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coldcomfort

UK WILL NOT TOLERATE EXTREMISTS - TERESA MAY

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But if it's always be down to individual choice whom to respect have they not got every tight to call you a racist if they so wish? I mean putting aside belief in honour killings and child sex that I very much doubt they would advertise, leaving you in the dark regarding that, you are left with a lot of so called respectable Muslims, who believe in arranged marriages, So essentually you are objecting to people who have a different culture to your own.

No, not as i see it. If to like or dislike someone is not down to individual choice, then I think we are all in trouble. Whether I choose to like or respect Ali or Allister should be my decision, not some government dictate. As for 'arranged' marriage, yes I am 101% against it, primarily because in 8000-10000 cases per year 'arranged' actually means forced. I could neither like or respect any person from any race that supported this practice, but the point is that should be my choice, just as it's the choice of the devote muslim to not like or respect teenage white girls he sees peeing and puking in the streets on his way home from the mosque. 

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its more that you gravitate to familiarity regardless..when I lived and worked in Calgary the expats in our office inc me were labelled as the 'British Mafia' a term of endearment rather than a slur..as we tended to unconsciously formed our own little sub group with secret handshakes and use of slang or language which would often confuse Canadians which to us was just the norm from being brought up in the UK

 

And that is in a country with a similar culture. Different ethnic groups in Britain have different cultures and, providing it's within the law, this is fine but the only way multiculturalism will work is if everyone involved accepts the difference,  It has been forever thus.This of course is far too simplistic and the evolution of interactions between cultures is these days influenced by many things, not least by the spread of Islam and immigration.

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And that is in a country with a similar culture. Different ethnic groups in Britain have different cultures and, providing it's within the law, this is fine but the only way multiculturalism will work is if everyone involved accepts the difference,  It has been forever thus.This of course is far too simplistic and the evolution of interactions between cultures is these days influenced by many things, not least by the spread of Islam and immigration.

 

Yes, in Canada you also have the fracophones in Quebec, never mind the native American tribes.

 

In Britain, we have 7 fairly widely spoke different 'native' languages (off the top of my head English, Scots, Ulster Scots, Scottish Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Cornish and Welsh).

 

Even English isn't one specific language. In Scotland we are taught a different version to people in England (on top of the English standard English version) which is known as 'Scottish standard English' which includes words from Scots and Gaelic (mainly nouns e.g. we don't have Lakes here, but lochs, likewise we have burns not streams). People outwith Scotland tend not to learn this version so e.g. don't use the word outwith.

 

Even then you have regional versions of languages within the home nations such as Doric (a form of Scots) in the NE of Scotland. Cockney rhyming slang is another example of a distinct regional dialect.

 

So, for example, it can't be demanded that people speak English in the UK (there's no legal official language). Try that in the outer Hebrides or in parts of Wales and you'd be considered very rude, particularly as those speaking e.g. Welsh will have been quite courteous in learning English when e.g. people from England, Scotland etc haven't necessarily learnt any Welsh...

 

On top of that you have 3-4 different legal systems so you can't respect British law as it doesn't exist. You can respect e.g. N Irish law or English law. You may get your ear felt for being drunk and disorderly in England, but in Scotland you'd be committing a breach of the peace.

 

There is just no such thing as a single British culture, laws or set of values. 

 

But then that applies to most countries, even more so in Britain because its a state made up of 3 countries and a province (of another country).

 

As for immigrants... Just pulling up an example...The most popular self declared national identity for muslims (mainly S Asian in origin) in Scotland is Scottish. So, someone visiting from Wales is technically more 'foreign' than they are in terms of culture / identity! Certainly, chances are if you pop into a corner shop in Glasgow, the (originally) Asian gent behind the counter will speak to you in Glaswegian. If he realises you are English, he'll likely adjust to that out of courtesy so you can understand better (Scots do this all the time - use a lot of Scots with each other, but English with English people - it's almost subconscious).

 

The UK has always been multicultural. In terms of new cultures adding to the mix; the biggest barrier to that is locals not welcoming new cultures into the pot.

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There is just no such thing as a single British culture, laws or set of values. 

 

 

I agree with what SS posted but just to take the above. To me, rightly or wrongly, the fact that there is no British culture and set of values has always been highlighted by the mass migration to the United States in the 19th century. I know it started earlier but peaked during this time.

 

Hundreds of thousands of people from Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England, here you could even divide it into regions, notable Cornwall emigrated to the US. At the same time they were joined by people from European countries such as Germany, Czechoslovakia, Lithuania, Finland, etc.

 

They settled all over the US mainly following the explosion in mining that was taking place, The Cornish for example had a notable presence in California, Nevada, Michigan, Montana, Wisconsin. The Welsh in Pennsylvania

 

Wherever they settled they formed their own communities, essentially to maintain their culture and identity from their homeland. They still have a Cornish feste in Wisconsin. Scranton in Pennsylvania was more Welsh than Cardiff and probably had more Welsh speakers. The people from Europe did the same and you had Czech., German, Lithuanian, etc. communities.

 

The point I'm labouring is, because 'British' is an artificial construct, there was no British community, no British culture or identity.

 

One may well ask, what happened to the Native Americans? Well I think we all know the answer to that.

