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PerfectStorm

Calais Migrants

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I'm surprised there isn't a dedicated thread for this, so I'll start one. The french have criticised the UK for not doing anything about the immigrant problem at the port of Calais. Many of the migrants have threatened lorry drivers with weapons such as knives, machetes and sticks. It poses the question, what do we do? And what are your opinions? 

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I'm surprised there isn't a dedicated thread for this, so I'll start one. The french have criticised the UK for not doing anything about the immigrant problem at the port of Calais. Many of the migrants have threatened lorry drivers with weapons such as knives, machetes and sticks. It poses the question, what do we do? And what are your opinions? 

 

One thing I will never get with Calais immigrants is that they've already made it. They're already in a Western liberal developed country, why risk so much just to go into another one.

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Many of the migrants have threatened lorry drivers with weapons such as knives, machetes and sticks.

 

Have they? It's not what I heard on the radio today; desperate begging, pleading etc, but not threats.

 

I mean how could a threat actually work? The driver would just need to say 'Sure, jump aboard' then, when passing the cops / border police, tell them he's got some illegals in the back who threatened him. Game over - back to living in a tent in the forest and trying again.

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One thing I will never get with Calais immigrants is that they've already made it. They're already in a Western liberal developed country, why risk so much just to go into another one.

My understanding is that they are probably after our much more generous benefits system. Watching the migrant interviews on the news, many of them have said that the UK is a haven to them because of our housing system, benefits and good education. 

These aren't asylum seekers, where are their families? The majority of them are most certainly opportunists and I really feel sorry for the lorry drivers. 

Have they? It's not what I heard on the radio today; desperate begging, pleading etc, but not threats.

 

I mean how could a threat actually work? The driver would just need to say 'Sure, jump aboard' then, when passing the cops / border police, tell them he's got some illegals in the back who threatened him. Game over - back to living in a tent in the forest and trying again.

Just one of many stories covering it. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33254720

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Calais migrants......hmm, not exactly the sort of 'french imports' that I'm hoping for this summer if I'm honest

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One thing I will never get with Calais immigrants is that they've already made it. They're already in a Western liberal developed country, why risk so much just to go into another one.

 

Sure, I don't get this either. Germany is for example much more welcoming to people fleeing persecution than the UK; same with other EU countries.

 

UK has one of the lowest levels of immigrants per capita in Europe as a result.

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Calais migrants......hmm, not exactly the sort of 'french imports' that I'm hoping for this summer if I'm honest

But very likely to cause a storm? :D

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I'm surprised there isn't a dedicated thread for this, so I'll start one. The french have criticised the UK for not doing anything about the immigrant problem at the port of Calais. Many of the migrants have threatened lorry drivers with weapons such as knives, machetes and sticks. It poses the question, what do we do? And what are your opinions? 

Surely the responsibility lies mainly with the French? Calais ceased being part of England a long time ago...

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Surely the responsibility lies mainly with the French? Calais ceased being part of England a long time ago...

Well that's the stupidity of it all isn't it? The French can't deal with their own problems. How on Earth have they been able to travel through the entirety of Europe without being stopped? 

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Well that's the stupidity of it all isn't it? The French can't deal with their own problems. How on Earth have they been able to travel through the entirety of Europe without being stopped? 

The only answer I can think of, is that they have been given an easy passage...

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Surely the responsibility lies mainly with the French? Calais ceased being part of England a long time ago...

 

That's arguably not true. France is part of Schengen so has open borders, Britain has opted out so does not. So, you could argue strongly that Britain should be responsible for preventing entry rather than France for preventing exit.

 

Would the UK government desperately try to stop migrants from Africa trying to jump on lorries at Dover heading to Calais?

 

A shared problem is what it should be. It's not the fault of some EU countries that they happen to border non-EU ones or points of illegal entry by boat. All should take an equal share in terms of responsibility in deal with the problem.

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Just one of many stories covering it. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33254720

 

I only read a couple of people saying they were threatened which doesn't prove anything really, certainly not that violence is a big problem.

 

As I said, there is no logic to threatening lorry drivers as that will just ensure you don't get to the UK; the driver just needs to open the window as he passes border control and tell them he has illegals in the back.

 

This is why violence associated with the problem is very low I understand. The migrants know it won't help. Their only hope is to sneak on board undetected and get off at the other side likewise.

 

There was an excellent summary of the situation on BBC Scotland by an expert from Oxford uni discussing this today. He also pointed out what I said earlier; the numbers coming to the UK are very low Europe-wise because the UK isn't very welcoming.

