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SW Saltire

Have views towards 'mental health' liberalised in recent decades?

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Yeah, so basically 2 points.

1) thread title -

Do you think your own and/or society's views have changed towards mental health and towards those who are suffering? 

2) Do you judge those with scars etc? 

 

It was never a topic I thought of when 15, 16 etc but in the last year or so I've had far more 'dealings' with stuff of this nature.

Whether that be female partners who I try to support with regard to past problems and/or show them not all men are like that ie abusive, controlling, (insert expletive basically)

Or whether that is threw some of my closest friends admitting that they have cut themselves.

Personally, it is not something I would do. However, I have been a bit depressed recently with stuff going on. 

For me, I'd more likely decide to lay someone out if they got cheeky or deliberately crash my car (probably my biggest issue, if alone, in my car, quiet motorway... If I experienced an actual tragedy then I'm not driving for a bit) but not self-harm.

or any other mental illness/breakdown/coping mechanism... So depression etc. This thread is open to whatever.

My attitude has changed, I think my age group are fairly liberal and sympathetic but I don't know.

I joke, I joke, my real intention when creating this thread was to depress everyone and bring up a deeply dark subject ;) (Christmas and all!)

just wondered what the wise netweather members thought? :)

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Yes, thankfully, but it still has a long way to go. 

I am ashamed to say I used to be quite ignorant about mental health, I used to think most were just attention seekers and could be better if they really wanted to be. My only defence was that I was a really young teenager at the time, thankfully I lost that opinion pretty quickly.

I don't judge people with scars at all. I just feel sad for them that they were in such a bad place and happy for them that they have come through it. It's not something I've ever really done even though I have been in the deepest, darkest pit of depression and anxiety, but that's just how others sometimes deal with it. That's fine.

But there is still a way to go, most people will not openly talk about their mental health or admit they see a mental health professional, most will omit it from a job application. That's quite crazy (no pun intended) when you think a quarter of us (probably more) will have a mental health problem at some point in our lives. By far the biggest way to go is in mental health provision, it is one of the most underfunded and underresourced illnesses in the UK, despite a fair chunk of the population requiring services. In many locations you have to be practically suicidal to access adult services (thankfully thresholds are much lower for children's services). Early intervention services and low intensity community services that stopped it getting worse have nearly all been cut. There's a further 20% reduction in mental health inpatient beds to be cut despite being at a situation for the last few weeks in child and adult mental health where there has not been a single inpatient bed available in the country, so people have been sitting in A&E for days on end or sent home with a crisis team until a bed is ready. Can you imagine that happening for a physical health problem? Suicide is the biggest killer of young men and yet help is being further cut. You think A&E runs on a shoestring? You haven't seen mental health services.

That's why Jeremy Hunt disgusts me so much. He bangs on about 'disgusting' mental health services, long waiting lists, increasing deaths and yet he is the one pulling the trigger. You know where that extra money for physical health is coming from? Yep, mental health services.

That's why I actively support the fight for better funding, after your GP, it's the health service you are most likely to use and yet it one of the poorest funded. I also will fight against people taking advantage of mental health problems for their own gain, for example people claiming to be depressed because it's easy to fake to avoid work and claim DLA, people claiming mental illness to avoid prison or other responsibilities etc. Sadly it is far more common than you'd think.

 

I long for the day when people can talk about mental health as they do about physical health and for it to be treated the same in both funding and attitudes by employers, the public and media.

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Less stigmatised, certainly - but like Lauren says, there are still misconceptions floating around.

I was diagnosed with depression when I was 14. A lot of nights I would stay awake crying, wishing for myself to die. I was extremely angry most of the time - I'd throw things at walls, at people, getting into fights, you name it. I was becoming a total tearaway. I ended up getting arrested 3 times and went to court.. had to do some 'community work' which involved walking dogs with a youth worker.. I actually enjoyed it funnily enough and it was nice to have someone to walk to, someone who could understand what I was feeling at the time and had similar experiences.

It's not common practice to give antidepressants to under 18s so I saw numerous school counselors for a while.. some were helpful, others not so much. I also started CBT via my GP - which was helpful. I started taking antidepressants after I turned 18 - though I no longer take them after discussing it with my doctor about how to reduce and totally stop the dosage safely without getting any nasty side effects. I feel pretty good right now, but there are still odd days where I want to stay in bed and not go anywhere.

