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UK Politics May 2015 Onward

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18 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

Like the one in which 37% of the electorate (never mind those who were so conveniently excluded) voted to leave the EU?

OK if you want to use exclusions as an angle then I prefer to think of it as an English thing. I don't count Scotland [ your preferred homeland]  because of their own agenda and also to some extent NI.

London is a foreign country so lets discount them.  So real patriotic English men and woman voted by a large majority to leave.

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33 minutes ago, kent said:

Why don't we have a referendum on it.

If you don't like the result then quite simply we can have another one.

We, on our side never asked for this referendum anyway Kent - it was called by Cameron simply as an ill judged manoeuvre to try and placate your lot - it was advisory but it ended up as a good proportion of the electorate getting hoodwinked by leave lies and leave urban myth.

But now you come to mention it, it is now our turn and we will have another one, stricter controlled so the leave will not be able to get away with the same lies. 

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19 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

Except of course in 1980s Soviet Russia (not to mention Maoist China) the Conservatives were those who stood against change...IMO, it's the standing against change that defines a 'Conservative' - it disnae matter if that change is to the left or the right?

It's full title is the Conservative and Unionist Party, so it looks like that in one foul swoop David Cameron and Theresa May re on the way towards destroying the whole raison d'etre of that party. 

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2 minutes ago, mike Meehan said:

We, on our side never asked for this referendum anyway Kent - it was called by Cameron simply as an ill judged manoeuvre to try and placate your lot - it was advisory but it ended up as a good proportion of the electorate getting hoodwinked by leave lies and leave urban myth.

But now you come to mention it, it is now our turn and we will have another one, stricter controlled so the leave will not be able to get away with the same lies. 

What part of democracy can you not fail to grasp. That horse has bolted.

Do you really believe after a democratic vote any government would discard that vote and suggest another.  It would be political suicide, they know that and I know that ,but it seems remainers are living in a fools paradise. 

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Donald Trumps new Ambassador to Germany has said,  " I want to empower the like minded right wing in Europe.

He said I absolutely want to empower other Conservatives and leaders throughout Europe. There is a groundswell of Conservatives policies that are now taking hold because of the failure of the left"

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10 minutes ago, kent said:

What part of democracy can you not fail to grasp. That horse has bolted.

Do you really believe after a democratic vote any government would discard that vote and suggest another.  It would be political suicide, they know that and I know that ,but it seems remainers are living in a fools paradise. 

I could ask you exactly the same question Kent - so far from your posts I have gathered that you have some sort of totalitarian type of democracy which only applies to your side. 

1)    A result obtained by misleading the public is not democracy, it is manipulation. For people to make a decision in such a referendum the issues must be explained clearly and honestly to give them a fair chance to make up their minds. 

2) Our system is a parliamentary democracy - that means our elected representatives sitting in parliament in order to debate, examine and finally make a decision on proposals for law. It seem that Mrs May thought that she had an executive power to by pass parliament and make decisions on her own account. Sadly for her the supreme court ruled against her. But not to be outdone, she turned to manipulating parliament by various means, including whips, bullying and various other means of coercion. She wasn't happy with the majority she had and wanted to increase that majority to make certain of her policies being passed, so she called for the General Election of 2017 - not a good move on her part, she lost her overall majority but not to be beaten she entered into an unholy alliance with the DUP, using our taxpayers money to the tune of a £billion, without any authorisation or say from the British public. Strangely enough, living at Watford I did not vote for any DUP members.

3) On the 12th of this month the withdrawal bill is coming before parliament with 15 amendments put forward by the lords which should be discussed, debated and finally voted on. The Lords discussed this for quite some time, I think 15 days but Mrs May has decided that the whole lot, including the voting should be completed in just one day - is that democracy in action or is it just plain straightforward steamrollering?

https://www.channel4.com/news/mps-given-a-day-to-consider-brexit-amendments

4) The leavers try every way and which ever way they can to stifle the voice of the remainers, they refer to them in derogatory terms, they call them traitors, they don't even take any views the remainers have seriously - of course according to Mrs May we are citizens of nowhere which intimates that as far as she is concerned we have not rights. 

To me it looks like the leaver have not grasped what democracy is - they think it is one sided but it isn't. 

You talk about the government committing political suicide, they started the process of that when Mrs May stood outside the door of number 10, saying brexit means brexit on what was enacted as an advisory poll, which ended up with a narrow majority - you know something for parliament to examine, discuss, debate and finally come out with a decision 'Will we or won't we?'.

