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Terrorist outrage in Paris & now Brussels


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Posted
  • Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
  • Weather Preferences: Winter: Cold & Snowy, Summer: Just not hot
  • Location: Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire
    2 hours ago, kent said:

    The Saudi regime spend billions of pounds each year to teach extremism in schools in Britain Europe, USA in fact all over the globe.  When Cameron was questioned recently on the Saudi funding of faith schools in Britain he said he feared cash from the Saudis might be encouraging extremism but then went on to say a cosy relationship with the Arab nation is good for our security.  The weak spineless not fit for purpose hypocrite didn't disclose that the billions of pounds worth of arms deals and kick backs are the real reason its acceptable.

    The Saudi regime is one of the most abhorrent in the world, and it's disgusting we're so cosy with them.

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    Posted
  • Location: Medlock Valley, Oldham, 103m asl
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and/or snow in Winter and Thunderstorms any time of the year.
  • Location: Medlock Valley, Oldham, 103m asl
    1 hour ago, mike Meehan said:

    Multiculturalism flourished for the most part during Roman times and at times in the Middle ages and to an extent prior to the later parts of the 20th century where in a number of places there were mixed communities of Moslems, Jews and Christians getting on together quite amiably.

    But in each of these religions there are extremists who continue to agitate and upset status quo. 

    Aye but apart from Judaism most of the modern religions weren't really around for most of the empire until much later during the Byzantine era when Jesus (who was a Jew) & that Mohammad character invented theirs & then their followers went at loggerheads, not to mention modern firearms and improvised/suicide bombs were not invented or thought of but were used yesterday. Big differences between Roman times and now.

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    Posted
  • Location: Mostly Watford but 3 months of the year at Capestang 34310, France
  • Weather Preferences: Continental type climate with lots of sunshine with occasional storm
  • Location: Mostly Watford but 3 months of the year at Capestang 34310, France
    Just now, Frost HoIIow said:

    Aye but apart from Judaism most of the modern religions weren't really around for most of the empire until much later during the Byzantine era when Jesus (who was a Jew) & that Mohammad character invented theirs & then their followers went at loggerheads, not to mention modern firearms and improvised/suicide bombs were not invented or thought of but were used yesterday. Big differences between Roman times and now.

    As far as the history was concerned I was speaking generally from Roman times up until close to our modern times.

    I am still trying to make up my mind as to whether the Moslem route is more of a political one rather than a religious one. Throughout the ages religion, or pseudo religion has been used by leaders in an effort to get their populace to do their bidding.

    Yes, we have made enormous technical advances including great efficiencies in killing each other but it seems hardly any advances in human nature - the civilisation we have is but a veneer - the Holocaust proved that.

    I am sure there are people amongst us who would enjoy the gladiatorial fights and the casting of the Christians to the lions.

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    Posted
  • Location: Medlock Valley, Oldham, 103m asl
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and/or snow in Winter and Thunderstorms any time of the year.
  • Location: Medlock Valley, Oldham, 103m asl
    21 minutes ago, mike Meehan said:

    As far as the history was concerned I was speaking generally from Roman times up until close to our modern times.

    I am still trying to make up my mind as to whether the Moslem route is more of a political one rather than a religious one. Throughout the ages religion, or pseudo religion has been used by leaders in an effort to get their populace to do their bidding.

    Yes, we have made enormous technical advances including great efficiencies in killing each other but it seems hardly any advances in human nature - the civilisation we have is but a veneer - the Holocaust proved that.

    I am sure there are people amongst us who would enjoy the gladiatorial fights and the casting of the Christians to the lions.

    Indeed. We haven't really moved on to fully appreciate our purpose of living which is a great unique thing and a waste if people spend their lives hating others and blowing themselves up - what a waste. Will we ever learn? I'm not so optimistic. I think it's just in humans to be very competitive and try to be dominant to the point of killing someone to get one over on them. We're still pretty animalistic.