I think people suffering from depression have different ways of showing it. Some just retreat into a corner, others self-harm, while people such as myself get angry.

I don't really feel comfortable telling people about my past experiences precisely because I'm afraid of being judged. There might also be a genetic link - my mother and grandmother take antidepressants, while my sister takes mood stabilising pills because she has problems with anger.

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58 minutes ago, Lauren said:

Yes, thankfully, but it still has a long way to go. 

I am ashamed to say I used to be quite ignorant about mental health, I used to think most were just attention seekers and could be better if they really wanted to be. My only defence was that I was a really young teenager at the time, thankfully I lost that opinion pretty quickly.

I don't judge people with scars at all. I just feel sad for them that they were in such a bad place and happy for them that they have come through it. It's not something I've ever really done even though I have been in the deepest, darkest pit of depression and anxiety, but that's just how others sometimes deal with it. That's fine.

But there is still a way to go, most people will not openly talk about their mental health or admit they see a mental health professional, most will omit it from a job application. That's quite crazy (no pun intended) when you think a quarter of us (probably more) will have a mental health problem at some point in our lives. By far the biggest way to go is in mental health provision, it is one of the most underfunded and underresourced illnesses in the UK, despite a fair chunk of the population requiring services. In many locations you have to be practically suicidal to access adult services (thankfully thresholds are much lower for children's services). Early intervention services and low intensity community services that stopped it getting worse have nearly all been cut. There's a further 20% reduction in mental health inpatient beds to be cut despite being at a situation for the last few weeks in child and adult mental health where there has not been a single inpatient bed available in the country, so people have been sitting in A&E for days on end or sent home with a crisis team until a bed is ready. Can you imagine that happening for a physical health problem? Suicide is the biggest killer of young men and yet help is being further cut. You think A&E runs on a shoestring? You haven't seen mental health services.

That's why Jeremy Hunt disgusts me so much. He bangs on about 'disgusting' mental health services, long waiting lists, increasing deaths and yet he is the one pulling the trigger. You know where that extra money for physical health is coming from? Yep, mental health services.

That's why I actively support the fight for better funding, after your GP, it's the health service you are most likely to use and yet it one of the poorest funded. I also will fight against people taking advantage of mental health problems for their own gain, for example people claiming to be depressed because it's easy to fake to avoid work and claim DLA, people claiming mental illness to avoid prison or other responsibilities etc. Sadly it is far more common than you'd think.

 

I long for the day when people can talk about mental health as they do about physical health and for it to be treated the same in both funding and attitudes by employers, the public and media.

I agree with your post. In my view the reason for the underfunding has a lot to do with the bolded part, it is unfortunate that the government think they can save money by pretending that all who have the beginnings of mental illness are faking so make it harder for people to get the help they need. It becomes more obvious they need help before it can be accessed for anyone over 18 now. Even then most need more care then they are getting. Thing is if you let thing get that far, which can be avoided it is more expensive to help. 

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Originally we had the mental hospitals which we referred to in the vernacular as 'lunatic asylums' - during the course of my duties I had occasion to visit a couple, Leavesden Mental Hospital at Watford and Hill End Hospital just outside St Albans.

They were old buildings from the Victorian era and contained some secure wards and as such I found them extremely depressing places.

I imaged that if a person were not mentally ill when he was taken in there the effect of this environment would make him so.

Fortunately these have now been razed to ground and in the case of Leavesden dwelling houses now occupy the site.

But, I believe there is still the necessity to have such hospitals where people suffering can be detained for their own safety and that of the public.

I recall back in the late 70's we had a call to a particular village where the parents of a lad about 20 years of age were at their wits end because he suffered from mental illness which from time to time would blow up.

This was one such occasion and in desperation the parents, who were intelligent caring people, called the police. We attended and sure enough something needed to be done, in fact for the parents as much as anything else.

Now there is such a thing as a three day under section 136 of the Mental Health Act and this empowered a constable to detain any person he found in a public place and convey him to a mental hospital if he deemed that the person was either a danger to himself or others.

There was little doubt in my mind that this young man was both, the problem was that he was still in the house. I explained the law to the parents and they inveigled him onto the roadway outside - this then gave us the power to act.

The night area car crew conveyed him to Hill End Hospital with the necessary forms duly made and I went off duty.

The following morning when I returned to work I was quite surprised to find him being fingerprinted in the CID office. I enquired as to what had happened and was informed that in their wisdom the staff had Hill End had declined to accept this lad on a three day order so there was no alternative but to convey him back to his home address.