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I agree with what SS posted but just to take the above. To me, rightly or wrongly, the fact that there is no British culture and set of values has always been highlighted by the mass migration to the United States in the 19th century. I know it started earlier but peaked during this time.

 

Hundreds of thousands of people from Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England, here you could even divide it into regions, notable Cornwall emigrated to the US. At the same time they were joined by people from European countries such as Germany, Czechoslovakia, Lithuania, Finland, etc.

 

They settled all over the US mainly following the explosion in mining that was taking place, The Cornish for example had a notable presence in California, Nevada, Michigan, Montana, Wisconsin. The Welsh in Pennsylvania

 

Wherever they settled they formed their own communities, essentially to maintain their culture and identity from their homeland. They still have a Cornish feste in Wisconsin. Scranton in Pennsylvania was more Welsh than Cardiff and probably had more Welsh speakers. The people from Europe did the same and you had Czech., German, Lithuanian, etc. communities.

 

The point I'm labouring is, because 'British' is an artificial construct, there was no British community, no British culture or identity.

 

One may well ask, what happened to the Native Americans? Well I think we all know the answer to that.

Perhaps worth remembering the thrust of this thread, which was about May saying there will be no place for people who do not support 'British values'. I agree in the main with your points re culture and I think from an historical viewpoint most of us know what British values were up until very recently - however the question remains, what are they now?  

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Perhaps worth remembering the thrust of this thread, which was about May saying there will be no place for people who do not support 'British values'. I agree in the main with your points re culture and I think from an historical viewpoint most of us know what British values were up until very recently - however the question remains, what are they now?  

 

I'm not sure that we would all agree on what were historical British values. Perhaps a reminder of what Cameron had to say on the subject last June. Pure hokem.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-values-article-by-david-cameron

 

And an article in the Guardian.

 

Sorry, David Cameron, but your British history is not mine

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/15/david-cameron-british-history-values

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I'm not sure that we would all agree on what were historical British values. Perhaps a reminder of what Cameron had to say on the subject last June.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-values-article-by-david-cameron

 

And an article in the Guardian.

 

Sorry, David Cameron, but your British history is not mine

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/15/david-cameron-british-history-values

I read previously what Cameron said about British values and having now just read them again I was reminded why I thought at the time what an absolute **** he is. That piece is so full of half truths and contradictions it's laughable, with the guy who hung the flag of St George outside his house during a recent by election showing just how anyone who claims to be proud of their history and heritage is truly perceived.

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 most of us know what British values were up until very recently - however the question remains, what are they now?  

 

A dislike of 'scroungers?*'

 

Not sure what the latest figures are.

 

Scrounger-high-res1.png

 

 

Google trends has some more detail.

 

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=scrounger&cmpt=q&geo=GB

 

-----

 

*Disabled, poor, on low income.

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I don't think there's such thing as British values. But in a very basic sense, I would say this country stands for 'live and let live'.

 

Tolerant values then? Unfortunately we now have to live with people who hold the belief that you should  "live our way or die"..

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No, not as i see it. If to like or dislike someone is not down to individual choice, then I think we are all in trouble. Whether I choose to like or respect Ali or Allister should be my decision, not some government dictate. As for 'arranged' marriage, yes I am 101% against it, primarily because in 8000-10000 cases per year 'arranged' actually means forced. I could neither like or respect any person from any race that supported this practice, but the point is that should be my choice, just as it's the choice of the devote muslim to not like or respect teenage white girls he sees peeing and puking in the streets on his way home from the mosque. 

 

I couldn't agree with that any more.

 

I'm always weary of people who "demand" respect. Respect is organic, it is formed and grows through experiences and interactions, it's somewhat contradictory for an authority (a government, for example) to demand or impose ideals of respect upon/from people, especially if it clashes with an individual's own beliefs or experiences, as it demonstrates a lack of respect in itself; respect our enforced authority.

 

Courtesy and respect are two different things, for a society to function there needs to be at least a basic level of common courtesy between people, but respect is a more personal emotion, and one in which I believe is impossible to impose.

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[quote name="knocker" post="3183779" timestamp="1427193132

Multiculturalism would work fine if everybody respected other peoples values.

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I read previously what Cameron said about British values and having now just read them again I was reminded why I thought at the time what an absolute **** he is. That piece is so full of half truths and contradictions it's laughable, with the guy who hung the flag of St George outside his house during a recent by election showing just how anyone who claims to be proud of their history and heritage is truly perceived.

The second article is interesting ..re the comment extracted below.. - aren't/haven't both the labour and conservatives been bleeting on with values and nation as a whole repeatedly in recent weeks? ....

"Where the government's agenda becomes dangerous is if one side claims its values are those of the nation as a whole. This is an age-old strategy of authoritarian regimes and movements, used to exclude, ostracise or suppress dissidents."

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The second article is interesting ..re the comment extracted below.. - aren't/haven't both the labour and conservatives been bleeting on with values and nation as a whole repeatedly in recent weeks? ....

"Where the government's agenda becomes dangerous is if one side claims its values are those of the nation as a whole. This is an age-old strategy of authoritarian regimes and movements, used to exclude, ostracise or suppress dissidents."

The definition and acceptance of patriotism appears to be a very moveable feast amongst all politicians, driven almost entirely by the need to court votes. 

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