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UK Politics May 2015 Onward

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1 hour ago, mike Meehan said:

The antics of some of our football hooligans when visiting matches abroad draping themselves in the national flag or the Union Jack and such far right wing organisations adopting these flags in a similar fashion hardly go towards instilling pride in one's country. 

I feel shamed at seeing our national emblems used for such purposes and I am sure others do as well. I personally find I can have more pride in that blue flag with stars on it. 

There was a time when we could have genuine pride in our country but sadly a minority have done much to destroy this. 

As far as the break up of the Union is concerned, I would have thought a way forward would be to allow all the countries their own domestic autonomy more but gather them together into a federated state - perhaps establish the main government at a more central area, Dudley? No skin off my nose. 

This could give us a situation where we could treat each other as more equal partners and build on that. 

I am sure that would put paid to a lot of the grievances.  

Federalism is a non starter, Scotland would still be outvoted and overwhelmed by 10:1, Wales and NI even more so.

Perhaps 30 or 50 years ago it might have worked but at the minute the only ones peddling this old chestnut are the Labour Party and only then for their vested self interest. No hope, ever, of getting it through the Commons, never mind the HoL.

Scotland has been cheated and lied to too often in the past, especially by Labour. Independence or complete subsumation are the stark choices facing us. Hope Over Fear, All Under One Banner with a positive vision for our Nation or the negative Londoncentric afterthough of Scotland as a cash cow and lobby fodder with sheeple and not much else.

Which would you choose?

Edited by frogesque

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21 minutes ago, frogesque said:

Federalism is a non starter, Scotland would still be outvoted and overwhelmed by 10:1, Wales and NI even more so.

Perhaps 30 or 50 years ago it might have worked but at the minute the only ones peddling this old chestnut are the Labour Party and only then for their vested self interest. No hope, ever, of getting it through the Commons, never mind the HoL.

Scotland has been cheated and lied to too often in the past, especially by Labour. Independence or complete subsumation are the stark choices facing us. Hope Over Fear, All Under One Banner with a positive vision for our Nation or the negative Londoncentric afterthough of Scotland as a cash cow and lobby fodder with sheeple and not much else.

Which would you choose?

That may be so and quite likely we have missed to boat for this with so much ill feeling have been generated but the EU have devised a system to enable the smaller nations to have a fairer crack at the whip. Therein probably one of the greater differences between the EU and the UK. 

Even though I am English I have been appalled at the way Mrs May has been doing everything she can to exclude the Scots from the realistic decision making of Brexit. Most of my adult life has been concerned with justice and in the last couple of years or so there has been so much injustice over this matter and it makes my blood boil. 

Had leave won fair and square I would have no reason to quibble but they didn't they cheated, then Mrs May took up the leave banner solely for the short term political benefit of herself and her party which makes her as bad as the wide boys who led the leave campaign.   

What was really needed was respect to be given by both sides for their different points of view and to try to reach a consensus and I couldn't agree more that size is not necessarily right as Mrs May seems to think.  

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1 hour ago, mike Meehan said:

I was really thinking about the flag which has 12 stars on it rather than 4.    :D

As for God save the Queen - it is a bit odd when having home internationals, we still have the National Anthem whilst the other home nations have their own.

The National Anthem is such a dirge tune it is little wonder we lose at times - it puts the team in the wrong state of mind - perhaps we should change it for Pomp and Circumstance, that is a bit more rousing. 

Some of us long for the day when all peoples follow the same flag: one with an image of the entire globe on it; until then, however, petty nationalists will continue to rule the roost...Och well, such is the narrow-minded, inward-looking mindset of too many members of the species, Homo sapiens?🦍

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32 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

Some of us long for the day when all peoples follow the same flag: one with an image of the entire globe on it; until then, however, petty nationalists will continue to rule the roost...Och well, such is the narrow-minded, inward-looking mindset of too many members of the species, Homo sapiens?🦍

2000px-Flag_of_the_United_Nations_(1945-

UN flag

The big problem is that Homo sapiens is essentially a tribal animal. Any political system that thinks otherwise is doomed to fail.

Edited by frogesque

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2 hours ago, mountain shadow said:

I'm being pedantic here, but the Union Flag predates the Acts of Union by some 100 years. It was introduced when James VI of Scotland became James 1st of Great Britain, there is no reason why the flag could not continue after the Act of Union is revoked.

You are right of course that in the event of Scotland divorcing England, there is no more United Kingdom, it is hard to see England wanting to keep Northern Ireland in that eventuality and England and Wales will be all that remains.

Of course. If the monarchical union was retained it would still have relevance ceremonially etc (athough the red saltire needs to come out if N. Ireland joins the republic).

As per former commonwealth countries etc.