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I only read a couple of people saying they were threatened which doesn't prove anything really. 

 

As I said, there is no logic to threatening lorry drivers as that will just ensure you don't get to the UK; the driver just needs to open the window as he passes border control and tell them he has illegals in the back.

 

This is why violence associated with the problem is very low I understand. The migrants know it won't help. Their only hope is to sneak on board undetected and get off at the other side likewise.

 

There was an excellent summary of the situation on BBC Scotland by an expert from Oxford uni discussing this today. He also pointed out what I said earlier; the numbers coming to the UK are very low Europe-wise because the UK isn't very welcoming.

Still a problem for trade links between France and England. 

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Still a problem for trade links between France and England. 

Why not simply have two people in each lorry; a driver and his mate? That's how things used to be done.

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Still a problem for trade links between France and England. 

 

Undoubtedly; very awkward for the lorry drivers on a personal level too. There was an interview with some and they said they felt so much under pressure. They have migrants down on their knees literally begging them to help (after all, the migrants are often starving and cold, living in a forest, having spent every last penny on a terrible, long journey away from violent persecution), but if they did that, even unknowingly by not actually making sure 'sufficiently' nobody had sneaked on board, they can be punished by the UK and lose their jobs / be fined. 

 

The fact that lorry drivers can get in trouble for unknown illegals is ludicrous. It's like saying if someone breaks into my home and steals my telly, I can be fined for it.

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?..welcoming to people fleeing persecution...

You are quite a gullible person but hey we could let them all in and settle them in Lauder?

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You are quite a gullible person but hey we could let them all in and settle them in Lauder?

 

Whatever.

 

---

 

Scotland recently has had the highest level of immigrants per head of population of any UK home nation.

 

Plenty of room in these parts. But better to try and make them not need to desperately flee their original home right?

 

No matter how high you build the wall, if they are desperate, they will get over it. They are people after all; seemingly with more determination than many from these islands. How many of us would travel thousands of miles with nothing, be robbed, beaten, defrauded, arrested..live in a makeshift tent in a forest..just to get a basic job with a roof over your head and not, hopefully, have to worry about starving, being bombed, shot at etc...

 

A lot of us probably. They are just like us after all.

 

---

 

I would like immigration policy to be devolved to Scotland; one size does not fit all.

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Well that's the thing isn't it, there are a lot of people who say that these people deserve a chance in this country but would certainly not have them living on their doorstep. 

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Whatever.

---

Scotland recently has had the highest level of immigrants per head of population of any UK home nation.

Plenty of room in these parts. But better to try and make them not need to desperately flee their original home right?

No matter how high you build the wall, if they are desperate, they will get over it. They are people after all; seemingly with more determination than many from these islands. How many of us would travel thousands of miles with nothing, be robbed, beaten, defrauded, arrested..live in a makeshift tent in a forest..just to get a basic job with a roof over your head and not, hopefully, have to worry about starving, being bombed, shot at etc...

A lot of us probably. They are just like us after all.

---

I would like immigration policy to be devolved to Scotland; one size does not fit all.

I agree with the sentiments of your post but are you saying you'd just allow all of them in? You seem to be saying we need to make room for them... We (as a country, note we're both miles away from Kent) are over-populated. You can't allow yet more people into an already crowded place.

We don't have enough homes for our own, yes "build more homes" but we at least need a chance to build more homes. We need to SUPPLY more homes but I feel we should limit/reduce DEMAND where we can.

Yeah, immigration policy could be different since we don't suffer from this unfortunate problem thankfully.

Many of these people are unskilled and speak little English so how well would they find work? I'd be happier if they could at least speak English or had skills of some description.

There needs to be fines for lorry drivers so that they rigourously secure their lorry and frequently check it.

You seem to take a very 'human' approach to a lot of these problems and I do sympathise and partly agree with you but on the other hand, it's a bit naive IMO as to the knock on effects of such policy.

To expand on your point "better to make them not need to flee their country".

Very true. However, many of the left and general public wanted Libyan, Egyptian and Syrian dictators taken down. These tin pot dictators are usually there for a reason. Strong religious division is usually cause number one...

How do you propose you fix that?

I think we can back the democratic or least worse option but that's surely it.

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That's arguably not true. France is part of Schengen so has open borders, Britain has opted out so does not. So, you could argue strongly that Britain should be responsible for preventing entry rather than France for preventing exit.

