The Midlands - Weather Chat

[Terminal Moraine]

I'd be interested to know a bit more about your site and the exposure of the thermometer CH.

Is the site a particular frost hollow, or is it on a gentle slope and bounded by a wall, embankment or some other obstruction which could cause cold air to pool?

How high above the ground is your thermometer?

I notice it's a Six's style thermometer, which aren't the most accurate in the world, but having said that both sides of the column appear to be reading about the same temperature and it would be unusual for even a Six's thermometer to be 3c out unless the mercury column is broken or the scale at the back of the thermometers has moved.

With regard to frost persisting in the shade it is, as Tony says, all down to dew point rather than how low the  air temperatue is.

Thick frost and a scattering of snow has persisted all day in the shade here with a max' of 3.0c.

 

Edit; No reason to be annoyed. It's not a personal crticism but a matter of scientific principle that if a reading varies greatly  from  its' neighbours it should be questioned until the reason for it is discovered.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Terminal Moraine

[cyclonic happiness]

I'd be interested to know a bit more about your site and the exposure of the thermometer CH.

Is the site a particular frost hollow, or is it on a gentle slope and bounded by a wall, embankment or some other obstruction which could cause cold air to pool?

How high above the ground is your thermometer?

I notice it's a Six's style thermometer, which aren't the most accurate in the world, but having said that both sides of the column appear to be reading about the same temperature and it would be unusual for even a Six's thermometer to be 3c out unless the mercury column is broken or the scale at the back of the thermometers has moved.

With regard to frost persisting in the shade it is, as Tony says, all down to dew point rather than how low the  air temperatue is.

Thick frost and a scattering of snow has persisted all day in the shade here with a max' of 3.0c.

It's located 5' above the ground, next to a large multi-span polytunnel and in a park.

It's right next to an open vent to the tunnel and around 7 feet away from a large water tank and around 12 feet from a 6' fence.

It's shaded all day.

 

And what about the depth of the frost? I've only ever seen mypex lift that much when it's been lower than -5'c? There was no wind last night, so it couldn't have been wind chill? 

Edited December 13, 2014 by cyclonic happiness

[cyclonic happiness]

[Terminal Moraine]

Thanks for that CH. I'm wondering if the land rises slightly to the left of the photo and out of shot?

If that's the case it's possible that a pool of cold air could drain across the land to the left and collect adjacent to the polytunnels which would act as a shallow but effective barrier.  If there was no breeze to move it it would then stagnate as the night progressed  and cool further.

Could this explain why your min' was so much lower than at other nearby sites?

You mentioned you had other thermometers on the site, how did their readings compare,  or are they in the tunnels?

[conor123]

Very gusty today but dry so far, cloudy but not as dull/dark as was expecting, 10.2c

[cyclonic happiness]

Thanks for that CH. I'm wondering if the land rises slightly to the left of the photo and out of shot?

If that's the case it's possible that a pool of cold air could drain across the land to the left and collect adjacent to the polytunnels which would act as a shallow but effective barrier.  If there was no breeze to move it it would then stagnate as the night progressed  and cool further.

Could this explain why your min' was so much lower than at other nearby sites?

You mentioned you had other thermometers on the site, how did their readings compare,  or are they in the tunnels?

The others read between -3 -4'c and they are inside the tunnels. The land to the left does rise sharply, so it may account for the colder temps. I'll set some more thermo's up at the same site for next time adn see how they all compare.

[Midlands Ice Age]

It has been dull, breezy and cold this morning (temp around 6C), after a brightish start.

This afternoon it' s even darker and breezier  with a temp of 7.5C currently.

 

MIA. 

[Terminal Moraine]

The others read between -3 -4'c and they are inside the tunnels. The land to the left does rise sharply, so it may account for the colder temps. I'll set some more thermo's up at the same site for next time adn see how they all compare.

I feel fairly confident that the reason for your low min' has been found and that is, It seems that you have inadvertently created a small frost hollow within your site.

It would be very interesting to see the readings from other thermometers on the same site, away from the polytunnels, or on the other side of them.

Thanks for persevering in the face of what must feel like criticism from all sides.

[TonyH]

The others read between -3 -4'c and they are inside the tunnels. The land to the left does rise sharply, so it may account for the colder temps. I'll set some more thermo's up at the same site for next time adn see how they all compare.

Good work CH seems you are getting to the bottom of the low readings Apologies if I came across as critical.

As with TM I feel the proximity of the polytunnels to be the factor in the localised much lower temperature you are experiencing. Perhaps the temperature within the tunnel falls lower than outside in the open, or the cold from the construction itself is affecting your reading, in effect producing something closer to a ground reading? It would be really interesting to get measurements from a more exposed site away from objects but placed at a similar height, I find that fixing a thermometer to a wooden post or fence is reasonably accurate in such a setting.