    Despite all the technology & social media bringing people closer and making the world that bit smaller there's still huge divisions in our world, if not more than ever mostly because of different & increasingly extreme interpretations of religions & beliefs. It shouldn't be that way as at the end of the day we're all human & there is good and bad in all religions & races etc, even as a right winger I can see that. But I just can't see an end to the division in what is left of my life. Maybe that is pessimism but hey ho things don't look great in 2016.

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    Posted
  • Location: Poole Dorset
  • Location: Poole Dorset
    4 hours ago, Blitzen said:

    I don't think Americans are all that interested in what goes on outwith their own country.  Perhaps their controlled MSM is to blame for that though.   I believe a  survey was carried out asking people about their feelings regarding Putin and the Crimean annexation and hardly anyone could point to Crimea on a map.   Maybe American Muslims are too far away from the original home of their religion to be influenced as much?:unknw:

    Quite.  I have a cousin that's lived in America for 30 years and has a small engineering factory.  On a recent visit he told me that most of the people he had met,which is obviously quite a few had heard of England not even realising that it was the UK adjoined to Scotland Wales etc and the incredible fact that the majority of them had no idea where it was on the map of the world. He also said the culture was almost like if you hadn't been on the telly then youre no one.   Iguess that when it comes to the USA we are pretty insignificant.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne
    7 hours ago, mike Meehan said:

    The problem is Knocker is that it hurts more when it gets closer to home.

    Much like the logistical effort regarding Ebola was stepped up ten fold when it was feared it could spread to the west  Also media coverage increased dramatically, when the USA and Spain confirmed their first locally transmitted cases.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne
    3 hours ago, kent said:

      Iguess that when it comes to the USA we are pretty insignificant.

    I guess when it comes to the UK the people of the poorer countries are pretty insignificant. It's not that long ago the British murdered 20, 000 Kikuyu regarding them as no better than animals.

    And we weren't that insignificant when the US gave us a vital helping hand in two world wars.

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    I wouldn't mind betting a pound to a pinch of salt that many who advocate fortress Britain as protection against Islamic terrorists (Islam?) are also vociferous critics of Israel who have spent 67 years fighting the Arab hordes, more particularly in recent years.terrorists funded and armed by Iran. In general I agree with the criticism of Saudi Arabia but I'm struck by the deafening silence regarding Iran that has been funding and arming terrorists for years. Not forgetting their influence in Iraq which in no small measure greatly influenced the recent mayhem in the ME.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield
  • Weather Preferences: Any Extreme
  • Location: Sheffield South Yorkshire 160M Powering the Sheffield Shield

    A rare time I agree with you knocker.

    For all those who criticize Israel say if France was shelling parts of southern England every day the attitude nationwide would be the same as Israel and the demands on the Government would be the same.

    A few things I like too see is Universities stop inviting extremists to talk. The University where I work refuse to ban such invites as it's against free speech but at the same time will ban speeches from Jewish or groups considered to be affiliated to the likes of the bnp. This attitude needs to change.

    More propaganda needs to be on TV and on the internet making Isis or isil and the ideas behind it as evil. Basically use the same techniques as ISIS.

    Promote the Muslim groups who against such actions while at the same time make sure the ones promoting hatred are closed down.

    Stop fighters from returning from such regions. However if families want to leave let them. Why should they forced to live in a society they hate and want to destroy.

    Deport families who actively supporting family members fighting jihad once intelligence has been collected on who else they are working with. I prefer deport as they will recruit more members in jail which is already happening. At lot of people won't like this idea though so jail is more likely.

    Change our middle eastern policy so we don't destabilize more countries which allow a fertile ground for training and further recruitment.

    Stabilize Syria as soon as possible with Assad stepping down after free elections.

    Stop selling arms to the middle east

    A large recruitment of police and conventional forces in the UK

     

     

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Burton-on-Trent
  • Location: Burton-on-Trent

    I did buy in to the pro-Palestine movement a bit, but after seeing what their leaders do every day I think Israel has every right to defend themselves. Though let's not pretend that Israel are innocent. Just look at the map of the area today compared to what the UN plan was in 1946.