Our compatriots in Europe were fully expecting us to go back to them to say, 'Look this is the result of the referendum, is there any more you can give us to satisfy the British public?' That would have been the sensible action but no she did not do that, instead her eyes started to roll with signs of 17.2 million potential votes for her and the tory party, not what was best for the country but for their own political preservation.

No account was taken of the many in the deprived areas using the referendum to give the government a kick in the teeth and voted leave fully expecting remain to win. Now they realise the mistake and would love the opportunity to put that right, especially when countless millions in money and resources which could have been used for the regeneration of their areas, with a bit more come from the EU to make their lives better but instead they are likely to deteriorate further since Mrs May says money does not grow on trees, yet she throws it about with gay abandon to try and curry favour with what she still believes, surprisingly, with the brexit populace movement.

Now what was that question about democracy again, ah yes a bent referendum where 37% of the electorate voted to leave the EU, which means that 63% did not vote for that. But of course that is the democracy according to the leavers which bears little relationship to real life and real democracy.

For goodness sake Kent, take off your blinkers, stand back and look at the situation in its whole perspective as it is without falling back on urban myth and other fairly stories.  

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It' never ending  and to start it' breaking news so no motive known however a woman and YOUNG BABY found stabbed in London   the mind boggles 

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42 minutes ago, kent said:

Donald Trumps new Ambassador to Germany has said,  " I want to empower the like minded right wing in Europe.

He said I absolutely want to empower other Conservatives and leaders throughout Europe. There is a groundswell of Conservatives policies that are now taking hold because of the failure of the left"

That figures doesn't it - wasn't it 'like minded right wings in Europe' which seeded nationalism leading to two world wars?

I expect Donald and his corporations will make a bomb out of suppling the different factions of the new European right wing with armaments - he has already shown he is in full favour of this through his support of the NRA.

I'm afraid that that type of attitude will be shown to be short lived as the people start to realise the real motives.   

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Just to add to my post  police have confirmed  women and 1 year old stabbed in London  hanslow borough  women stable baby critical   attacker still on the loose 

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4 minutes ago, weirpig said:

Just to add to my post  police have confirmed  women and 1 year old stabbed in London  hanslow borough  women stable baby critical   attacker still on the loose 

Yes sadly the little boy is in a serious condition. The police have said the people concerned were known to each other so hopefully it wont be long before this piece of scum is arrested.

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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/young-may-head-for-exit-after-brexit-gssv3fmsk?shareToken=e64927e9a95a7e9625f0ac3cdc9c2508

Nothing ever really happens in isolation and invariably one thing introduced will have a side effect somewhere else.

This would appear to be an unintended consequence of Brexit - it adds weight to the adage of , 'Be careful what you wish for'. 

We will have to wait and see what happens of course but there is a likelihood that a number of our talented young will go off to seek their fortunes elsewhere and who can blame them.

 

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47 minutes ago, kent said:

Yes sadly the little boy is in a serious condition. The police have said the people concerned were known to each other so hopefully it wont be long before this piece of scum is arrested.

I'll wait until further news is in about this but any such attacks are terrible but if they are known to each other it makes me wonder if this is a domestic matter which would likely rule out terrorism but it is all too early to say. 

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5 hours ago, kent said:

Yes sadly the little boy is in a serious condition. The police have said the people concerned were known to each other so hopefully it wont be long before this piece of scum is arrested.

One can just hope that 45 kilo  police dog makes the arrest and left alone for a bit to teach that vermin a lesson.

Edited by markyo

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9 hours ago, kent said:

Donald Trumps new Ambassador to Germany has said,  " I want to empower the like minded right wing in Europe.

He said I absolutely want to empower other Conservatives and leaders throughout Europe. There is a groundswell of Conservatives policies that are now taking hold because of the failure of the left"

Good Morning Kent

What truly wonderful news.

People like certain posters on here will be fully empowered to promote their hate-filled rhetoric. Having said that the hard left are no better. 

What is wrong with a centrist approach where common interests, desires and ambitions unite people rather than extreme stirrings from both ends of the political spectrum.

Come clean Kent are you really as extreme as you make out or do you write in the way you do to provoke a reaction?  If you are representative of a sizeable percentage of the populous I seriously worry about the future of this country.

