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Model Output Discussion - 31/10/2014 and Beyond


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Posted
  • Location: Batley, West Yorkshire
  • Weather Preferences: Heat and Snow
  • Location: Batley, West Yorkshire

I'm dreaming of, if we discount the ECM because it's on it's own at day 10, then surely we discount the GEFs at day 16? If the GEFS at day 16 showed a raging Easterly would you believe it?

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Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL

the first charts i view every morning are the anomaly charts, because as john holmes has championed, when they are in consistent agreement then they are pretty accurate (about 80% i think the figue was) of being right 6-14 days ahead.

 

so

 

attachicon.gif610day.03.gif attachicon.gif814day.03.gif

 

attachicon.giftest8.gif

 

are in and have been in consistent agreement, so charts like these from the gfs and ecm @t168 look accurate.

 

attachicon.gifRpgfs1682.gif attachicon.gifRecm1682.gif

 

further out though is where both models struggle, and this chart the ecm 12z @t240 simply cannot happen as long as the anomaly charts stay as they are. nor do they currently allow for a deep easterly. they might change, but until they do....

 

attachicon.gifRecm2402.gif

 

the gfs in deep fi continues to suggest highs to our northeast

 

attachicon.gifRtavn3842.gif

 

but as the uppers show, even cold looking surface charts often arent. (i use the 850's instead of surface... they do give a clearer picture of likely temp profiles)

ignore the agreeing anomaly charts at your peril....

Mushy, those anomaly charts show above average heights to the North of the Uk though, do they not?. This would what we should expect if we want a Northerly or Easterly?

In terms of the ECM consistency, I have never known the ECM to be wrong after so many runs showing the same thing. Yes, the ECM throws up the odd BOOM chart, but normally a one run thing.

As ever, more runs required.

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Posted
  • Location: st albans
  • Location: st albans

Not much to note on the ECM ens mean and spreads. More of the same within t240. The spreads indicate a desire to drive the Atlantic depressions on a more southerly track though the 850's are not showing any deep cold headed in our direction as yet. if may be that the ECM op is barking up the right tree, but just a bit too progressive at this juncture. We could be looking at quite a large area of cold high heights across from Iceland to scandi. On the other hand ......

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Posted
  • Location: West Sussex
  • Weather Preferences: Extreme cold & snow
  • Location: West Sussex

Not much to note on the ECM ens mean and spreads. More of the same within t240. The spreads indicate a desire to drive the Atlantic depressions on a more southerly track though the 850's are not showing any deep cold headed in our direction as yet. if may be that the ECM op is barking up the right tree, but just a bit too progressive at this juncture. We could be looking at quite a large area of cold high heights across from Iceland to scandi. On the other hand ......

Whilst we are stuck in very mild uppers being drawn up fron Africa 'eh BA.... :D:mellow:

Rtavn3002.gifRtavn3842.gifRecm1202.gifRecm1442.gif

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Posted
  • Location: North East Cotswolds, 232m, 761feet ASL
  • Location: North East Cotswolds, 232m, 761feet ASL

I think we just need to see what this evenings ECM chart throws up to see where it's going, if it trends away from NB again then maybe not so good. The next GFS rolls soon, fingers crossed this goes more towards last nights ECM

Edited by Polar Maritime
To remove off topic material.
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Posted
  • Location: Derbyshire Peak District South Pennines Middleton & Smerrill Tops 305m (1001ft) asl.
  • Location: Derbyshire Peak District South Pennines Middleton & Smerrill Tops 305m (1001ft) asl.

Can we please leave the Meto outlook for another thread.

 

Thanks, PM.

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Posted
  • Location: Nuneaton,Warks. 128m asl
  • Weather Preferences: Snow then clear and frosty.
  • Location: Nuneaton,Warks. 128m asl

Well no real change this morning.

Ecm op. still intent on a easterly later on but looking at all the means it does look like it overdoes the Greenland ridging.

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/ecmwf.php?ech=240&mode=1&map=0&type=1&archive=0

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gefs_cartes.php?code=21&ech=240&mode=0&carte=0

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/cmc_cartes.php?code=21&ech=240&mode=0&carte=0

The block to the east is simply keeping Atlantic lows just to our west feeding in bands of rain or showers.

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Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

Can you put a big arrow on the organised PV please Knocker?

 

BFTP

I was looking N. Russia at T240 BFTP. Am I being over enthusiastic? Perhaps indications of would have been more appropriate.

Edited by knocker
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Posted
  • Location: Solihull, West Midlands. - 131 m asl
  • Weather Preferences: Sun, Snow and Storms
  • Location: Solihull, West Midlands. - 131 m asl

Big differences in opinions in here this morning.

All models agree up to about +100.

The GFS (as knocker alludes) builds a large low anonamly over NE Canada. This has major impacts on the GFS and GFS(p) suites, in that it prevents the high pressure regressing back into Greenland.

It therefore goes on to keep the high back into NE and Central Europe. Hence the UK stays under the Atlantic influence. All logical.

However the good news for coldies is as Cloud10 alludes - look what happens to Moscow and Eatern Europe.

At the other end of the scale is ECM yesterday, which has full retrogression to Scandi allowing the polar vortex to approach us from the North. THe ECM(0) backs down from this Super progressive run, but still ends up with a decent easterly. My reading of the other models is that all of them (except GEM) tend towards and are not far away from the ECM(0) solution.

The GEM starts of on the track of a full blown easterly (ala ECM), but collapses the high to the north under the force of the atlantic low pressure coming out of the US.