 

 

So why should Britain be to blame for the idiotic idea of having no boarders that as you just admitted helps people smugglers and encourages them after all by own admission that is the issue in hand...

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Undoubtedly; very awkward for the lorry drivers on a personal level too. There was an interview with some and they said they felt so much under pressure. They have migrants down on their knees literally begging them to help (after all, the migrants are often starving and cold, living in a forest, having spent every last penny on a terrible, long journey away from violent persecution), but if they did that, even unknowingly by not actually making sure 'sufficiently' nobody had sneaked on board, they can be punished by the UK and lose their jobs / be fined. 

 

The fact that lorry drivers can get in trouble for unknown illegals is ludicrous. It's like saying if someone breaks into my home and steals my telly, I can be fined for it.

That's the part that annoys me the most, the drivers getting fined for something that is not their fault. They look, but some of the hidden can be missed. It's very unlikely any drivers are bringing migrants in knowingly. 

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Send them back. 

 

It's unfortunate that their countries are hell holes but the UK is not the worlds council house and frankly i don't want unskilled, uneducated immigrates from crime ridden countries coming here. 

 

Yes to the developed world, Nay to the third world. 

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This evening I was talking to on of our club members who has just been out to Bucharest with the intention of helping to build up a charity to help the 'street kids'.

 

Apparently one of the conditions for Romania joining the EU they had to get rid of the orphanages which I think we all saw those on the TV - they did and turned the kids out onto the street.

 

That way they grow up unable to get an education, unable to get proper medical treatment - many are HIV positive and unable to get a meaningful job, so this ends up as lives getting wasted.

 

Romania is not alone in this - there are plenty of places around the world where the 'street kids' grow up feral and there is little doubt that some of these will make their way, eventually to Calais to become one of the desperate and frustrated people trying to board lorries about to cross the channel.

 

This is not just a UK problem, it is not just and EU problem but a global problem where around the world there are millions of displaced people trying desperately to get a better life and we can't really blame them for trying. Often they are the innocent victims of circumstances, tyrants and other questionable people. 

 

In the first place this situation needs to be tackled on a global basis at source in an effort to improve the conditions of their homelands - it is far easier said than done especially with some of the regimes and politics involved but the world could at least try harder and make a start rather than line the pockets of so many fat cats.

 

Then as far as these people are concerned once they have reached the EU, it is not just a UK problem but one affecting the whole of Europe and as such there should be co-ordinated action to deter these people entering the EU in the first place by physical means such as border and sea patrols, by not being quite as generous as we are though still bearing in mind there is a humanitarian duty, by seeking out the people traffickers and bringing them to justice plus sequestrating their ill gotten gains, by meaningful and supervised investment in their home countries to encourage the work prospects of the people and by investment in recovering 'waste lands' to make them productive again.

 

To do all this will take a lot of effort, funds, determination and organisation but a journey of 100 miles always begins with the first step.  

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The issue is with Policing is Frances sole responsibility and not ours and it's just a case of them trying to pass the buck. It's a bit like us expecting them to police a riot on our side of the tunnel they'd have none of it.

A good interview with a lorry driver showing how violent these people can be and I take my hat of for these guys still doing the job despite watching the Police run away.

Interestingly Germany takes the most immigrants and we come second according to the figures (none wiki) although there's a huge difference in numbers. These are 2012 figures so could well be out of date by now. France could do a lot more considering there are a much larger country and therefore less pressure on natural resources.

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As I understood it, the UK border is in Calais, i.e. Part of Calais is technically the UK for the purposes of immigration control. Here it is:

 

queues-of-vehicles-at-the-uk-border-cont

 

This was agreed as part of the deal to close the Sangatte refugee camp back in 2004.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11011295/Move-border-checks-back-to-Britain-say-French-politicians-amid-new-Calais-migrants-crisis.html

 

So, French police are currently patrolling a UK border to try and prevent people crossing.

 

Of course the border could be moved back to the UK, which would take responsibility for policing away from the French pretty much entirely, arguably, as the border would not be on French territory any more.

 

Really has to be a joint effort, and part of a Europe-wide initiative.

 

EDIT

 

It must be remembered that while we are dealing with one immigrant stream, France is dealing with two. It has immigrants trying to enter and live in France, but also immigrants just wanting to pass through France to get to Britain. We can't really wash our hands of it all due to luck of geography. I imagine if Britain was in the middle of the med, some folks currently saying it's all France's responsibility would be screaming for other EU countries to do more to help.

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