This Is What Humanity's Impact On The Planet Looks Like

[Devonian]

Like I said if you want to be a Vegan, fine, but keep it to yourself and quit preaching.

I'm not sure why she shouldn't have her say but you can? Why should that be the way it is? Why is she preaching but you not?

Anyway, fwiw, I speak as a non 'veggie' someone who was, formerly, a farmer of animals in an intensive way. I think we take meat to casually. I eat meat, but not much and if I do I try to make sure it was reared well. Call it a result of my experiences.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Devonian

[Crepuscular Ray]

Dev, if you look back, she's definitely been veering towards preaching rather than having her say.

 

That said, 80 years ago, my dad's family (not badly off as his dad was a bank manager) would perhaps have had one joint of meat a week, which would have been made to last for several days, with fish on Friday, perhaps sausages on Saturday and a bacon for a fry-up on Sunday. Westerners do eat far more meat now than even a few generations ago. The planet's resources can't sustain this exponential growth in livestock rearing and its effects vis-a-vis deforestation, especially with the rapid growth of meat-eating in the far east. But calling people immoral because they do something our species evolved to do is just plain silly.

[knocker]

The morality of breeding animals for food is subjective and open to debate. The fact that it's inefficient and environmentally destructive is not. The population issue, although valid, does tend to be overplayed. We produce enough food to sustain twice the current population but of course it's not evenly distributed. Also the argument that humans have been eating meat since their knuckles touched the ground rather ignores evolution.

Edited March 6, 2015 by knocker

[Devonian]

Dev, if you look back, she's definitely been veering towards preaching rather than having her say.

 

That said, 80 years ago, my dad's family (not badly off as his dad was a bank manager) would perhaps have had one joint of meat a week, which would have been made to last for several days, with fish on Friday, perhaps sausages on Saturday and a bacon for a fry-up on Sunday. Westerners do eat far more meat now than even a few generations ago. The planet's resources can't sustain this exponential growth in livestock rearing and its effects vis-a-vis deforestation, especially with the rapid growth of meat-eating in the far east. But calling people immoral because they do something our species evolved to do is just plain silly.

Actually, she wasn't the first to use the word 'moral' in this thread. She did in fact react to someone accusing her of that - which is rather different.

But I replied because of this:

"I don't agree with you because of argument X and/or Y, Z etc....."

or

"I don't agree with you because you are preaching"

I prefer the former.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Devonian

[Crepuscular Ray]

Point taken, although emotional arguments on one side of a debate tend to preclude rational arguments from the other.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Crepuscular Ray

[AderynCoch]

Dev, if you look back, she's definitely been veering towards preaching rather than having her say.

 

That said, 80 years ago, my dad's family (not badly off as his dad was a bank manager) would perhaps have had one joint of meat a week, which would have been made to last for several days, with fish on Friday, perhaps sausages on Saturday and a bacon for a fry-up on Sunday. Westerners do eat far more meat now than even a few generations ago. The planet's resources can't sustain this exponential growth in livestock rearing and its effects vis-a-vis deforestation, especially with the rapid growth of meat-eating in the far east. But calling people immoral because they do something our species evolved to do is just plain silly.

I think this the problem. One can argue that there's no humane way to kill an animal but for me the biggest concern is the way animals are killed rather than the fact they are killed, and this is worse when it comes to mass production. I don't see how factory farming for the sake of making meat less of a luxury can be justified.

 

On the other hand small-scale free-range farming and hunting doesn't seem so bad when you consider that 1) there's less incentive to resort to cruel methods in the name of efficiency, and 2) a lot of animals get hunted by natural predators anyway.

 

I definitely think there needs to be a change from the "convenient" meat market.

[4wd]

Don't eat bacon or chicken nuggets but buy lamb or beef then.
I sell lambs and beef cattle, and all they get is grass and silage from upland meadows, and a little grain from a couple of fields of barley grown on farm.
These claims that meat uses X acres more land than growing baked beans or whatever don't hold up because we can't grow vegetables or grain on large areas of land  -  but we can grow grass and clover.
I suspect the most dedicated vegans would struggle to digest that, unless they evolve four stomachs.

 

[knocker]

Some years ago I studied the Dutch intensive pork industry in detail. No need to go into it all that but one thing that struck me forcibly at the time was that much of the feed was grown and exported in some poor South African countries who were struggling to feed themselves.

[knocker]

This is a problem we face on a national level as well as globally , any major supply problem with oil wheat or other then we are well screwed imo ...