Then during the night the situation kicked off again. There must have been some urgency in it because the night area car crew rushed up there, stopped the car in the driveway to go to the house with the least possible delay.

Unfortunately the police driver left the keys in the ignition. Whilst the officers were speaking to the parents this lad sneaked outside, got into the area car and drove it off and ended up driving around the villages of the area. Having found the controls to the two tone horn and the blue light he played with those as well. It must have been like a scene from, 'One flew over the cuckoo's nest'.

Eventually after some time he was stopped, arrested and taken to the police station where I saw him later that morning.

The purpose of this epistle is to demonstrate that in the case of mental illness it is not just the patient who suffers, it is his family and carers as well and they and the effects on them should also be considered.

Since the necessary demolition of all these hideous mental hospitals, rather than replace them the governments opted for treatment in the community but invested far too little money into this system and as a result the occasional mental patient has killed a member of the public.

So what we really need is proper investment into treatment, care for and sometimes secure detention where necessary for these patients but as usual the government thinks up what it considers to be these wonderful ideas whilst at the same time penny pinching without giving sufficient thought or paying fuller attention to the people on the ground, who have knowledge, to all the ramifications concerned.  

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1) Certainly compared to past decades, there has been an overall improvement in the attitude towards those suffering from mental health problems, although as you have already pointed out, mental health is a blanket term for anything from mild depression to sometimes debilitating mental disorders such as Schizophrenia. I suspect that there is some sort of 'spectrum of acceptance' whereby illnesses considered by society to be of lesser severity are somehow more acceptable as being normal, whereas those that remain rather shrouded in mystery and misunderstanding (such as Bipolar or Schizophrenia) are still viewed by some as being 'dangerous' illnesses that pose a threat to society (they rarely are, as anyone who has ever spent even five minutes of research will hopefully know).

I think perhaps the social media era is both a help and a hindrance (as usual) because of its ability to spread the word about almost anything, and yet simultaneously make the world feel like a lonely place where everyone has perfect lives and no-one suffers with anything.

 

2) No, I try not to. But many do, perhaps not meaning to. I don't have a great deal of personal experience, but I can relate to certain aspects. I do hope more funding is provided in the future, it is folly to be taking money away from what I had previously thought was a developing area of care that is surely an obligation.

 

 

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I can't really say if they've improved as I'm still quite young, but even over short time scales I think awareness at least has been improved significantly. Campaigns over social media especially seem to help. Of course, you still have ignorant fools, you always will. But the truth is anybody can be affected by mental health issues, it's indiscriminate and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Regarding point number two, let's just say it would be hypocritical of me to judge those who have engaged in self-harm. 

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Thank you to everyone who has responded. If I have more time (I'm off Friday - work is hectic until Christmas) then I'll respond to some points raised.

Agree with basically everything that has been said. 

I thought I wasn't going to get any replies, I was thinking what an idiot I was for starting this thread. Coming across as some deranged, depressed person.

 

So thanks. 

I was exactly the same as Lauren used to be about a year ago tbh. 

I wasn't judgemental per se, but I couldn't possibly understand it. 

Whereas now, although I personally wouldn't self-harm, I know what real (well as real as I have experienced) depression/heart ache is. 

Ultimately, I'm lucky to have a great set of family and friends so I'll be fine in the future I hope but if I didn't it would be much worse.

Seems like a lot of people I talk to now have self-harmed and/or experienced depression.

my nature is to help those people so some girl I was chatting to eventually opened up about other stuff first and latterly that. 

I tried my best to help, in doing so we became attached. We were going to meet up very soon and (it was quite weird considering we had not met but we have the internet now so we knew what each other looked like etc. I won't elaborate further but when her dad typed out her hand written letter to me last night he must have cringed at some parts she put regarding sex and stuff of that nature. 

She got diagnosed with cancer and died within 5/6 weeks. Anyway, it's a horrible scenario for her family and in her letter she was like if we had more time we'd have been a couple. It probably seems strange for people on the outside looking in but for me it's tough. I was attached to her, she went as far to say she loved me and her own father said that I was the only person she had when her family couldn't deal with her anymore. (I await his reply later today)

 

quite sad really. It leaves you with a lot of baggage. She died happier than she would have done, I know all that. However, I naively and perhaps arrogantly thought I could be her knight in shining armour while be totally unaffected emotionally once she died. Well, I think I always knew the second part of that was a lie and I would get hurt but I didn't think it would be so bad. I don't think I'd ever properly cried in my life but I most definitely have now. As well as the usual male traits of being angry etc.