Edited December 15, 2014 by TonyH

[Arnie Pie]

Some of the many hightlights from Brumcams first year of live streaming 2014

Edited December 15, 2014 by Arnie Pie

[Terminal Moraine]

A moderate sleet shower around 0630. Current temp' is 2.5c.

[Midlands Ice Age]

Minimum of 2.4C

Currently at 2.8C with sunny intervals and variable cloud

 

Looks like a better day today.

 

MIA

[Polar Maritime]

A few sharp sleet showers passing through here just now.

[Bishop Brennan]

Just to whet the appetite, here is an amazing picture taken in Knowle during the January 2013 cold spell.

 

Following a period of heavy rain, the passing cars splashed water onto a roadside hedge. Once the freezing air arrived shortly afterwards, these amazing icicles were formed:

 

 

Bish

[picog]

What a great photo Bish. We get something similar on our lane - hedges both sides, single track and plenty of puddles and potholes.

A nice bright chilly day today, max of 7.4C. Temp falling quite quickly this evening, already down to 3.3C, so hoping for a frost.

[conor123]

Lot of cloud this afternoon/evening, NW winds will ensure a frost free night here

Refraining from viewing the charts till after Christmas but fingers crossed for this winter yet, I remember two years ago charts were just as dire and winter never kicked in till January 13th. Then had some of the best snow events for years (the best being the one just after Spring Equinox which stayed on the ground into April).

[cyclonic happiness]

Defining image of March 2013, 6' snow drifts blowing on to the lanes. This only became passable in April!

 

and this in lowland Warwickshire.

 

Edited December 15, 2014 by cyclonic happiness

[Polar Maritime]

A few here from that March, I'm sure some would of seen them before, The lane to my drive.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Polar Maritime

[Mair Snaw]

ahh March 2013....what a cracking months that was....we still had snow in the fields end of April up here....the drifts after the first few days were so big the even the JCB at the end of our village was struggling to get thru...the road out the village was a single track with massive 2 meter drifts in places for about 3 or 4 weeks amazing...some more of that would suit me this winter....

[cyclonic happiness]

ahh March 2013....what a cracking months that was....we still had snow in the fields end of April up here....the drifts after the first few days were so big the even the JCB at the end of our village was struggling to get thru...the road out the village was a single track with massive 2 meter drifts in places for about 3 or 4 weeks amazing...some more of that would suit me this winter....

Not quite 2 years since we had decent snowfall. I know that god shall not let us down this winter :-) Or he's in deep trouble!

[picog]

The others read between -3 -4'c and they are inside the tunnels. The land to the left does rise sharply, so it may account for the colder temps. I'll set some more thermo's up at the same site for next time adn see how they all compare.

Did you get the thermometers up CH? It's down to -3C here so it looks like it could be another cold one!

[Bishop Brennan]

I started reminiscing about the January 2013 event earlier, after I posted the icicles picture. A classic example of how the models can very suddenly switch, once they pick up a signal. Also scene of Ian Brown's hilarious 'WTF' post 

 

The March 2013 snowfall was just as memorable, not least because it nipped in the bud this ridiculous notion that, once mid-February is passed, it becomes virtually impossible for snow to remain on the ground for any length of time due to the power of the sun. Utter tripe, but it was wheeled out with tiresome predictability by the usual suspects in the Model Discussion thread.

 

Bish

[Snowyowl9]

Fine, here's the proof!

 

This thermometer is absolutely spot on and has been tested against the other 8 we have on site.

Plus the frost lay the whole day long with temps only getting up to almost 3'c.

Also enclosed a video of the bottom end of the project and you can't tell me you'd get this level of frost from -2'c?

 

the temps this morning around 10am

 

The frost at 3.30pm today.

 

Video of me walking on frozen ground at work at 3.30pm.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=685712661544070&set=vb.100003160282851&type=2&theater

That's interesting I`ve just bought one exactly like that yesterday to go outside to place the other.

Air frosts have been pretty widespread on low ground by the severn as its caught the dailiers,not ours though.

I`ve still got the digital one.

[Midlands Ice Age]

Morning Midlanders,

 

I face the M42 / A42/ M1 up to Sheffield today so glad to see a fine day.

 

Minimum of 0.4C overnight with a slight shower just damping the surfaces.(0.6mm fell).

 

Be came cloudy towards dawn and the temperature went up to 4.0C.

 

It has cleared somewhat now and the temperature has dropped to 3.8C. Just shows the effect of adiabatic cooling at this time of year, and how much strength the sun does have at this time of year.

 

PS Rapidly becoming cloudy again now.

 

MIA

[I remember Atlantic 252]

looks like a bleedin' cheshire gap day, no washout yet, but expecting the rain soon