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EU Referendum

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9 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

But, along with Taiwan, Pakistan (and countless others) we already have trade deals with all those countries...Why on why oh why do leavers keep peddling such blatant untruths?:wallbash:

They're all looking to get second hand JCBs on the cheap after it emerged England won't need them for much longer! :p

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39 minutes ago, kent said:

Yes it would seem that Osborne asked him to say that by leaving we would probably have no access to the market and it would irreversible. 

More lies from the remain camp to exaggerate the economic threat of leaving.

And they accuse the leave campaign of lying.

However depending on who gets the top job, some of them will pull us out anyway, so it's not really a scare story until we know what happens.

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16 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

But, along with Taiwan, Pakistan (and countless others) we already have trade deals with all those countries...Why on why oh why do leavers keep peddling such blatant untruths?:wallbash:

Just though I'd check that one, from my own persective: radio, laptop, e-cig & DVD - all from TPRoC; phone from Taiwan; stereo from Switzerland...So the lies just keep on coming!

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9 minutes ago, interested & confused said:

I can't find details of a UK/NZ trade deal? Is the deal  through the Eu? If so could a direct deal just for the UK be better?

#just asking

Neither can I - but all that NZ lamb gets in somehow??

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6 hours ago, mike Meehan said:

What a prattish post not worthy of a response - do you have any respect at all for views other than your own?

Do you? You're the one who wants to void a democratic referendum remember.

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6 minutes ago, claret047 said:

Good afternoon everyone,

I thought long and hard before I started this posting, but in the end decided to do so.

Pre Referendum I spent a lot of time very undecided as to which way I would vote, but in the end I went for Remain. I acknowledge that the EU is far from perfect, but on balance I felt we would be better in than out.

What, however, has saddened me since the result was known is gloating by certain posters on this thread who take delight in trying to annoy those who may have a different viewpoint to their own.There are ways to conduct a reasoned argument and one liners (or if we are lucky two liners in a condescending manner) is certainly not the best way of doing so to my mind.

Another thing that I find particularly.distasteful (I will refrain from naming names as you know who you are) is that there are instances of excitement being expressed at the possibility of economic meltdown for those countries remaining in the EU. In case anyone forgets each nation comprises ordinary people like you and I, each with loved ones to support and I find it incredible that anyone should wish ill fortune upon others. It is as if such posters considers others to be of an alien sub species to their superior selves.

Such opinionated twaddle is also very shortsighted as a weak Europe means they would be less able to trade with us and buy our goods and services and those from China and India and could then result in a world wide recession which is certainly in no one's interests including those of the UK.

Although a Remainer I want Brexit to work as the majority of the electorate voted for it, be it by a fairly narrow margin, but that is democracy in its basic form and we should go with the majority decision irrespective of how aggrieved we may feel at the outcome of the vote.

I feel better now that I have got that off my chest. Although initially reluctant to do so I felt that I had to in the end.

Kind Regards

Dave

Kind Regards

 

Entirely agree Dave and I think I have also made your main point on a number of occasions.

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3 hours ago, lfcdude said:

 

Simply untrue. I have read the interview. Daniel Hannan has just suggested Osborne asked Herr Schäuble to buddy up and provide a scare tactic for the remain camp.

Please have a read yourself and show where he says this. In fact, his words were that this would be an irreversible step. I invite you to show me where I got it wrong. Otherwise this is yet another example of spin from the leave camp, intended to produce a backlash against what they termed Project Fear.

Edited by Nick B
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33 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

Neither can I - but all that NZ lamb gets in somehow??

All the details of the EU trade with NZ. I'm assuming we currently trade with them on members terms so unlikely to be a better deal as a separate UK entity, given WTO regulations.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/new-zealand/

New Zealand ranked as the 50th largest trade in goods partner of the EU in 2015 while the EU represented New Zealand's second largest trading partner after Australia.

Total trade in goods amounted to €8.1 bn. Traditionally, New Zealand's exports to the EU are largely dominated by agricultural products while EU's exports to New Zealand have much more focused on manufactured goods.