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    38 minutes ago, knocker said:

    I wouldn't mind betting a pound to a pinch of salt that many who advocate fortress Britain as protection against Islamic terrorists (Islam?) are also vociferous critics of Israel who have spent 67 years fighting the Arab hordes, more particularly in recent years.terrorists funded and armed by Iran. In general I agree with the criticism of Saudi Arabia but I'm struck by the deafening silence regarding Iran that has been funding and arming terrorists for years. Not forgetting their influence in Iraq which in no small measure greatly influenced the recent mayhem in the ME.

    Well you are wrong there in my case, because I am a big believer in strengthening our own borders against Muslim extremists, but I'm not in any way over critical of Israel, who I see as being in a very vulnerable and invidious position. 

    Despite the howls on here about the reinstatement of border controls being pointless in the fight against terrorism, I note this morning the news is full of stories about France, Holland and Germany in particular doing precisely that right now, so one can only assume they are finally starting to see the benefits of it....if only as some sort of deterrent. 

    As Vals said very pointedly yesterday we are at war in Europe, but the fact still remains it's still difficult to even name the base religion of the enemy without offending some groups, let alone take the fight to them properly. Whilst those on the left continue to protect these monsters from even verbal criticism, the atrocities will continue to become ever more violent and ever more bloody, meanwhile at the same time maintaining the absurd situation where blowing innocent women and children to smithereens is more acceptable than raiding a mosque or arresting a hate preacher suspected of promoting terror.

    Take to wake up imho.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    11 minutes ago, coldcomfort said:

    Despite the howls on here about the reinstatement of border controls being pointless in the fight against terrorism, I note this morning the news is full of stories about France, Holland and Germany in particular doing precisely that right now, so one can only assume they are finally starting to see the benefits of it....if only as some sort of deterrent. 

    This is called 'Being seen to be doing something'. Also about trying to make people feel safer, rather than necessarily really making them safer*. Political expediency too of course.

    ----

    *It's just that what makes people feel safer is not necessarily something that actually makes people safer. This is why, for example, people fear flying more than car travel yet the latter is a much bigger killer. Also why people in the US like having a gun for protection, even though it greatly increases the probability of them being shot...

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Sedgley Black country 731ft 222 metres
  • Location: Sedgley Black country 731ft 222 metres

    France's Prime Minister Manuel Valls tells French radio: "There is an urgent need to strengthen the external borders of the European Union.

    He says action is required to stop people crossing into Europe with false passports as Islamic State has "stolen a large number of passports in Syria".

     

    Frances prime minister  stating the obvious

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    21 minutes ago, weirpig said:

    France's Prime Minister Manuel Valls tells French radio: "There is an urgent need to strengthen the external borders of the European Union.

    He says action is required to stop people crossing into Europe with false passports as Islamic State has "stolen a large number of passports in Syria".

     

    Frances prime minister  stating the obvious

    Indeed...it wasn't long ago that a reporter was able to buy one (and other docs) and with it assume the identity of a dead Syrian for c.£1300...he got into Europe using it with it no problems whatsoever.

    Of course it was a Mail reporter, so clearly some on here will immediately suggest it's a made up story......but hey ho nothing new there!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3235320/PASSPORT-TERROR-MailOnline-reporter-buys-Syrian-papers-sold-ISIS-fighters-sneaking-Europe-hidden-refugees.html

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    8 minutes ago, coldcomfort said:

    Indeed...it wasn't long ago that a reporter was able to buy one (and other docs) and with it assume the identity of a dead Syrian for c.£1300...he got into Europe using it with it no problems whatsoever.

    Did he claim asylum and enter the asylum system, or apply for a temporary visit visa?