In another posting you give your views on democracy, which in part I agree with. It is, however, diminishing under the current government. Late yesterday afternoon i watched the Parliament Channel and the Secretary of State for Transport giving a statement on the current debacle on the railways. He is the chap at the top of the tree as far as Network Rail is concerned and it is he who is in charge of the Department of Transport. Also he is responsible for the managing of the various Rail franchises . Not once when pressed to do so did he admit responsibility for anything and passed the buck onto Network Rail, the rail companies and the experts that he appointed to oversee the implementation of the new timetables.

In the past ministers have resigned under the doctrine of ministerial responsibility for issues far less than the current crisis but it does not happen under this Government. The PM is so weak she is unable to sack him and so we continue to see a totally ineffective Secretary of State insitu and we just have to put up with it.. That is democracy at work at its finest.

Kind Regards

Dave

Edited by claret047

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1 hour ago, claret047 said:

Come clean Kent are you really as extreme as you make out or do you write in the way you do to provoke a reaction?  If you are representative of a sizeable percentage of the populous I seriously worry about the future of this country.

I instinctively knew as soon as I posted that article about Grenell promoting right wing policies in the EU, or come to that anything I post regardless of its content would be a magnet for you.  

The man is right in his views as far as I am concerned, the policies of the left have failed miserably in the EU and the future of this country is already screwed because of past policies of the left.

I do know that you are very limited in choice as to who you single out for your accusations as quite often leavers are totally outnumbered in their posts.

Regarding so called hate filled rhetoric when remainers post things like " this is why I am reminded why I detest you" followed by name calling and then being applauded with likes just because of his opinions, followed by silence from the rest then don't expect a silence from the opposition.

I will continue to post any article I find to be critical of the EU as I also have to read about all the preposterous doom awaiting this country and its all the fault of us bluddy brexiteers for being too thick to realise the harm we are doing. Unless of course all the moral high ground you occupy crumbles beneath you.

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2 minutes ago, kent said:

I instinctively knew as soon as I posted that article about Grenell promoting right wing policies in the EU, or come to that anything I post regardless of its content would be a magnet for you.  

The man is right in his views as far as I am concerned, the policies of the left have failed miserably in the EU and the future of this country is already screwed because of past policies of the left.

I do know that you are very limited in choice as to who you single out for your accusations as quite often leavers are totally outnumbered in their posts.

Regarding so called hate filled rhetoric when remainers post things like " this is why I am reminded why I detest you" followed by name calling and then being applauded with likes just because of his opinions, followed by silence from the rest then don't expect a silence from the opposition.

I will continue to post any article I find to be critical of the EU as I also have to read about all the preposterous doom awaiting this country and its all the fault of us bluddy brexiteers for being too thick to realise the harm we are doing. Unless of course all the moral high ground you occupy crumbles beneath you.

That all sounds nice and far-right, kent, but what 'policies of the left' have failed us all so miserably; we've had right-wing governments ever since the 1970s...? Are you trying to tell us that Thatcher, Major, Blair, Cameron and May are all really closet commies? Was Genghis Khan a commie too!:wallbash:

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1 hour ago, claret047 said:

In the past ministers have resigned under the doctrine of ministerial responsibility for issues far less than the current crisis but it does not happen under this Government. The PM is so weak she is unable to sack him and so we continue to see a totally ineffective Secretary of State insitu and we just have to put up with it.. That is democracy at work at its finest.

It's what is called vicarious liability Dave - As the person in charge, you are expected to take responsibility for your department, or in other words 'the buck stops here', a notice which President Truman had on his desk.

It is not a defence to plead that you did not know, or that you did know of whatever wrongdoing it was but it was the fault of some underling because as the person in charge, you are expected to know and/or ensure that the staff for whom you are responsible are properly trained and briefed.

Many used to accept this without question and if a serious matter arose, they did the honourable thing and fell on their sword.

Nowadays it appears to be anything but - the fashion appears to be having a ready made supply of scapegoats - Theresa appears to be a master of this - when she made a wrong decision as a result of what her advisers told her, she sacked them. She did not consider that they were there as advisors and that the final decision was hers, no, it was their fault. 

Obviously others see this, so it is little wonder that they use this same tactic of mismanagement, so as a result we end up with idiots hanging on to their ministerial posts when they should have been sacked ages ago. 

Perhaps the theory of debtor/creditor relationship may also come into play - if the debt of the debtor is sufficiently large then that gives the debtor control over the creditor.  

