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Clegg Vs Farage: Europe Debate

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Lloyds and Subway helping UKIP's cause no end, and its not just mud slinging but eggs as well now!

 

I can't wait for those elections, first time I have been up for one for many years.

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Easy if you want to keep your EU Citizenship go to France or Germany. Simples.

I doubt very much you will miss it or even notice it's gone in reality.

That's not the point, though it is something I have thought about - I am writing this from France at the moment but 'er indoors won't stay here all the time.

 

2nd problem - if UK does come out it is likely that we will end up with a devaluing pound against the Euro, so it will cost more to live, especially if we end up with the same type of governments as we had from the 60's through to the advent of Lady Margaret, so it is not so simple after all.

 

It may also be that sympathetic EU states may allow UK Nationals to take up dual nationality.

 

As to whether I would miss or notice it, this would depend on the terms the UK negotiates with the EU - let's face it, if they wanted to be nasty, they could issue any number of controls.

 

But fingers crossed it will never come to that, however I suspect Nigel is the type of person who will fail to realise that 'no' means 'no'.

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That's not the point, though it is something I have thought about - I am writing this from France at the moment but 'er indoors won't stay here all the time.

 

2nd problem - if UK does come out it is likely that we will end up with a devaluing pound against the Euro, so it will cost more to live, especially if we end up with the same type of governments as we had from the 60's through to the advent of Lady Margaret, so it is not so simple after all.

 

It may also be that sympathetic EU states may allow UK Nationals to take up dual nationality.

 

As to whether I would miss or notice it, this would depend on the terms the UK negotiates with the EU - let's face it, if they wanted to be nasty, they could issue any number of controls.

 

But fingers crossed it will never come to that, however I suspect Nigel is the type of person who will fail to realise that 'no' means 'no'.

If it comes to a referendum do you think the UK government will stop those of us currently living in the rest of the EU a vote. I'm not sure what exactly the legal position would be  because essentially if the UK stopped us from voting they would  possibly make us ex EU citizens without actually voting for that.

 

If we look at the Scottish referendum that's a bit different because a vote Yes is not a clear out of the EU, its probably just a re-negotiation of some terms, in that waiting period Scots would still IMO be in the EU.

 

Even if the UK votes out apparently they still wouldn't be able to leave without 2 years notice, I do hope that when push comes to shove people will realize that the real problem isn't the EU but their own homegrown politicians.

 

With the economy recovering perhaps people will feel less inclined to scapegoat the EU.

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Lloyds and Subway helping UKIP's cause no end, and its not just mud slinging but eggs as well now!

 

I can't wait for those elections, first time I have been up for one for many years.

I would say vote with the wallet and your foot, do not use them, simple.

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If it comes to a referendum do you think the UK government will stop those of us currently living in the rest of the EU a vote. I'm not sure what exactly the legal position would be  because essentially if the UK stopped us from voting they would  possibly make us ex EU citizens without actually voting for that.

 

If we look at the Scottish referendum that's a bit different because a vote Yes is not a clear out of the EU, its probably just a re-negotiation of some terms, in that waiting period Scots would still IMO be in the EU.

 

Even if the UK votes out apparently they still wouldn't be able to leave without 2 years notice, I do hope that when push comes to shove people will realize that the real problem isn't the EU but their own homegrown politicians.

 

With the economy recovering perhaps people will feel less inclined to scapegoat the EU.

Nick,

 

You have highlighted some interesting points - my first thought went to the coming Scottish Referendum in September and as far as being franchised, from my quick look at the conditions, it appeared that one should be on an electoral register - arrangements being made in respect of those young persons not yet registered - and this implies a condition of residence with people from the EU and Commonwealth being entitled to vote.

 

At the same time there are many Scots living outside their home country but are Scots by birth and upbringing - does this mean that because they are not residing in Scotland they will be debarred from voting in this election? I don't know, perhaps we need SS, who is close to this matter, to let us know.

 

My first thoughts are that it would be unfair should it be that they are not registered as living in Scotland, though I expect there would be special arrangements made for Scots who are in the armed services but overseas. This would mean that a decision could be taken, affecting their Nationality, tax position, pension and perhaps a whole host of other things I have not thought of without them having the opportunity to take part in the decision making progress.

 

Likewise, if we do eventually have a referendum on whether or not to stay within the EU, is there going to be a similar condition of residence? If so there would probably being many thousands of ex pats living in Europe and elsewhere denied a say as to the future of their home country. There are probably quite a number of ways in which this could affect people, such as their tax and pension circumstances, together a possible curtailment of unrestricted travel within the EU. It may be that someone such as yourself may be able to apply for French Citizenship but I would have thought it would have meant a relaxing of standards in the case of some people. I would expect some states would be more sympathetic than others in allowing Euro/Brits a dual nationality.

 

But this does raise a serious question of a decision being made in which the ex pat has not had an opportunity to express his wish via a ballot box, which again hardly seems fair.

 

Looking at it from the more positive side however and given the length of time this is likely to be ahead some common sense could have kicked in by then, especially with a hopefully improving economy.

 

There is not very much doubt that even if the Scots do devolve they are pretty keen to be in the EU as an individual nation - I suppose that us Euro/Brits could go and live up there if necessary - the problem then would be the short dark days of winter with a generally wetter and cooler climate.