    It's just that I'm not seeing the obvious benefit of a Syrian passport in terms of getting into Europe. You'd be better with a fake EU one. Quite a lot of ISIS fighters are, well, Syrian, so presumably Syrian passport holders after all. 

    ---

    Incidentally, better EU external border control does make sense to me.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sedgley Black country 731ft 222 metres
  • Location: Sedgley Black country 731ft 222 metres
    8 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

    Did he claim asylum and enter the asylum system, or apply for a temporary visit visa?

    From reading the article it states that he aquired a passports and other documentation   driving licence etc  which would gain him asylum in europe

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3235320/PASSPORT-TERROR-MailOnline-reporter-buys-Syrian-papers-sold-ISIS-fighters-sneaking-Europe-hidden-refugees.html

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    31 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

    Did he claim asylum and enter the asylum system, or apply for a temporary visit visa?

    It's just that I'm not seeing the obvious benefit of a Syrian passport in terms of getting into Europe. You'd be better with a fake EU one. Quite a lot of ISIS fighters are, well, Syrian, so presumably Syrian passport holders after all. 

    ---

    Incidentally, better EU external border control does make sense to me.

    Perhaps if you read the article first before commenting on it SS, you might find the answer to your question.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Beverley, East Yorks. (2 metres a.s.l.)
  • Weather Preferences: Something good in all four seasons
  • Location: Near Beverley, East Yorks. (2 metres a.s.l.)

    I believe they have just apprehended that surviving airport bomber ..

    B

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35879236

    Edit: to add BBC link to news

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    Posted
  • Location: Mostly Watford but 3 months of the year at Capestang 34310, France
  • Weather Preferences: Continental type climate with lots of sunshine with occasional storm
  • Location: Mostly Watford but 3 months of the year at Capestang 34310, France

    With the internal administration of Syria being at sixes and sevens because of the civil war it is very likely that blank passports will be stolen and sold on with purchaser being able to portray himself as 'Micky Mouse' for example.

    No doubt the internal records in many cases will have been destroyed so to check back to establish the veracity of people's antecedents is likely to be problematic to say the least, so for many we have no way of knowing.

    The only sensible thing we can do when these people come in is to make sure they are fully documented, including fingerprints and DNA etc and enter them on a pan European database which is continually kept up to date as these people come to notice - that way we may be better placed to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

    Interesting to note that the two suicide bombers were in fact from Belgium so the furore about border controls does not really apply in this case.

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    Posted
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City
  • Location: 4 miles north of Durham City

    How long before people from certain ethnic minorities are ordered to wear special monitoring tags 24/7? I think sadly, that if these attacks continue to happen - there will be calls for these things.

    I'd like to add that murdering civilians is "haram" in Islam and punishable under Sharia law. These people are a sickness emerging from the Wahabbi tradition that was lionized since the days of Lawrence Of Arabia and the fall of the stabilizing Ottoman Empire.

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    17 minutes ago, mike Meehan said:

    With the internal administration of Syria being at sixes and sevens because of the civil war it is very likely that blank passports will be stolen and sold on with purchaser being able to portray himself as 'Micky Mouse' for example.

    No doubt the internal records in many cases will have been destroyed so to check back to establish the veracity of people's antecedents is likely to be problematic to say the least, so for many we have no way of knowing.

    The only sensible thing we can do when these people come in is to make sure they are fully documented, including fingerprints and DNA etc and enter them on a pan European database which is continually kept up to date as these people come to notice - that way we may be better placed to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

    Interesting to note that the two suicide bombers were in fact from Belgium so the furore about border controls does not really apply in this case.

    Are you being serious Mike?....the bombmaking mastermind behind yesterday and Paris came from Hungary into Austria last summer embedded within the migrants..... Open borders = open invitation to do us harm.

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    17 minutes ago, PersianPaladin said:

    How long before people from certain ethnic minorities are ordered to wear special monitoring tags 24/7? I think sadly, that if these attacks continue to happen - there will be calls for these things.