 

i know this will pass, but for her family it must be so much worse. 

So when people experience true heartbreak and real tragedy, then I can understand how you would just want it all to end. 

 

 

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My experiences suggest that the British "men should just grin and bear it" attitude is a significant factor.

I don't appear to have medical depression but I am probably affected by a rarer thing known as "existential depression", which is like an intense version of a mid-life crisis.  Judging by my traits and how I see the world, I am certainly highly sensitive and probably gifted.  Being "gifted" does not make you "better" than the average person, it makes you different, in both good and bad ways.  It makes you unusually good at creative things but poor at simple repetitive tasks for example.  I feel that in the UK, it is actually a big burden because most of the associated traits are not tolerated or valued by mainstream society. 

I do not expect to be understood because I expect my differences to be tarnished by association with a minority who fake them in order to manipulate others, and to be powerless against it because of our cultural acceptance that "the minority have to spoil it for everybody else".  For example, traits such as advanced empathy and tendency towards deep emotional bonding in friendships are, in my experience, heavily sexualised if you are a British man, and tarnished by association with abusers who use emotional bonding to lower victims' defences, as per "child grooming".  Hiding your true nature from view on a regular basis, however, tends to lead to self-loathing in the long run.

I find that there is a big cultural taboo against men expressing feelings of self-loathing, because they get tarnished by association with manipulative attention-seeking brats who fake self-loathing to manipulate others so that they get their own way.  That means a man must bottle up these feelings.  I imagine that many men would rather commit suicide when their feelings get too much for them, rather than risk having an emotional meltdown (which is highly taboo for British men).  Nobody can be sure, but my guess is that this "feelings being socially unacceptable and getting too much" issue may have caused Gary Speed's tragic death.

My experiences are also consistent with the observation that many of the men who commit suicide are those who have a lot of potential for success.  British society is still heavily based around the "you get an education, you get a job, you get married, you have 2.4 children and then you die" philosophy, and if you deviate, you can end up marginalised.  Because emotional bonding in men's friendships is heavily sexualised, most men in the UK end up emotionally dependent on their wives and their friendships tend to be the disposable "drinking pal" type, and if you're a single man, be prepared for emotional isolation.  I had one terrible experience of being separated from a friend who was like a sister and suffering years of disenfranchised grief (i.e. where your grief is socially unacceptable).  That type of grief can also arise after divorces and is also a known risk factor behind suicide.

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Not sure what you mean by British men TWS?..I think its a more anglo- American trait than being British..when I lived in Alberta they were way behind the UK in terms of understanding and tolerance..being a 'retard' is common phrase and having emotions as a man is seen as being weak and somehow 'gay'...men don't suffer depression or stress in their world.

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I'm saying British because I have grown up in this part of the world and these issues did largely originate from Victorian Britain.  However, I am aware that the British Victorian values spread across the Atlantic and are strongly evident in many parts of North America, and probably other parts of the world as well- possibly more severely so in some areas than in Britain itself.

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2 hours ago, Thundery wintry showers said:

I'm saying British because I have grown up in this part of the world and these issues did largely originate from Victorian Britain.  However, I am aware that the British Victorian values spread across the Atlantic and are strongly evident in many parts of North America, and probably other parts of the world as well- possibly more severely so in some areas than in Britain itself.

If the development of racist views is anything to go by (which intensified in the 1830s onwards, aided by Darwin - unintentionally I must stress - in 1859) then I would agree. The 'motherland' was far more liberal and less racist than the colonies and former colonies at that time. 

So maybe it's the same re gender stereotypes and attitudes to mental health. 

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I think there is even stigma amongst medical professionals. When I was in hospital for my op the staff were asking me what I did and one of the nurses pulled a face of disgust saying she couldn't do that job because she can't deal with mad people. The look as if they were something to be scared of or disgusted by. That surprised me, they are just people, after all.

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1 hour ago, Lauren said:

I think there is even stigma amongst medical professionals. When I was in hospital for my op the staff were asking me what I did and one of the nurses pulled a face of disgust saying she couldn't do that job because she can't deal with mad people. The look as if they were something to be scared of or disgusted by. That surprised me, they are just people, after all.

That's really sad and quite disturbing that a nurse came out with that.