New Zealand depends on international trade. New Zealand is a member of APEC, and part of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). While the EU remains an important trading partner for New Zealand, New Zealand's trade focus is increasingly on the countries of the Asia-Pacific rim.

Total trade in commercial services between EU and New Zealand in 2014 amounted to €3.6bn and represented 1/3 of the total trade.

EU foreign direct investment stock in New Zealand amounted to €7.2bn, and New Zealand investment stock in the EU was €3.3bn in 2014.

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7 minutes ago, Nick B said:

Simply untrue. I have read the interview. Daniel Hannan has just suggested Osborne asked Herr Schäuble to buddy up and provide a scare tactic for the remain camp.

Please have a read yourself and show where he says this. In fact, his words were that this would be an irreversible step. I invite you to show me where I got it wrong. Otherwise this is yet another example of spin from the leave camp, intended to produce a backlash against what they termed Project Fear.

I dont Speak German so simple google translate 

 

World on Sunday: You said before the vote also: "In is out is out in.". What's "out" today?

Schäuble: I have used this phrase to express request of the UK Treasury.

Welt am Sonntag: The British have asked just a German for this?

Schäuble: Yes, George Osborne asked me to come to London to strengthen the "Remain" camp and to show that a Proposed referendum on United Kingdom membership of the European Union would be an irreversible step. Each voter had to know: Just who is a member of the club, the rules of the club has a say. That's why I said this sentence. Actually, I have it no copyright.

 

Here it is in German 

 

Welt am Sonntag: Sie sagten vor der Abstimmung auch: "In is in. Out is out". Was heißt "out" heute?

Schäuble: Ich habe diese Formulierung auf ausdrückliche Bitte des britischen Finanzministers gebraucht.

Welt am Sonntag: Die Briten haben ausgerechnet einen Deutschen dafür gefragt?

Schäuble: Ja, George Osborne bat mich, nach London zu kommen, um das "Remain"-Lager zu stärken und aufzuzeigen, dass ein Brexit ein unumkehrbarer Schritt sein würde. Jeder Wähler musste wissen: Nur wer Mitglied des Klubs ist, kann die Regeln des Klubs mitbestimmen. Deswegen habe ich diesen Satz gesagt. Eigentlich habe ich dafür kein Copyright.

Edited by lfcdude
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15 minutes ago, lfcdude said:

I dont Speak German so simple google translate 

 

World on Sunday: You said before the vote also: "In is out is out in.". What's "out" today?

Schäuble: I have used this phrase to express request of the UK Treasury.

Welt am Sonntag: The British have asked just a German for this?

Schäuble: Yes, George Osborne asked me to come to London to strengthen the "Remain" camp and to show that a Proposed referendum on United Kingdom membership of the European Union would be an irreversible step. Each voter had to know: Just who is a member of the club, the rules of the club has a say. That's why I said this sentence. Actually, I have it no copyright.

His point is actually that if you leave a club you can't then expect the benefits of membership, nowhere is there a threat of exclusion. In fact it's the UK making the threats, all apart from Juncker, who is beginning to get on people's nerves with his rhetoric. Schäuble just makes the point that leaving the club is an irreversible step. There's nothing threatening about that, it's a simple statement of fact. The entire interview is actually very pragmatic and he shows his concerns equally for the people of Britain and of other member countries in the EU.

Edited by Nick B
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Looks like lawyers will attempt to sought legal action to force this one through parliament so there is no unlawful triggering on Article 50.

As they say, It's not over until the fact lady sings *(legally of course)

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17 minutes ago, lfcdude said:

I dont Speak German so simple google translate 

 

World on Sunday: You said before the vote also: "In is out is out in.". What's "out" today?

Schäuble: I have used this phrase to express request of the UK Treasury.

Welt am Sonntag: The British have asked just a German for this?

Schäuble: Yes, George Osborne asked me to come to London to strengthen the "Remain" camp and to show that a Proposed referendum on United Kingdom membership of the European Union would be an irreversible step. Each voter had to know: Just who is a member of the club, the rules of the club has a say. That's why I said this sentence. Actually, I have it no copyright.