    I'd like to add that murdering civilians is "haram" in Islam and punishable under Sharia law. These people are a sickness emerging from the Wahabbi tradition that was lionized since the days of Lawrence Of Arabia and the fall of the stabilizing Ottoman Empire.

    In the case of the Belgian problem, their closeness with Saudi over the years has seen a disproportionately large number of wahabbi moving there and spreading their hatred. Bottom line here is both Belgium and Saudi have an enormous number of questions to answer here, but at least as far as the latter is concerned I suspect these questions won't even be asked....the Saudi's are untouchable.

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    Posted
  • Location: Mostly Watford but 3 months of the year at Capestang 34310, France
  • Weather Preferences: Continental type climate with lots of sunshine with occasional storm
  • Location: Mostly Watford but 3 months of the year at Capestang 34310, France
    1 hour ago, coldcomfort said:

    Are you being serious Mike?....the bombmaking mastermind behind yesterday and Paris came from Hungary into Austria last summer embedded within the migrants..... Open borders = open invitation to do us harm.

    Have you heard of electronic communication which bypasses frontiers? And in any case a bomb maker is hardly likely to pass through a frontier border post with 'BOMB MAKER' tattooed on his forehead and what happens about the forged passports we are hearing about where the origins cannot be established because of the chaos of a civil war?

    Your faith in these types of people being picked up at land border controls is naïve (it happens occasionally that the stupid ill prepared ones are picked up but the ones we are really after manage to get through) and what happens once they have successfully passed through the border?

    I refer you to my reply earlier this morning on the EU Ref thread:

    Your comment:

          1 hour ago, coldcomfort said:

    Exactly the point....fixed border checkpoints would put another obstacle into their planning process, i.e make things more difficult, because at the moment no consideration whatsoever need be given to the risks involved in getting from A to B. Again no one is suggesting every border road crossing could or should be manned, but if full passport controls are in place on the major highways/motorways, straight away these are pretty much taken out of the risk assessment process. This means the authorities could then concentrate on known road crossings with random mobile patrols, drones, ANPR etc, etc, but at the same time everyone should know that passports could be requested at any points within x miles of a border. These very simple rule changes would give these killers much, much more to think/worry about, but again no one is suggesting it would eradicate cross border terrorism altogether...it would just shift the 99/1% risk ratio currently in favour of the terrorists in the right direction. 

    My reply:

    Not passports or ID cards demanded within X miles of border but these documents to be demanded for inspection at any time anywhere.

    And the police authorities to be alert to groups of young men travelling and to use the old police parlance, 'turn them over' which means stop, speak to them, demand inspection of docs which could be scanned on a machine in the police vehicle* and if considered suspicious, search them, their vehicle an take photographs. 

    *I know that the Gendarmerie Nationale have had computers on board linked to a national data base on some of their vehicles for yonks now because one I was working with showed me his, so it just means the addition of a scanner in addition to the keyboard and digital cameras are so common place.

    By routinely making such checks it will lessen the room for manoeuvre in respect of the wannabe terrorist whilst at the same time building up a picture of him on a data base.

    In addition ID cards should be issued to all with the police having the power to demand inspection and also a power to detain where it is not produced and the ID not otherwise established or the document is suspected false.

    I agree we are fighting a war here and it is no time to be felinefooting but internal land border patrols within the EU are only a minor aspect as compared to all the other things which can be done and we still have external border controls here for people from outside the EU.

    EDIT

    What you also have to consider is that your average border guard is underpaid doing a repetitive routine job where after a while the concentration flags - they are not normally the brightest ones on the block otherwise they would be doing something else and human nature being what it is they will not always be at their best.

    There is also the problem of the smaller border crossings with a smaller number of people who could be blackmailed or bribed into letting people through. 

    What we really need are people with initiative who can think on their feet with a certain freedom of action working the manner I described.

    It is so easy for administrators to devise a plan on paper and expect it to be put into effect but often quite a different manner when doing it for real.

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