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EU Referendum

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The one thing I will admire is the amount of passion shown on here by people on both sides. It certainly goes against the general trend these days of apathy. In fact the post by BB earlier about how he feels the vote will go down does concern me, because I actually think he is pretty close to what might actually happen. I would hate for such a big decision to be made by such an apathetic populous, whatever the result and especially so if it is tight. 

There is an old phrase that could be used here I think.

Quote

‘You Don’t Know What You Have Until It’s Gone’

Could be very true whatever the result and there could be a large surge one or another post the vote which could complicate matters further.

Anyway things have got a little heated on here tonight, can we please tone it down a little please. 

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13 minutes ago, Snowyowl9 said:

Comment.

It should also be remembered that the successive British Governments lied to the people about the membership of the European Union, and now the truth is starting to come out on that issue. My own opinion is that Britain should come out of the European Union, as should other members because the public do not realise that they have no more Sovereignty as British, or Dutch, or Spanish, and the fact that they cannot make the decisions for their own country which are made in Europe mainly by unelected Commissioners via the European Parliament.
Enough of that because we cannot be drawn into politics. 

 

"That was a European referendum broadcast by Russia Today. Next on BBC1, The One Show".

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I agree with the idiom CS of you don't know what you have til its gone.   But you could also say on the other hand that familiarity breeds contempt.

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Maybe @knocker  can comment...

Quote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36054645

Cornwall: In or Out?

Over the last 15 years, Cornwall has received more than £1bn of EU structural investment. Don't worry if that fact has passed you by. Plenty of the people I met in Cornwall appear to be unaware of it too...

...On the deprivation index, parts of Cornwall are poorer than regions of Poland, Lithuania and Hungary and, because of that, it's eligible for EU funds. The aim is to have a long-term impact on the economy.

Between 2000 and 2014, £888m was invested in Cornwall from the European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) and the European Social Fund (ESF). The money has financed infrastructure projects, airports, universities, road widening schemes, superfast broadband and local businesses.

Another £486m has been earmarked between 2014 and 2020.

Seems for Cornwall, being part of the EU is much better than being in the UK?

Certainly, you have to ask why Cornwall needs such EU investment if all is fine and dandy when Westminster is in charge.

Edited by scottish skier

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5 hours ago, scottish skier said:

Maybe @knocker  can comment...

Seems for Cornwall, being part of the EU is much better than being in the UK?

Certainly, you have to ask why Cornwall needs such EU investment if all is fine and dandy when Westminster is in charge.

Don't know how this 'deprivation index' is calculated but I'm guessing that having lots of young families on very low incomes unable to afford anywhere to live scores highly.

Cornwall's circumstances are not unique but are particularly exaggerated due to its geographical isolation and natural beauty. Hence, the only reliable employment is seasonal tourism and most properties on the coast are second homes - seriously, have you been there out of season? It's like walking through ghost towns.

It's good that the ESF is available to boost the Cornish infrastructure and draw in employers but until UK governments address the 2nd home issue (they won't, it's a guaranteed vote loser) the problems for local people will persist.

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13 hours ago, kent said:

   Meanwhile the only argument the In camp can offer is more of the same old boring self imaginary fear which will be determined as lack of enterprise.

 

 

Given that there have been many erudite and detailed posts highlighting reasons, on all subjects relevant to the debate, for remaining in the EU I'm surprised by this comment. But on refection perhaps not. None of these posts contained any of the required trigger words needed for retention, Muslims, Islam. Germany, Merkel, uncontrolled immigration,swamped, hate, terrorists, fear and white supremist enclaves. Without these triggers your defence mechanism will have automatically been activated and all trace of reading these posts would be removed from your memory banks. This is simply to ensure that you are not influenced and sidetracked from your mission, eradication of the EU, by what can only be perceived as pernicious, irrelevant propaganda by the soft underbelly of society, the left wing loonies.

Edited by knocker
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6 hours ago, scottish skier said:

Maybe @knocker  can comment...

Seems for Cornwall, being part of the EU is much better than being in the UK?

Certainly, you have to ask why Cornwall needs such EU investment if all is fine and dandy when Westminster is in charge.

Yes SS I've long been aware of this as should everyone living in these parts be. I haven't mentioned it previously because I didn't want to regionalise the debate but I should perhaps have reconsidered this on finding out that the East Midlands had become a caliphate.

One of the major problems has been the lack of investment in transport infrastructure, particularly to points east, as highlighted by the recent Dawlish fiasco. Plenty of talk, talk by successive governments but little action.

The expansion of Exeter Uni. has been very good for the region and winter tourism is on the up and not to forget agriculture is still a major industry. Second homes are an issue but not a major one.