 

Here it is in German 

 

Welt am Sonntag: Sie sagten vor der Abstimmung auch: "In is in. Out is out". Was heißt "out" heute?

Schäuble: Ich habe diese Formulierung auf ausdrückliche Bitte des britischen Finanzministers gebraucht.

Welt am Sonntag: Die Briten haben ausgerechnet einen Deutschen dafür gefragt?

Schäuble: Ja, George Osborne bat mich, nach London zu kommen, um das "Remain"-Lager zu stärken und aufzuzeigen, dass ein Brexit ein unumkehrbarer Schritt sein würde. Jeder Wähler musste wissen: Nur wer Mitglied des Klubs ist, kann die Regeln des Klubs mitbestimmen. Deswegen habe ich diesen Satz gesagt. Eigentlich habe ich dafür kein Copyright.

Clearly Hannan doesn't speak German either, because nowhere in your translation does Schäuble make the statement that Hannan claims in his tweet. 

Thanks for clearing it up, though. 

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25 minutes ago, Nouska said:

All the details of the EU trade with NZ. I'm assuming we currently trade with them on members terms so unlikely to be a better deal as a separate UK entity, given WTO regulations.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/new-zealand/

New Zealand ranked as the 50th largest trade in goods partner of the EU in 2015 while the EU represented New Zealand's second largest trading partner after Australia.

Total trade in goods amounted to €8.1 bn. Traditionally, New Zealand's exports to the EU are largely dominated by agricultural products while EU's exports to New Zealand have much more focused on manufactured goods.

New Zealand depends on international trade. New Zealand is a member of APEC, and part of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). While the EU remains an important trading partner for New Zealand, New Zealand's trade focus is increasingly on the countries of the Asia-Pacific rim.

Total trade in commercial services between EU and New Zealand in 2014 amounted to €3.6bn and represented 1/3 of the total trade.

EU foreign direct investment stock in New Zealand amounted to €7.2bn, and New Zealand investment stock in the EU was €3.3bn in 2014.

Nouska..

Interesting, but how much of this trade is actually with the UK?

MIA

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59 minutes ago, claret047 said:

Good afternoon everyone,

I thought long and hard before I started this posting, but in the end decided to do so.

Pre Referendum I spent a lot of time very undecided as to which way I would vote, but in the end I went for Remain. I acknowledge that the EU is far from perfect, but on balance I felt we would be better in than out.

What, however, has saddened me since the result was known is gloating by certain posters on this thread who take delight in trying to annoy those who may have a different viewpoint to their own.There are ways to conduct a reasoned argument and one liners (or if we are lucky two liners in a condescending manner) is certainly not the best way of doing so to my mind.

Another thing that I find particularly.distasteful (I will refrain from naming names as you know who you are) is that there are instances of excitement being expressed at the possibility of economic meltdown for those countries remaining in the EU. In case anyone forgets each nation comprises ordinary people like you and I, each with loved ones to support and I find it incredible that anyone should wish ill fortune upon others. It is as if such posters considers others to be of an alien sub species to their superior selves.

Such opinionated twaddle is also very shortsighted as a weak Europe means they would be less able to trade with us and buy our goods and services and those from China and India and could then result in a world wide recession which is certainly in no one's interests including those of the UK.

Although a Remainer I want Brexit to work as the majority of the electorate voted for it, be it by a fairly narrow margin, but that is democracy in its basic form and we should go with the majority decision irrespective of how aggrieved we may feel at the outcome of the vote.

I feel better now that I have got that off my chest. Although initially reluctant to do so I felt that I had to in the end.

Kind Regards

Dave

Kind Regards

 

What a great post, ideally we could close this thread with this post alone, sadly the Punch & Judy show will no doubt continue. 

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1 minute ago, Ed Stone said:

Google翻訳は、我々はすべて再生することができますゲームです!