So I make it that once again it will come down as to has modelled the NE USA and Newfoundland correctly. Why is it so critical year in and year out to our weather?

MIA

Edited by Midlands Ice Age
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Posted
  • Location: Reigate Hill
  • Weather Preferences: Anything
  • Location: Reigate Hill

I was looking N. Russia at T240 BFTP. Am I being over enthusiastic?

We are talking about trends in FI and of course it is going to take time for the PV to become a full on Arctic Low again, that is if it does. Looking at the D16 charts have obvious caveats, but the GEFS are suggesting removal of high latitude heights and a gradual connection of the lower heights scattered around the high latitude. At the moment the liklehood is there will be two lobes of the PV and where they settle could dictate the medium term outlook.

Of course with the ex Tropical storm in the mix we won't really know for a few more days and we have to judge this situation on the history and bias of each models till they resolve it themselves.

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Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

We are talking about trends in FI and of course it is going to take time for the PV to become a full on Arctic Low again, that is if it does. Looking at the D16 charts have obvious caveats, but the GEFS are suggesting removal of high latitude heights and a gradual connection of the lower heights scattered around the high latitude. At the moment the liklehood is there will be two lobes of the PV and where they settle could dictate the medium term outlook.

Of course with the ex Tropical storm in the mix we won't really know for a few more days and we have to judge this situation on the history and bias of each models till they resolve it themselves.

 

Noted ido. Looking at the ECM ens for the Arctic it does appear more 'organised' with one lobe from T240 but as you say certainly a bit away from definitive answers.

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Posted
  • Location: Derbyshire
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and Warmth
  • Location: Derbyshire

Big differences in opinions in here this morning.

All models agree up to about +100.

The GFS (as knocker alludes) builds a large low anonamly over NE Canada. This has major impacts on the GFS and GFS(p) suites, in that it prevents the high pressure regressing back into Greenland.

It therefore goes on to keep the high back into NE and Central Europe. Hence the UK stays under the Atlantic influence. All logical.

However the good news for coldies is as Cloud10 alludes - look what happens to Moscow and Eatern Europe.

At the other end of the scale is ECM yesterday, which has full retrogression to Scandi allowing the polar vortex to approach us from the North. THe ECM(0) backs down from this Super progressive run, but still ends up with a decent easterly. My reading of the other models is that all of them (except GEM) tend towards and are not far away from the ECM(0) solution.

The GEM starts of on the track of a full blown easterly (ala ECM), but collapses the high to the north under the force of the atlantic low pressure coming out of the US.

So I make it that once again it will come down as to has modelled the NE USA and Newfoundland correctly. Why is it so critical year in and year out to our weather?

MIA

 

 

But the easterly isn't cold is it or am I reading it wrong ? What would be the point with the colder air all up North ?

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Posted
  • Location: Solihull, West Midlands. - 131 m asl
  • Weather Preferences: Sun, Snow and Storms
  • Location: Solihull, West Midlands. - 131 m asl

 

But the easterly isn't cold is it or am I reading it wrong ? What would be the point with the colder air all up North ?

 

The surface air over Western Russia is already quite cold.(for us!) at about 0-5C max during the day.

The air will rapidly cool further over there under clear skies at this time of year. It will then start to spread towards us. How long would it take? A week or so. I would not expect bitterly cold weather as soon as the easterly sets in, but again it would be a step in the right direction in coolig down Europe. The ECM(12) run would have given a quick route to cold.

MIA

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Posted
  • Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire
  • Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire

After the last two ECM runs, I have noticed the control turns unsettled and not particularly cold. Trying to piece it all together, it looks as though there will be a cool easterly in a weeks time. We then see a push of very cold air in the Svalbard area push south into northern Scandinavia. This push doesn't make it to our shores as low pressure in the atlantic wins the race and brings in more unsettled weather. Great building blocks though in terms of very cold air building to our north east.

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Posted
  • Location: Weston-S-Mare North Somerset
  • Weather Preferences: Hot sunny , cold and snowy, thunderstorms
  • Location: Weston-S-Mare North Somerset

I think all we can glean from the models this morning is uncertainty as is usually the case this time of year (well any time of year when looking at 7+day ahead) but more so now as the charts are scrutinised far more.

 

More runs are needed........ and a lot of patience

 

In the mean time, plenty of rain to get though

 

ukprec.pngukprec.pngukprec.png

 

 

Temps look to remain around average with a touch of frost for the North early next week before turning distinctly average for all there after.

Edited by SteveB
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Posted
  • Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire
  • Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire

After the last two ECM runs, I have noticed the control turns unsettled and not particularly cold. Trying to piece it all together, it looks as though there will be a cool easterly in a weeks time. We then see a push of very cold air in the Svalbard area push south into northern Scandinavia. This push doesn't make it to our shores as low pressure in the atlantic wins the race and brings in more unsettled weather. Great building blocks though in terms of very cold air building to our north east.

Just to add to my post - the 06z GFS Parallel shows exactly what I have explained above.

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Good post Steve

The PRHW is the new gfs

I want to know what the PRX is?

At day 10 it is also level pegging with the ECM

Anyone know. Can't find anything via google.

 

 

Yes, I wish we still had the regional results for the GFS... its sad they went....

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Posted
  • Location: Reigate Hill
  • Weather Preferences: Anything
  • Location: Reigate Hill

The D16 from the GFS parallel highlights the trend that has been showing in the GEFS for a much more organised PV:

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfse_cartes.php?ech=204&code=code&mode=0&mode3h=0&runpara=1&carte=1&runpara=1

It may all change but there is a clear signal.

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