But investment from the EU has been invaluable and hopefully will continue to be so. Anyone living in Cornwall should vote to remain without equivocation.

Some more from the CCC.

https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/business/europe/

Of if the vote turns out to leave we may have consider our options and align ourselves with the EU. Stricter border controls on the English border has a nice ring.

F-KNW.jpg

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9 hours ago, Captain Shortwave said:

Same could be said of domestic banks of course. Poor managerial and economic decisions are not just restricted to our neighbours. 

As for joining the EU, well there is of course our never ending political sparring with Russia which despite the cold war ending over two decades ago seems to never stopped those in the west or the east from throwing uncertainty both political and economic into the mix, so there is no surprise that either countries in eastern Europe want to join or the EU wants to push east to protect its own interests (Could be viewed as right or wrong, that is another debate altogether). 

Anyway, the one point I feel I must stress that political reform is needed, but this isn't just for the EU for which I agree is a necessity, but also at home and other nations outside of the EU. Unfortunately the debate is sewed somewhat, not helped by political figures heading both the remain and leave campaigns which is created its own problems considering these politicians themselves are part of the major political and economic problems in the first place (This includes everyone, both Labour and the Conservatives as they are equally guilty here over recent decades).

You'll never ever get EU reform, if you think you ever will you need to wake up and smell the coffee.  David Cameron failed miserably in that quest and I believe a stronger politician wouldn't necessarily do any better.  The EU system is akin to a mad dog out of control and will never be modified.  Its time to be brave step up to the plate and take charge of our own destiny and put the "great" back in Great Britain.  After all why did we fight two world wars for?  Didn't resisting an overpowering major europen country who wanted to dominant everyone have something to do with both of them?  Isn't Mrs Merkel et al not trying once again to tell the rest of Europe what we can and cannot do and take control of us?   We need to get out and make our own way in the world and re-engage with Europe on a different platform, a much stronger one.  If you have no faith in your own country's ability to lead this change then shame on you...this country can lead the way out of the shambles known as the EU - have some faith in the UK's ability to succeed on its own.  The money squandered on the EU is needed here in this country - on our roads, rail, nhs, education, care and nursing homes so and so forth and not supporting poor EU countries.  

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9 minutes ago, Snowycat said:

You'll never ever get EU reform, if you think you ever will you need to wake up and smell the coffee.  David Cameron failed miserably in that quest and I believe a stronger politician wouldn't necessarily do any better.  The EU system is akin to a mad dog out of control and will never be modified.  Its time to be brave step up to the plate and take charge of our own destiny and put the "great" back in Great Britain.  After all why did we fight two world wars for?  Didn't resisting an overpowering major europen country who wanted to dominant everyone have something to do with both of them?  Isn't Mrs Merkel et al not trying once again to tell the rest of Europe what we can and cannot do and take control of us?   We need to get out and make our own way in the world and re-engage with Europe on a different platform, a much stronger one.  If you have no faith in your own country's ability to lead this change then shame on you...this country can lead the way out of the shambles known as the EU - have some faith in the UK's ability to succeed on its own.  The money squandered on the EU is needed here in this country - on our roads, rail, nhs, education, care and nursing homes so and so forth and not supporting poor EU countries.  

How much is the Express these days?

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8 hours ago, scottish skier said:

Maybe @knocker  can comment...

Seems for Cornwall, being part of the EU is much better than being in the UK?

Certainly, you have to ask why Cornwall needs such EU investment if all is fine and dandy when Westminster is in charge.

I've posted similar for other area's too, Kent county, And the area's MIA wanted figures for. I don't know if it helped at all though as no one really seemed to notice the posts at all.

Edited by alexisj9
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6 minutes ago, Snowycat said:

You'll never ever get EU reform, if you think you ever will you need to wake up and smell the coffee.  David Cameron failed miserably in that quest and I believe a stronger politician wouldn't necessarily do any better.  The EU system is akin to a mad dog out of control and will never be modified.  Its time to be brave step up to the plate and take charge of our own destiny and put the "great" back in Great Britain.  After all why did we fight two world wars for?  Didn't resisting an overpowering major europen country who wanted to dominant everyone have something to do with both of them?  Isn't Mrs Merkel et al not trying once again to tell the rest of Europe what we can and cannot do and take control of us?   We need to get out and make our own way in the world and re-engage with Europe on a different platform, a much stronger one.  If you have no faith in your own country's ability to lead this change then shame on you...this country can lead the way out of the shambles known as the EU - have some faith in the UK's ability to succeed on its own.  The money squandered on the EU is needed here in this country - on our roads, rail, nhs, education, care and nursing homes so and so forth and not supporting poor EU countries.  