Lovely use of translate app basic hiragana and kanji

paruru_thumb.gif?w=400&h=225

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I think it's best for people to calm down, back off from the insults, it's not nice to see, take a breather and come back later 

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Come on now, there is no need for personal digs and insults are there? Please keep to the debate, no personal punches, particularly ones which would be described as "Below the belt".

Thank you.

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1 hour ago, lfcdude said:

Thanks lose a debate so now result to bullying how low can u go? 

I agree with you on this point lfcdude. I'm certainly not bothered about your grammar or writing style. I can follow your ideas clearly.

All this, however, deflects away from the point I made about Hannan and the fact that his spin on what Schäuble actually said in the interview was misrepresentative. That point remains valid until countered with evidence.

Edited by Nick B
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an absolute ton of posts just hidden......for gods sake, some of you are like children, nothing but keyboard warriors or wind up merchants and you are completely wrecking this thread for the many who either debate in here or enjoy reading the informative debate from the majority of posters......get a grip and start behaving like the adults you claim to be!

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As you'd expect.

I've been chatting to my Mum who can become Irish, allowing me to do the same.

A British passport was a decent one to hold; Irish one looking much more attractive now.

Quote

http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/29/pf/uk-passport-europe-brexit/

UK passport loses luster following Brexit vote

The coveted British passport is losing its luster in the eyes of many U.K. residents and foreigners following Britain's decision to leave the European Union.

The U.K. passport is currently considered one of the most powerful in the world, giving holders a huge amount of global mobility.

But as the U.K. is expected to exit the European Union in roughly two years, that would revoke British citizens' automatic right to move freely through 27 other EU member countries.

Any restrictions that may be placed on British travelers will be dependent on negotiations between London and Europe's de facto capital, Brussels.

In a worst-case scenario, these states could require Brits to apply for visitor visas, noted Armand Arton, president of Arton Capital, a financial firm that specializes in helping wealthy individuals obtain multiple citizenships.

The U.K. ranks #2 on Arton Capital's latest "Power Rank" index, which ranks passports based on how many countries passport holders can visit without a visa.

U.K. passport holders are currently able to visit 157 countries without a visa, just behind the 158 countries that German and Swedish passport holders can visit.

Arton warns that if and when the U.K. exits the EU, the British passport might only get you visa-free travel to 123 nations. That would give it a ranking at #26 and put it slightly below Mexico.

 

Edited by scottish skier

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34 minutes ago, Hocus Pocus said:

What a great post, ideally we could close this thread with this post alone, sadly the Punch & Judy show will no doubt continue. 

I too was neutral, but opted to go on the other side of the fence.

I was going to say the same thing about Dave's post, but I see that the remianers are once again breaking out into abuse and using a personality based agenda for their discussion points.  I am of the believe that this approach is what lost them the referendum,, and it is what will now result in us leaving the EU..

BUT  remainers are attacking a guy because of his dementia? How low is that?

I was gong to not say anything more on personalities, but I feel I now must make a remark or two.....

With the 'admission' of Ed that he has German grandchildren.Are there any of the desperate 'remainers' on here, who have not either got property or family on the continent?

I have a cousin who has moved out to France about 5 years ago and they seem very happy and are settled into village life and get involved in the local 'council' debates..

So  I am now clean!

The above is written with a  'tongue in my cheek' attitude as to what is happening on here....

But however,  it is interesting that the strongest supporting remainers,  are either SNP mad and hence have their own political axe to grind, or have personal reasons for staying in.

I think that they represent about 10% of the public at large at the most  at the moment.  Can I again ask that we move on as remainers are once again displaying their personal viewpoints, and no one can discuss when we do not know their personal involvements.

If I had close family in France I would argue too, but don't try and make the majority of the people suffer so you can thrive!

MIA

PS AJPshark.

Thanks for you post... Just seen it after posting the above. I must admit I was annoyed at the tone of the discussion had taken against Lfc, and I felt the above had to be recognised.

Any chance of opening a new thread on the future?

MIA.

Edited by Midlands Ice Age
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