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Good morning.

Very quiet on here today.

As there is not too much going on I have decided to go into reflective mode and share with you my thought with regards to a book I am currently reading.

it is entitled the Wanderer and is written by Susan Gardiner  and tells the life of Frank Soo.

Who you may ask is Frank Soo. Well he was the first and only Footballer to play for England (9 times)from a Chinese background. At the time he played alongside Sir Stanley Matthews fr the National Team and some thought he was at least on a par to that great footballer but he seems to be erased from football memory. As well as captaining the RAF Team during the Second World War he also played for Stoke City (sorry @kent 😅) , Everton,Newcastle United, Brentford and Millwall. After the end of hostilities he went on to play for Leicester City and Luton Town. Following a stint at Luton he then went on to play for my local team, Chelmsford City, where i am the Safety Officer and a matchday steward. Being a keen City supporter is why I read the book. At the time he played for us (before I followed the mighty Clarets we boasted one of the top teams in non league football. We even owned over 20 houses for players to live in.

So far I have only read up to page 11 and up until now I have seen his parents background in the northwest of England and the open hostility there to  the Chinese immigrants. One particular piece caught my eye which I repeat below an extract thereof.

"Another possible reason fir the family to have moved away from the Manchester was because of the increased animosity towards Chinese immigrants during this period..The hostility was greatest in the north west of England, where many Chinese seamen had settled. In Liverpool  the resentment had reached such a point that it threatened to turn into serious social unrest............and Chinese labour became a major issue in that area in the 1906 General Election causing Socialist writer to comment "anyone who saw much of politics in the winter of 1905/6 must have noticed the pictures of Chinamen  on the hoardings aroused among many of  the voters an immediate hatred of the Mongolian racial type" " (Does that remind anyone of the posters displayed during the Referendum.? Funny how history repeats itself)

"Just as they are now, in the 21st century, politicians back then were unscrupulous in their use of immigrant workers as scapegoats-  and there is an uncanny similarity in the attitudes that left Chinese workers trapped in a double bind of prejudice to those faced by immigrants today. If they worked hard, they were  taking "local" peoples' jobs and undercutting wages. If they didn't have work they were lazy or even criminal."

The book goes on to describe the diatribe emanating  from the Liverpool Working Men's Conservatve Association  against the Chinese workers.

As well as reading books and articles on sport I like to read books on our country's history and what strikes me more than anything else is the tribal intolerance we have against anyone different to us. In more recent times it has been the Chinese then the Jews , followed by west Indians and the Irish and now it is anyone  from the Islamic faith.

Here endeth today's sermon.

Kind Regards

Dave

 

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36 minutes ago, kent said:

I instinctively knew as soon as I posted that article about Grenell promoting right wing policies in the EU, or come to that anything I post regardless of its content would be a magnet for you.  Yes instict is an important human attribute and one that tends to be lost in modern civilisations. I take it that you were not disappointed thst your instict proved correct

The man is right in his views as far as I am concerned, the policies of the left have failed miserably in the EU and the future of this country is already screwed because of past policies of the left. Yes everyone is entitled to their views no matter how unpalatable they my be. As Ed asked a rew moments ago what are the failures of the left? If comparing other European countries with our own we have had right leaning governence since the 1970's and we have not fared any better than them. In fact us and Europe had generally managed a lot better. The last crash for example started in one of the most right wing capitalist countries in the world. Was that a success? 

I do know that you are very limited in choice as to who you single out for your accusations as quite often leavers are totally outnumbered in their posts.That is true, but I wonder why that is the case. A genuine question. Why do you think that is? As the country on the vote fr leaving the EU was split roughly down the middle why do so many of us not so right wing in our views as you good self?

Regarding so called hate filled rhetoric when remainers post things like " this is why I am reminded why I detest you" followed by name calling and then being applauded with likes just because of his opinions, followed by silence from the rest then don't expect a silence from the opposition. I did not post a like or comment on Malcolm's post for the simple reason I thought it was OTT and not called for.

I will continue to post any article I find to be critical of the EU Please do as it would be very boring on here if we  all shared the same viewpoint. Difference of opinion is what keeps this thread going

as I also have to read about all the preposterous doom awaiting this country You do not have to, but I commend you for doing so in order to see how others feel about what is happening. Like me you are drawn (to use your phrase) like a magnet to this thread.

and its all the fault of us bluddy brexiteers for being too thick to realise the harm we are doing. I do not believe you are "thick", misguided in your views yes.