But the un-reformable EU government is only the result of the sum of its parts, that is the sum of several corrupt domestic governments like Westminster. If we leave the EU you won't end the issues we currently experience in the UK, we will still be run by politicians who run the country for the benefit of the few as opposed to the people like the majority of western capitalist governments. Reform needs to start from the bottom up, only then can you set an example and spread reform beyond our borders. At least that way if reform in the EU is nigh on impossible then at least we have a much more palatable bunch of characters representing us.

Anyway all I am saying is that an Brexit vote will result in a lot of disappointed people in my opinion, mainly as a lot of the issues you have with the EU are actually more caused by our own domestic government. Will immigration drop significantly? Actually has there been any reasonable plan to address this apart from saying that "We" will deal with it which basically states act tough but do nothing. Then there is problems with economic growth away from the south east? Well that isn't the fault of the EU again is it? It is our own government and its obsession of keeping the financial sector dominant and as such keeping resources centralised around London.

We are not going to get a better deal with the EU when we leave, that is a simple logical fact, the EU has to look after its own members so we will start off at a loss there. Then what kind of agreement would we get? If it is similar to Norway/Switzerland then the Brexit campaign has quite simply failed because we will still be paying into the EU and also have to accept similar freedom of movement conditions to what we currently have. Even if this doesn't happen there will have to be some kind of deal on a sliding scale between no relationship with the EU whatsoever and the deal listed above. At this point I will say that the UK will be fine outside of the EU, we won't go off a cliff or anything like that, likewise the EU will be okay if we leave, institutions this big will be able to cope or at least should be able to cope with decisions like this. But it is about what I feel is best for the UK, and I feel that is a remain vote though of course I will admit to being biased due to my own personal position (A scientific background where a lot of financial capital is drawn from the EU due to poor UK based funding, especially so in academia.).

It isn't un-patriotic to support remain by the way, that type of statement in your post should never be allowed to cross the Atlantic from the US.

 

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12 hours ago, kent said:

The UK recently overtook France to become the worlds largest economy.  According to the WEO World economic outlook Britain is expected to be one of the best performing countries for the next 15 years.

You obviously don't want to hear this.

If your statement is accurate ??? then the UK economy has done rather well in its capacity as a member of the EU.

Edited by ciel
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46 minutes ago, Dougal said:How much is the Express these days?

Yawn yawn.....what Express?  Do you mean do I read the Daily Express or our local Express and Star?   Then no don't think I've ever picked up the former to be honest and the latter was useful purely for the hatched, matched and desptached.   In fact don't think I've read a newspaper in a very long time, most only print drivel.  I'm quite capable of making my own decisions based on my own observations of the world around me without being swayed by what the newspapers have to say, one way or the other.

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For anyone who's interested this is the document that shows what has been allocated to the England government to distribute 2014/2020. Our government allocates who gets what even with this, which I didn't realise myself. Wales, Scotland and Ireland are separate in this, so I'll see if I can find those.

England

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/european-structural-and-investment-funds/european-funds-european-structural-and-investment-funds

Scotland

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Business-Industry/support/17404

Wales

http://gov.wales/funding/eu-funds/?lang=en

Northern Ireland/ Western Scotland.

http://www.eurolink-eu.net/eu-funding-2/

http://www.seupb.eu/Home.aspx

Think that covers everyone.

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, knocker said:

Given that there have been many erudite and detailed posts highlighting reasons, on all subjects relevant to the debate, for remaining in the EU I'm surprised by this comment. But on refection perhaps not. None of these posts contained any of the required trigger words needed for retention, Muslims, Islam. Germany, Merkel, uncontrolled immigration,swamped, hate, terrorists, fear and white supremist enclaves. Without these triggers your defence mechanism will have automatically been activated and all trace of reading these posts would be removed from your memory banks. This is simply to ensure that you are not influenced and sidetracked from your mission, eradication of the EU, by what can only be perceived as pernicious, irrelevant propaganda by the soft underbelly of society, the left wing loonies.

Your reticence to conveniently ignore the truth and constantly trying to look intellectually superior in your choice of wording to be as offensive as you can is becoming tedious.  In good old fashioned phrasing nothing more than a wind up merchant.  As for detailed posts relevant to the debate wheres the proof?   Again all supposition and fear.

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1 hour ago, ciel said:

If your statement is accurate ??? then the UK economy has done rather well in its capacity as a member of the EU.

Only because we are not shackled with the Euro.  On continued membership of this club we would eventually be brow beaten to relinquish more and more of our ability to take the path we choose.

