown ups can then take charge and form a credible opposition.

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10 minutes ago, Dougal said:

The lack of interest in this thread leading up to the last day of voting today says everything about Labour's current problems. 

There is apathy and resignation that the party is now firmly controlled by the unelectable hard left and led by an ineffectual fantasist. Every day he remains in charge the Tories get stronger. 

The best we can hope for now is an early GE. Labour's trouncing will be of record proportions - my prediction is for them to be well inside 100 seats. Maybe some grown ups can then take charge and form a credible opposition.

Who though, because if Owen Smith was the best they could come up with to replace Corbyn then they really are in trouble. Actually, given how thier MPs have behaved during this 'rebellion' I doubt they have many "grown ups" to choose from. 

If Corbyn wins, which seems highly likely, will the MPs grow up and back they guy who's been democratically elected as thier leader for the second time? If not, they should resign, force by-elections and stand as independents. If they really believe a Corbyn led Labour party is unelectable then they should have no fears of not regaining thier seats standing against 'official Labour' candidates. 

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2 minutes ago, Ravelin said:

Who though, because if Owen Smith was the best they could come up with to replace Corbyn then they really are in trouble. Actually, given how thier MPs have behaved during this 'rebellion' I doubt they have many "grown ups" to choose from. 

If Corbyn wins, which seems highly likely, will the MPs grow up and back they guy who's been democratically elected as thier leader for the second time? If not, they should resign, force by-elections and stand as independents. If they really believe a Corbyn led Labour party is unelectable then they should have no fears of not regaining thier seats standing against 'official Labour' candidates. 

I agree, I think a mass resignation and a party split are highly likely. If not, we face the prospect of the two biggest 'parties' being the opposing Tory factions.

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1 hour ago, Ravelin said:

Who though, because if Owen Smith was the best they could come up with to replace Corbyn then they really are in trouble. Actually, given how thier MPs have behaved during this 'rebellion' I doubt they have many "grown ups" to choose from. 

If Corbyn wins, which seems highly likely, will the MPs grow up and back they guy who's been democratically elected as thier leader for the second time? If not, they should resign, force by-elections and stand as independents. If they really believe a Corbyn led Labour party is unelectable then they should have no fears of not regaining thier seats standing against 'official Labour' candidates. 

Labour are firmly in the hands of the big unions...again.

Why did Unite ping me numerous emails in the weeks leading up to the leadership election begging me to become an affiliate member. Some of those union leaders have been encouraging de-selection of disloyal MPs.

And to answer MWB's post earlier Labour will not get in power with Corbyn and his jackboot troops in control. The 'power' lies with the segments of society who's demographic fit just couldnt vote for a Left-wing Labour party. 

These groups hold over 90% of the Wealth, are more likely to actually vote and are [email protected] scared of what a Corbyn-Labour might do to their wealth - that demographic is the Over 50s, who are the largest segment of the population. 

 

Edited by Bristle boy
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1 hour ago, Ed Stone said:

Eighty defections, to the Lib-Dems, would make for some fun-and-games come the next GE?

It would be Pete, but even thinking back to the SDP split, Labour MPs tend to be very loyal to the party, many seeing it as a family.

It might seem logical to us outsiders, but I can't see mass defections, unless the threat of large scale de-selections by the Momentum entryists comes to fruition. 

Either way Labour has had it, probably for a generation and unless something totally unexpected emerges from the moderate left, we are condemned to a couple of decades of Tory misrule.

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Tories behaved like grown ups recently didn't they, turning on each other and stabbing each other in the back. Some people in this thread have short memories.:rofl:

Edited by lassie23
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10 minutes ago, lassie23 said:

Tories behaved like grown ups recently didn't they, turning on each other and stabbing each other in the back. Some people in this thread have short memories.:rofl:

That's typical Tory behaviour, but despite their hatred for each other, they're even more in love with power. How exactly May is going to come up with a deal that will satisfy both Liam Fox and Ken Clarke is another matter.

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4 hours ago, Dougal said:

The lack of interest in this thread leading up to the last day of voting today says everything about Labour's current problems. 

There is apathy and resignation that the party is now firmly controlled by the unelectable hard left and led by an ineffectual fantasist. Every day he remains in charge the Tories get stronger. 

The best we can hope for now is an early GE. Labour's trouncing will be of record proportions - my prediction is for them to be well inside 100 seats. Maybe some grown ups can then take charge and form a credible opposition.

It's interesting to go on some of the "seat predictor" websites because if you put in Tories 43% Labour 28% (which is the best opinion poll for the Tories I've seen recently) it still only results in Labour losing around 40 seats.

What I think this may not pick up on is that Labour may well pile up votes and increase their majorities in safe seats (your Islington's for example) but lose heavily in the marginal's, and maybe not so marginal's, in the midlands and the North West giving them a much lower seat tally than the 190 or so this would suggest.

In terms of "moderate" Labour MPs standing as independents, I would imagine this would be a godsend to the Tories and especially UKIP up north.

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But I don't care a jot about the Tories, as I'll never be voting for them again...It's Labour's self-inflicted malarkey that's giving me cause for concern; if ever there was a time in which we needed a strong, united opposition, surely that time is now?

Why can't we simply lock Momentum's goons in a room with the right-wing swivel-eyes, and let them destroy each other?

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24 minutes ago, davehsug said:

That's typical Tory behaviour, but despite their hatred for each other, they're even more in love with power. How exactly May is going to come up with a deal that will satisfy both Liam Fox and Ken Clarke is another matter.

Simples. Deselect Ken Clarke!:rofl:

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15 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

But I don't care a jot about the Tories, as I'll never be voting for them again...It's Labour's self-inflicted malarkey that's giving me cause for concern; if ever there was a time in which we needed a strong, united opposition, surely that time is now?

Why can't we simply lock Momentum's goons in a room with the right-wing swivel-eyes, and let them destroy each other?

Hang on a minute -  don’t forget we’re constantly advised that we live in the world’s greatest democracy, with the best health and other public services etc and a fully informed hoi polloi who vote for the ideals or the representatives of these extremes. :nea:

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