Unless of course all the moral high ground you occupy crumbles beneath you. You are confusing two issues. Leaving the EU has very little to do with morals unless one includes ratting on an agreement we signed up to in this. As far as right wing statements with racial intones then yes morals do come into it I am afraid. I hope that it does not crumble down on us as I would hate to see a more divided intolerant society.

 

Good Morning Kent.

Thanks for your reply.

I have in the time honoured way added my comments to your response above in bold italics against the relevant sentence.

You may also find my earlier email about Frank Soo of interest.

Kind Regards

Dave

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13 minutes ago, kent said:

I instinctively knew as soon as I posted that article about Grenell promoting right wing policies in the EU, or come to that anything I post regardless of its content would be a magnet for you.  

The man is right in his views as far as I am concerned, the policies of the left have failed miserably in the EU and the future of this country is already screwed because of past policies of the left.

I do know that you are very limited in choice as to who you single out for your accusations as quite often leavers are totally outnumbered in their posts.

Regarding so called hate filled rhetoric when remainers post things like " this is why I am reminded why I detest you" followed by name calling and then being applauded with likes just because of his opinions, followed by silence from the rest then don't expect a silence from the opposition.

I will continue to post any article I find to be critical of the EU as I also have to read about all the preposterous doom awaiting this country and its all the fault of us bluddy brexiteers for being too thick to realise the harm we are doing. Unless of course all the moral high ground you occupy crumbles beneath you.

Kent imagine a circle - at the top of the circle there are the middle of the road policies and ideals, then take both the left and the right path which goes towards the extremism of both left and right, then continue that circle round until they reach the bottom where they both meet again, showing that in effect there is little difference between them. 

In effect there was little difference between the authoritarianism of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin, they both had their secret police, Gestapo  and NKVD, respectively, they both had concentration camps and gulags, in both cases having views contrary to the official view were political offences which could be and were punishable by death. 

That is why we get very concerned by extreme right and left wing views. 

As somebody who has seen a lot of life, both from the seamy side and exemplary side but being a relatively ordinary bloke, I have developed into the middle of the road version.

That also involves having respect for and looking at both sides, discerning the truth of what they say (you wouldn't believe how many people tell porkies) and deciding my position accordingly, without fear or favour, honestly according to my personal principles, as has been my life's work.

Whether or not there is doom awaiting our country, I do not know because that is still in the future and I do not have a crystal ball - all I can say from straightforward common sense is that there is the path of brexit, where we have already seen some downturn and the path of the EU, which is more structured with democracy built in to its rules and regulations for the benefit of all.

The path of brexit appears to be, without any rules or plans laid out, to be the most risky of the two paths and in addition it deprives the people of the UK their EU citizenship and is also unsettling for the 5 million or so people who are EU nationals who have settled in the UK, or the Brits settled in the EU with very little regard being given to their plights by our government.

Invariably the people such as Trump and Farage are self opinionated people intent on stoking up the fires of discontent, even going to the extent of pouring petrol on the flames in order to bolster their own fragile egos and for the advancement of the self interest of themselves and their chums. The word 'altruism' does not exist in their dictionaries.  

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1 hour ago, kent said:

I instinctively knew as soon as I posted that article about Grenell promoting right wing policies in the EU, or come to that anything I post regardless of its content would be a magnet for you.  

The man is right in his views as far as I am concerned, the policies of the left have failed miserably in the EU and the future of this country is already screwed because of past policies of the left.

I do know that you are very limited in choice as to who you single out for your accusations as quite often leavers are totally outnumbered in their posts.

Regarding so called hate filled rhetoric when remainers post things like " this is why I am reminded why I detest you" followed by name calling and then being applauded with likes just because of his opinions, followed by silence from the rest then don't expect a silence from the opposition.

I will continue to post any article I find to be critical of the EU as I also have to read about all the preposterous doom awaiting this country and its all the fault of us bluddy brexiteers for being too thick to realise the harm we are doing. Unless of course all the moral high ground you occupy crumbles beneath you.

Dont worry Kent   i still love ya. Jack Boots and all   Anyway its good to be in the minority.  i often sense the feeling of dislike is very comforting.