If the EU applied to join itself it would be refused entry on the grounds of being undemocratic.

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1 hour ago, Snowycat said:

Yawn yawn.....what Express?  Do you mean do I read the Daily Express or our local Express and Star?   Then no don't think I've ever picked up the former to be honest and the latter was useful purely for the hatched, matched and desptached.   In fact don't think I've read a newspaper in a very long time, most only print drivel.  I'm quite capable of making my own decisions based on my own observations of the world around me without being swayed by what the newspapers have to say, one way or the other.

Fair enough, but if you don't read the Express you may want to think about working for them. Your post is as heavily laden with rhetoric and clichés as any editorial on Europe that's ever appeared in that 'newspaper'.

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1 hour ago, kent said:

Only because we are not shackled with the Euro.  On continued membership of this club we would eventually be brow beaten to relinquish more and more of our ability to take the path we choose.

If the EU applied to join itself it would be refused entry on the grounds of being undemocratic.

I think that, in order to be truly 'democratic', each European country should have its own House of Lords. That way, there would be somewhere in the order of 30,000 unelected bureaucrats! The British way is always the right way?:D

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What on earth is Theresa Villiers doing as Northern Ireland Secretary? How she can say with a straight face that border controls won't be needed between N/Ireland and Ireland if the UK exits the EU. How can you have an open border as EU citizens will be able to travel to Ireland and then just cross into the north and into the UK. She also downplayed possible problems with the Good Friday Agreement when that includes fundamental EU principles and she also completely ignored that this will likely cause more division between the communities.

Its blatantly obvious to anyone not living in cloud cuckoo land that a UK exit is a big problem for Northern Ireland.

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20 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

I think that, in order to be truly 'democratic', each European country should have its own House of Lords. That way, there would be somewhere in the order of 30,000 unelected bureaucrats! The British way is always the right way?:D

I was going to make a post or start a new thread about narcissistic personality disorder, in regard to some of the outpourings on here, but on consideration, thought it not quite appropriate.:D 

However, lack of empathy, inability to cooperate, belief in one's superiority and Machiavellianism are indicators.

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43 minutes ago, Dougal said:

Fair enough, but if you don't read the Express you may want to think about working for them. Your post is as heavily laden with rhetoric and clichés as any editorial on Europe that's ever appeared in that 'newspaper'.

As I say don't know the first thing about the paper so don't know if that's a compliment or an insult, can't say that I care either.  What I do observe, however, is the "in camp" are failing to come up with any coherent or convincing arguments for staying in the EU other than maintaining the status quo.  Chin up as you get older you'll get wiser....

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Border controls would need to be restored between north and south Ireland. However I can't see the sectarian elements would be bothered whether we are in the EU or not.

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1 minute ago, Snowycat said:

As I say don't know the first thing about the paper so don't know if that's a compliment or an insult, can't say that I care either.  What I do observe, however, is the "in camp" are failing to come up with any coherent or convincing arguments for staying in the EU other than maintaining the status quo.  Chin up as you get older you'll get wiser....

You've hit the nail on the head re status quo, that's the strongest argument for Remain. Its upto to the Leave campaign to put forward a realistic view of what the UK out of the EU would look like. Most people just don't want a lot of drama, they just want to get on with life, have a good job and home and some nice holidays. These people won't put that at risk because all of a sudden they're overcome by some desperate need for more sovereignty or will react to take back control slogans. People in internet forums might care about sovereignty or control but the vote won't be decided by people who are really engaged or very passionate on both sides of the debate.

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17 minutes ago, Snowycat said:

 Chin up as you get older you'll get wiser....

How patronising and ignorant that comment is.

Relying on my life experiences and reading or listening to reasoned argument, I have concluded that to remain is in the UK's interests.

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39 minutes ago, Snowycat said:

As I say don't know the first thing about the paper so don't know if that's a compliment or an insult, can't say that I care either.  What I do observe, however, is the "in camp" are failing to come up with any coherent or convincing arguments for staying in the EU other than maintaining the status quo.  Chin up as you get older you'll get wiser....

Incorrect it's just the out brigade inability to spot a sound argument if it hit them in the face. 

There are many good arguments from remain regarding issues. There are also good arguments from leave but my opinion is that the remains arguments are more relevant . 

As a side note I was thinking before about food that is of protected origin . I EU assign this designated protected origin to foods.. and no less to British food such as cheddar cheese, Aberdeen Angus beef and Welsh lamb .. and this allows it to be transparently available for export across EU. If we left the EC then this ceases and it would damage our good export for sure. No one will be interested in buying British food exports because good has a better reputation on the continent to be brutally honest.

Edited by SP1986
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