What I meant is that it could no longer realistically be the flag of the rUK as a sovereign state; the one it uses internationally etc.

12 minutes ago, Mark wheeler said:

EEA the most favoured option.

If the fairies and unicorns ones are excluded (e.g. EEA with restrictions). 

Personally, with skilled Europeans workers flooding out of the UK as fast as they can, I don't know why brexit voters are worried about that aspect any more.

EU workers are demonstrably not 'coming here and taking our jobs', so it make no sense whatsoever to tighten controls on them.

Not unless you want to forcibly prevent them leaving or something. 🙂

Edited by scottish skier

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4 hours ago, mike Meehan said:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/968712/brexit-remoaners-doorsteps-campaigners-house-visit-uk-eu

Yesterday the Sunday Express published this article - apparently the pro EU side are making efforts to get amongst the public to demonstrate the truth of our membership of the EU. 

The leavers are complaining bitterly about this and trying to suggest that such actions usurp democracy.

But it is quite obvious that they only believe in selective democracy, one which applies to themselves, a mendacious referendum and excludes all opinions other than their own, which in fact is a far cry from the universal democracy I thought we had prior to this situation. 

In a truly democratic society the remainers have every right to disagree with brexit and they also have every right to try to persuade people of its pitfalls provided they do this within the law.

It does show that they have scant regard for true democracy but that they should vent their spleen in this manner is hardly surprising - it has been their constant modus operandi to belittle, bully and scorn those who disagree with them.

Hopefully this pro EU campaign will go a long way towards exposing the absurdity of the fanatic leave argument and shows up the leavers for what they really are. 

Hello Mike,

Yes indeed that austere paper was in full Rule Britania mode yesterday. You know the usual "they need us more than we need them" and "they are out to punish us" rhetoric.Iit would be quire humorous if it was not for the fact that the Colonel Blimps that write for the paper actual believe what they state to be true. It is then taken on board by the gullible to actual believe it to be 100% true also.

Kind Regards

Dave

 

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5 minutes ago, Wiltshire_snow_lover said:

 

Is that a whip with a drip or a drip with a whip?

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5 hours ago, mountain shadow said:

I'm being pedantic here, but the Union Flag predates the Acts of Union by some 100 years. It was introduced when James VI of Scotland became James 1st of Great Britain, there is no reason why the flag could not continue after the Act of Union is revoked.

You are right of course that in the event of Scotland divorcing England, there is no more United Kingdom, it is hard to see England wanting to keep Northern Ireland in that eventuality and England and Wales will be all that remains.

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing to say to both of them , have another vote , and whatever the result just accept it, and then get on with it. no skin off my nose.  I'm even starting to think that way about Brexit  , as I said the other day , the majority of MP's didn't want it in the first place  it's like having the local vampires looking after the blood bank.

Edited by 78/79

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2 hours ago, Ed Stone said:

Is that a whip with a drip or a drip with a whip?

There's certain clubs in London that cater for that sort of thing so I'm led to believe Pete :D

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https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/brexit-leaders-prove-that-the-campaign-to-leave-the-eu-was-entirely-driven-by-self-interests/04/06/

Apparently Nigel Farage's motives were to underscore his political credentials - in this he has succeeded (to an extent, though he was never elected as an MP for HMG despite a number of attempts) but from a personal wealth point of view he qualifies (quite how, or whether it was justified) for an eye watering EU pension, in addition to which he has cemented himself onto the speaking circuit which can be lucrative.

It never was for the people of the UK but a means for them and others to aggrandise themselves.

We know about Nigel Lawson applying for his carte de sejour in France - nuff said about that.

Jacob Rees Mogg expects to be in line for a huge windfall on his investments.

John Redwood advised investors to avoid investing in the UK. 

And this is despite promising the Earth, with the UK becoming a land of plenty with unicorns during the campaign which many fell for hook, line and sinker.  

In short these and others conducted a cynical mendacious campaign for leave without any fear of any consequences should they get it wrong - they will continue to be ok but for the remainder who will be adversely affected some seriously so but it is a matter of little concern to them.

They have no honour, they have no shame or conscience, they are unethical and they have no honesty. If other people behaved in the manner which they had, they would likely be incarcerated in the pokey.  

Hopefully if there is such a law as Karma they will end up getting their just deserts and perhaps recorded in history in a hall of horrors somewhere. 

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2 hours ago, Wiltshire_snow_lover said:

 

With such an important matter as this a free vote should be allowed for all MPs. The whips wish to bully their members into following the party line, which si not democracy. 

Hopefully sufficient of them will start to develop more backbone and the whips and the government will end up with egg on their face. 