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Another thing I find odd about the current poor state of affairs, is that those who appear most desperate to label themselves 'patriots' are the very people who've got us into the mess we are in, and who have so tarnished (possibly for ever) whatever reputation this country ever had...Ironic indeed!🤔

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18 minutes ago, weirpig said:

Dont worry Kent   i still love ya. Jack Boots and all   Anyway its good to be in the minority.  i often sense the feeling of dislike is very comforting.

Thank you lol.  but I am also aware of the fact that because we won the DEMOCRATIC referendum its the remainers that should be feeling the more comforted because after all nobody challenges a loser.

Talking of which Labour won Kensington by just 20 votes that's terrible they must have lied and cheated, lets all stamp our feet and demand a re-run.

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51 minutes ago, claret047 said:

Good morning.

Very quiet on here today.

As there is not too much going on I have decided to go into reflective mode and share with you my thought with regards to a book I am currently reading.

it is entitled the Wanderer and is written by Susan Gardiner  and tells the life of Frank Soo.

Who you may ask is Frank Soo. Well he was the first and only Footballer to play for England (9 times)from a Chinese background. At the time he played alongside Sir Stanley Matthews fr the National Team and some thought he was at least on a par to that great footballer but he seems to be erased from football memory. As well as captaining the RAF Team during the Second World War he also played for Stoke City (sorry @kent 😅) , Everton,Newcastle United, Brentford and Millwall. After the end of hostilities he went on to play for Leicester City and Luton Town. Following a stint at Luton he then went on to play for my local team, Chelmsford City, where i am the Safety Officer and a matchday steward. Being a keen City supporter is why I read the book. At the time he played for us (before I followed the mighty Clarets we boasted one of the top teams in non league football. We even owned over 20 houses for players to live in.

So far I have only read up to page 11 and up until now I have seen his parents background in the northwest of England and the open hostility there to  the Chinese immigrants. One particular piece caught my eye which I repeat below an extract thereof.

"Another possible reason fir the family to have moved away from the Manchester was because of the increased animosity towards Chinese immigrants during this period..The hostility was greatest in the north west of England, where many Chinese seamen had settled. In Liverpool  the resentment had reached such a point that it threatened to turn into serious social unrest............and Chinese labour became a major issue in that area in the 1906 General Election causing Socialist writer to comment "anyone who saw much of politics in the winter of 1905/6 must have noticed the pictures of Chinamen  on the hoardings aroused among many of  the voters an immediate hatred of the Mongolian racial type" " (Does that remind anyone of the posters displayed during the Referendum.? Funny how history repeats itself)

"Just as they are now, in the 21st century, politicians back then were unscrupulous in their use of immigrant workers as scapegoats-  and there is an uncanny similarity in the attitudes that left Chinese workers trapped in a double bind of prejudice to those faced by immigrants today. If they worked hard, they were  taking "local" peoples' jobs and undercutting wages. If they didn't have work they were lazy or even criminal."

The book goes on to describe the diatribe emanating  from the Liverpool Working Men's Conservatve Association  against the Chinese workers.

As well as reading books and articles on sport I like to read books on our country's history and what strikes me more than anything else is the tribal intolerance we have against anyone different to us. In more recent times it has been the Chinese then the Jews , followed by west Indians and the Irish and now it is anyone  from the Islamic faith.

Here endeth today's sermon.

Kind Regards

Dave

 

Dave you'll be delighted to know that Frankie Soo was very fondly remebered by Stoke fans of that era. They're mostly gone now, but we were brought up on tales of the exploits. He was talked about in very much the same way as Matthews, who some old timers never quite forgave for leaving for Blackpool!

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12 minutes ago, kent said:

Thank you lol.  but I am also aware of the fact that because we won the DEMOCRATIC referendum its the remainers that should be feeling the more comforted because after all nobody challenges a loser.

Talking of which Labour won Kensington by just 20 votes that's terrible they must have lied and cheated, lets all stamp our feet and demand a re-run.

Kent the fact that you put the word Democratic in upper case does not make it any more so. The fact that it was a manipulative mendacious referendum cannot be undone - it happened - you would gain far more credibility if you accepted that but continuing to deny the facts which stare you in face does no good to your argument. 

At times you have to give a little to win a little. 

That and the narrow majority should have been good grounds for a rerun but the majority of MPs did not have the courage to upset the sensitive sensibilities of the leavers - they did not wish to risk their seats.

In fact the whole shebang came about through the frailties of human nature which is a strange thing at times in the way it goes against perceived logic. 

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