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14 minutes ago, Nick L said:

That's really sad and quite disturbing that a nurse came out with that.

To be fair a lot of the nursing staff are really compassionate towards those who turn up at A&E with serious self harm, suicide attempts and feeling like they are unable to keep themselves safe. But I kid you not, it wasn't long ago the ward would ring us up and say something like 'We've got another time waster/attention seeker for you to come and assess'. Luckily that's a rarity these days, but there used to be very little compassion for MH patients within a general hospital. They used to get stuck on what was referred to as the 'time wasters' ward which typically held your drunks, high druggies and people who had shown up for things like a broken nail.

 

A lot has changed recently so that's a positive.

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34 minutes ago, Lauren said:

To be fair a lot of the nursing staff are really compassionate towards those who turn up at A&E with serious self harm, suicide attempts and feeling like they are unable to keep themselves safe. But I kid you not, it wasn't long ago the ward would ring us up and say something like 'We've got another time waster/attention seeker for you to come and assess'. Luckily that's a rarity these days, but there used to be very little compassion for MH patients within a general hospital. They used to get stuck on what was referred to as the 'time wasters' ward which typically held your drunks, high druggies and people who had shown up for things like a broken nail.

 

A lot has changed recently so that's a positive.

At least things have changed. I think a lot of progress has been made in recent years. Although then again my eyes have been opened to mental health issues through personal experience. In a way I think they are far worse than physical health problems as they are far more difficult to explain and talk about.

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31 minutes ago, Nick L said:

At least things have changed. I think a lot of progress has been made in recent years. Although then again my eyes have been opened to mental health issues through personal experience. In a way I think they are far worse than physical health problems as they are far more difficult to explain and talk about.

I think it is a 'contemporary' issue. By that I mean something that only our generation will properly address I think. Of course it occurred before but I think was brushed under the carpet.

Tbh, as I said before, my views were different before but when two people who you are/were really close to have self-harmed then I think your perspective changes. A bit like homosexuality, an ambivalent/mildly against, skeptical viewpoint changes once you are good friends with someone who comes out. 

Same with people of a different skin colour, a good friend of mine is from Kenya... I was in a relationship of some description with a mixed race Muslim so it shows how your views can change.

i think as a country is an issue with will slowly be talked about more. There is nothing wrong with being skeptical or wary about people who self-harm if you haven't really thought about it or been exposed to it. Same with the other issues... But once people are educated and it is talked about more I think we will (as a society) be in a much better place. Britain does have it's flaws but it is a liberal nation and I do think we can lead the way (or be a the forefront with others) in terms of liberalising our views and being accepting.

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The notion that mental health issues are largely a women's issue still remains, I think, and with devastating consequences such as the high suicide rate in young men.

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49 minutes ago, NorthernRab said:

The notion that mental health issues are largely a women's issue still remains, I think, and with devastating consequences such as the high suicide rate in young men.

Agreed.

i think there are a few factors at play here but I'd argue that men now care about their appearance far more. How they are percieved etc. 

For example steroid use was up 645% between 2010 and 2013. Men must be feeling the pressure and don't know how to cope.... You can't publicly open up, you can't cry (show 'weakeness') so you either self-harm (a minority), turn to drink (or drugs) and/or become an angry person, turn to performance enhancing drugs in search of an immediate confidence boost or you even take your own life if it becomes that bad.

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It's becoming accepted that 'stress' (the HR umbrella term for all mental health issues) is a major drain on the economy.

The number of working days lost each year is significant enough to warrant a change in attitudes and treatments.

 

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Male body dysmorphia is now about even with recorded cases of it in females. It's estimated that roughly the same number of men have MH issues as women, but the ratio of women:men in MH services is about 10:1

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3 hours ago, Dougal said:

It's becoming accepted that 'stress' (the HR umbrella term for all mental health issues) is a major drain on the economy.

The number of working days lost each year is significant enough to warrant a change in attitudes and treatments.

 

True although I think some people off with 'stress' when they could go to work. I think that one is open to abuse (so is self-harming, certainly 'depression' is. A lot of people say they have 'depression' when they really don't) as it's an easy cop out of facing something. 

Not sure how you tackle that one tbh

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37 minutes ago, Lauren said:

Male body dysmorphia is now about even with recorded cases of it in females. It's estimated that roughly the same number of men have MH issues as women, but the ratio of women:men in MH services is about 10:1

Good post once again...