Edited by mike Meehan

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Staff working in a pub chain that effects east Anglia through to London  have spent hours altering world cup bunting   the bunting that depicts all nations national flags that are competing in the world cup  has had to be altered due to complaints from  some London residents   the Saudi flag has been removed  as the flag that depicts the prophets name shall not be seen in properties were alcohol is sold    it just gets more bizarre 

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3 minutes ago, weirpig said:

Staff working in a pub chain that effects east Anglia through to London  have spent hours altering world cup bunting   the bunting that depicts all nations national flags that are competing in the world cup  has had to be altered due to complaints from  some London residents   the Saudi flag has been removed  as the flag that depicts the prophets name shall not be seen in properties were alcohol is sold    it just gets more bizarre 

Apparently it affects all Greene King pubs. A 'local' pub a couple of miles from here, next to GKN airbus factory, has had to 'comply'. This sort of reaction, to a few complaints, does nowt for inter-faith relations or acceptance of someone else's beliefs. In fact, it antagonises those who have, in recent years, come to understand and accept people who are culturally different from them.

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7 minutes ago, Bristle boy said:

Apparently it affects all Greene King pubs. A 'local' pub a couple of miles from here, next to GKN airbus factory, has had to 'comply'. This sort of reaction, to a few complaints, does nowt for inter-faith relations or acceptance of someone else's beliefs. In fact, it antagonises those who have, in recent years, come to understand and accept people who are culturally different from them.

It's a bit of bunting in a bluddy pub! Those demanding it's removal are ridiculous, as is the faux outrage of those looking for a chance to use it to stir.

Why can't all of you just grow up!

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11 minutes ago, davehsug said:

It's a bit of bunting in a bluddy pub! Those demanding it's removal are ridiculous, as is the faux outrage of those looking for a chance to use it to stir.

Why can't all of you just grow up!

I wonder if anybody's actually asked the "community" whether they were offended or not?

I suppose a response is to only sell water to Muslims as it's not allowed in a certain section of Quran and may cause offense.

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1 hour ago, davehsug said:

It's a bit of bunting in a bluddy pub! Those demanding it's removal are ridiculous, as is the faux outrage of those looking for a chance to use it to stir.

Why can't all of you just grow up!

Who cares!:wallbash:

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1 hour ago, davehsug said:

It's a bit of bunting in a bluddy pub! Those demanding it's removal are ridiculous, as is the faux outrage of those looking for a chance to use it to stir.

Why can't all of you just grow up!

The ironic thing is the complaint will have come from right wing conservatives (strict Muslims), just as the faux outrage does (Tories, UKIPers etc).

They're two peas in a pod really. 

Edited by scottish skier

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1 hour ago, scottish skier said:

The ironic thing is the complaint will have come from right wing conservatives (strict Muslims), just as the faux outrage does (Tories, UKIPers etc).

They're two peas in a pod really. 

I had a feeling you'd find an angle to link to Right wing views.

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1 hour ago, scottish skier said:

The ironic thing is the complaint will have come from right wing conservatives (strict Muslims), just as the faux outrage does (Tories, UKIPers etc).

They're two peas in a pod really. 

Why don't we have a referendum on it.

If you don't like the result then quite simply we can have another one.

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2 minutes ago, kent said:

Why don't we have a referendum on it.

If you don't like the result then quite simply we can have another one.

Like the one in which 37% of the electorate (never mind those who were so conveniently excluded) voted to leave the EU?

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2 hours ago, weirpig said:

Staff working in a pub chain that effects east Anglia through to London  have spent hours altering world cup bunting   the bunting that depicts all nations national flags that are competing in the world cup  has had to be altered due to complaints from  some London residents   the Saudi flag has been removed  as the flag that depicts the prophets name shall not be seen in properties were alcohol is sold    it just gets more bizarre 

At first I thought you were going to say the X of S. George had to be removed since England had got themselves eliminated before the first kick off! :rofl:

Note, Piggy will get this, for the rest: it's a JOKE!

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22 minutes ago, Bristle boy said:

I had a feeling you'd find an angle to link to Right wing views.

What I said is true though. Strong right conservatives are the same the world over.

And what can you say when you have UK right wingers complaining about Koran quotes on the side of buses, but at the same time angry that Saudi Arabian flags with quotes from the Koran on them are taken down?

It's a really new level of utter dumbass stupidity.

 

Edited by scottish skier

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3 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

What I said is true though. Strong right conservatives are the same the world over.

And what can you say when you have UK right wingers complaining about Koran quotes on the side of buses, but at the same time angry that Saudi Arabian flags with quotes from the Koran on them are taken down?

It's a really new level of utter dumbass stupidity.

 

Except of course in 1980s Soviet Russia (not to mention Maoist China) the Conservatives were those who stood against change...IMO, it's the standing against change that defines a 'Conservative' - it disnae matter if that change is to the left or the right?

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