 

Any major supply problem with phosphorus we would be more than well screwed.

[Devonian]

Don't eat bacon or chicken nuggets but buy lamb or beef then.

I sell lambs and beef cattle, and all they get is grass and silage from upland meadows, and a little grain from a couple of fields of barley grown on farm.

These claims that meat uses X acres more land than growing baked beans or whatever don't hold up because we can't grow vegetables or grain on large areas of land  -  but we can grow grass and clover.

I suspect the most dedicated vegans would struggle to digest that, unless they evolve four stomachs.

I'll surprise you, I agree with a lot of that! Though north Yorkshire isn't the world, carefully managed pasture fed meat is a better option than feeding grains and pulses to animals.

[March Blizzard]

I'm going to casually stroll in here and just say this.

Thousands of years ago we ate meat and did very little harm to the environment, today on the other we do to a certain extent (this is a discussion on the degree rather than a black and white yes/no answer).

There is another much bigger reason for humans damaging the planet, one which tends to be avoid on the mainstream press, and that is over-population.

In terms of food production, we need to evolve ideas and ways to produce more food from the same amount of space, be it animal or crop, though I suspect a more sustainable world would require a less meat filled diet (that said mass deforestation for crop production doesn't help the planet either.).

 

It's probably telling that one of the most well know naturalists, Sir David Attenborough, is a supporter/patron of organisations that advocate population control. If anyone has seen first hand how humanity has affected the natural world, it's him.

[Polar Maritime]

It's probably telling that one of the most well know naturalists, Sir David Attenborough, is a supporter/patron of organisations that advocate population control. If anyone has seen first hand how humanity has affected the natural world, it's him.

 

Yes very much so.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN06tLRE4WE

[sundog]

A human population increasing by 1.5 million a week -maybe the phrase "breeding like rabbits"  should be changed to 'breediing like humans'. Bloody crazy, have people not heard of contaception,blindly shagging away with no thought of the consequences,lack of intelligence it seems to me. The planet can not sustain that kind of population growth, it will only add to more misery and suffering to both people and animals.

[Polar Maritime]

A human population increasing by 1.5 million a week -maybe the phrase "breeding like rabbits"  should be changed to 'breediing like humans'. Bloody crazy, have people not heard of contaception,blindly shagging away with no thought of the consequences,lack of intelligence it seems to me. The planet can not sustain that kind of population growth, it will only add to more misery and suffering to both people and animals.

The Catholic Church have not helped when it comes to contraception from past generations, At least slowly there view's to the masses are changing.

[sundog]

The Catholic Church have not helped when it comes to contraception from past generations, At least slowly there view's to the masses are changing.

Yes that is very true it must be said. Take the republic Ireland for example,contracepion was pretty much illegal from 1935 up to the 1980s due to the power of the catholic church. It was as late as 1985 that condoms for example were allowed to be sold, just a mere 30 yrs ago.

[Jax]

Population growth is IMHO a bigger threat to the planet than anything else, forget warming, we are a bigger problem.

[BornFromTheVoid]

Population growth is IMHO a bigger threat to the planet than anything else, forget warming, we are a bigger problem.

 

Well, warming is just one of the manifestations of unmitigated population growth. They're very much connected.

[knocker]

Well, warming is just one of the manifestations of unmitigated population growth. They're very much connected.

 

Very true and the other connection is resource depletion coupled to the ever increasing consumer society.

[Jax]

Population growth is IMHO a bigger threat to the planet than anything else, forget warming, we are a bigger problem.

 

 

Very true and the other connection is resource depletion coupled to the ever increasing consumer society.

 

 

Well, warming is just one of the manifestations of unmitigated population growth. They're very much connected.

 

 

So still points to single main cause and single main object to be corrected to fix a multitude of ills then.

[knocker]

Not necessarily. You could keep the population figures as they are with no increase and advances in technology and billions in the east playing catch up would still greatly impact on resources. Of course the overall population is a key component but whilst consumerism remains the god and multinational companies rule the roost the rape of the environment will continue to gather pace.

[Jax]

less people, less rape though. We clearly cannot trust them to abide by the needs of the planet.

[knocker]

Why fresh water shortages will cause the next great global crisis

 

Last week drought in São Paulo was so bad, residents tried drilling through basement floors for groundwater. As reservoirs dry up across the world, a billion people have no access to safe drinking water. Rationing and a battle to control supplies will follow

 

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/08/how-water-shortages-lead-food-crises-conflicts