 

hard to define what counts as 'body dysmorphia' I think. I mean a lot of those people who go to the gym are searching for a very high goal and will be very harsh on how they look. Myself included. 

However, I have looked into steroids a lot. They aren't the demons tey are portrayed to be... The reason I have looked into them and who takes them ie if you have an FFMI of over 25 you ain't natural bro is because I want to know what I can realistically achieve given my natural genetic cap. 

Tbh, I think you can achieve a pretty great body naturally. Either pretty massive with a little bit of fat (at around 200lbs) or ripped and 13 stone for me (5'10) so pretty big (or somewhere in between). However you can't look like these 15,16,17 stone monsters who are shredded and stand at 6'0. Just impossible.

it is this that makes the dystopia worse I think. Men see Zeus standing on a magazine and try and get it. 

Well you can get pretty close, you can look amazing (it will take ages though, diet, dedication, great training and crucially >5 years to hit close to genetic potential - many young men want it now, hence steroids. While looking inferior at natural men who have been training for much longer) 

but you cannot achieve an 8 pack and weigh 16 stone with 20" biceps. Just impossible.

if there was more education I think it would help....

 

still, I don't think there is anything wrong with consistently training multiple times a week. The documentary on BBC with Reggie Yates called it 'obsession'.... Well maybe, but I think it's a positive one. One things for certain... It's here to stay. The gym culture and quest for an amazing body will only grow I feel due to social media. Men are now experiencing what women have been for a few decades. It won't go away.

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Did you really not think the guy who wrapped himself in clingfilm was unwell? The guy who pushed his body so hard he had had several brain hemorrhages and his scalp bled from the blood pressure? When you look in the mirror and do not see what everyone else sees and you start damaging yourself to achieve a goal you know you're never going to is when it gets into dangerous territory. That's when it changes from positive to a negative obsession. When something goes from you controlling it to it controlling you, then you've got problems.

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47 minutes ago, Lauren said:

Did you really not think the guy who wrapped himself in clingfilm was unwell? The guy who pushed his body so hard he had had several brain hemorrhages and his scalp bled from the blood pressure? When you look in the mirror and do not see what everyone else sees and you start damaging yourself to achieve a goal you know you're never going to is when it gets into dangerous territory. That's when it changes from positive to a negative obsession. When something goes from you controlling it to it controlling you, then you've got problems.

Yeah, he did have body dysmorphia to an extent but I didn't like how it was portrayed that everyone who hits the gym more than occasionally (him hitting the gym every day is just a training style, hitting the gym 4 times is just as effective. This isn't the weight lifting section so I won't expand).

he was a complete idiot.

his body was very mediocre, I will have better than that after 3 years training without steroids, easily. 

He didn't count calories (so how could be lose weight and get better definition on his abs?) personally he needed to bulk and then cut, he simply was too small to have really good abs.

lifting 7kg DBs hahahaha

so my point is:

his training was rubbish

his diet = rubbish

he is nowhere near the point where you 'should' (if you ever should) take steroids. 

He was a complete moron who DID have issues mentally and was obsessed. I don't want to be tarred with that same brush by Joe blogs just cos he is so extreme.

 

guy bleeding from his head has used so much gear it's a joke. I'm surprised he's still alive (I'd heard of him before. Once apron a time he was quite built and had a good physique - far too big for my taste but still - howeve he is now 5 stone of fat away from being a any kind of condition. He's a mess. 

And yes, he should get that checked out. That can't be healthy, he must have heart problems... NO WONDER with the level of gear he's pumped into himself over many years.

 

I agree completely with your last paragraph. Hence why I know a fair bit about steroids etc, I want to stop myself dreaming of something I can't attain. Will attach what I want but know I can't attain haha. Such is life... I'm happy with what I have but I do want more and I know I can get far more.

edit: that's what an 8 pack, while being 15/16 stone at 6'0 looks like. A beast of a man who was natural until 2012 but came back in 2014 looking like THAT. If only that were possible without running the risk of killing yourself. Sighs. Many young men are chasing bodies like his (well maybe a bit worse) and it simply is not possible without elite genetics and steroids (perfect training and diet aside), you can't get close. 75% of that is the limit is say, I'll take try and achieve it.

i just didn't like the 'obsessed' mantra pushed by the programme. They should have interviewed some guys on gear who were normal, loads use and are just regular guys with years of training under their belts. The programme never tried to be balanced.

i mean the ending... What did you think of the ending?

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