 

As an aside to this, it came up on question time this evening that a motion put forward in Strasbourg, relating to the UK budget or contributions, the UKIP MEPs still declined to vote even though a positive decision would have been beneficial to the UK.

Edited by mike Meehan
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Thanks for the reply Mike. In terms of  an EU referendum I think its harder for the UK to exclude those currently living in the rest of the EU than the Scottish referendum because an in/out referendum leaves no doubt that the vote will lead to a loss of EU rights. In Scotland a vote Yes won't definitely lead to that. Legally I think there would be a challenge if the UK tried to make it just for current residents.

Edited by nick sussex

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With regard to the franchise for the Scottish Independence Referendum, the criteria is the same as for Scottish Parliament elections - except that it's expanded to include 16 and 17 year olds (which the Scottish Government can not currently do for parliamentary elections, though it is SNP and Lib Dem policy). It is residency based and I don't really see any viable or acceptable alternative approach, the referendum is about the Scottish Parliament so it makes sense to link the two.

The franchise for UK General Elections is not as wide as that for Scottish Parliament ones. However expat Brits can vote in UK General Elections for upto 15 years after leaving the UK - not sure how it works in terms of what constituency you vote in (as these may well change over time). Given an EU in/out vote is in a way about the Westminster Parliament it seems likely it would have the same voter criteria - ie not the strict residency one used for the Scottish Parliament / referendum.

Edited by skifreak
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Thanks for that SF, it clears up a little what was seeming to be muddy waters - I do know that overseas French Nationals can vote in their Presidential elections. My French teacher used to go to the French Embassy in London for this purpose.

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Thanks for that SF, it clears up a little what was seeming to be muddy waters - I do know that overseas French Nationals can vote in their Presidential elections. My French teacher used to go to the French Embassy in London for this purpose.

 

 

Their have a MP n London it is France 6th biggest city, Yes a MP for French people in French parliament, Representing a city in another "sovereign nation" 

Edited by lfcdude

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Gpt to admit I'm a bit baffled as to why people go from UK Politicians are no good so therefore if we were governed by the EU they must be better. Err no we're still be voting the same set of people in but they will have even less say and influence as to what is good for local people and the UK when they sit in a Euro Parliament.

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The way I see it Pit, is that we should have the layer in Strasbourg dealing with matters which affect the EU and its people as a whole, then we should have the national parliaments dealing with matters which affect the different national interests and right down to the county (etc), borough elections and parish councils which have an effect locally.

 

As it is we only get a turn out of something like 30% for most of the elections in the UK so the people who don't vote only have themselves to blame if they do not get the type of government they want but at the same time there are many who, no doubt consider that by voting against the trend in a particular area, that their vote would be wasted in our FPTP system, so they don't bother, or as may be likely with the coming Euro Elections, they cast a protest vote to indicate their dissatisfaction with government policies.

 

Enter UKIP, who highlight particular areas, such as immigration, power being wrested from the national government in such a manner that it makes them well noticed and at first glance an ideal vehicle for such a protest vote.

 

But it seems, as I am just recently finding out, that such a vote in the Euro Elections is wasted because the UKIP Euro MEP's go to Strasbourg and either decline to vote at all, or consistently vote blanket 'no's', take no part in the various committees and when they do deign to speak, it is usually to attack the very function which is providing their bread and butter. In my view, it is a complete waste of time voting for these people in a Euro Election because they simply do not carry out the functions of representing Britain's interests or furthering the business of the parliament as a whole.

 

Instead we end up with a man, grinning inanely, fag in one hand, pint pot in the other, criticising the set up and insulting other members whilst offering nothing in the way of any constructive ideas - wow, that must be one great big ego trip for him, well paid at the tax payer's expense, who do not appear in any shape or form to be getting a good deal out of this,

Edited by mike Meehan

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Their have a MP n London it is France 6th biggest city, Yes a MP for French people in French parliament, Representing a city in another "sovereign nation" 

 

Any Brit living abroad can vote in our general elections. All the French have done is create a 'northern Europe' constituency for theirs rather than whatever we do.

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Their have a MP n London it is France 6th biggest city, Yes a MP for French people in French parliament, Representing a city in another "sovereign nation" 

 

 

Any Brit living abroad can vote in our general elections. All the French have done is create a 'northern Europe' constituency for theirs rather than whatever we do.

I see nothing wrong with that, it gives people an opportunity to have the benefit of representation whilst abroad - democracy should be inclusive anyway and after all these people pay taxes to the French Government - seems to have a ring of the Boston Tea Party :)

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/01/french-expats-vote-parliamentary-elections

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If it comes to a referendum do you think the UK government will stop those of us currently living in the rest of the EU a vote. I'm not sure what exactly the legal position would be  because essentially if the UK stopped us from voting they would  possibly make us ex EU citizens without actually voting for that.

 

If we look at the Scottish referendum that's a bit different because a vote Yes is not a clear out of the EU, its probably just a re-negotiation of some terms, in that waiting period Scots would still IMO be in the EU.

 

Even if the UK votes out apparently they still wouldn't be able to leave without 2 years notice, I do hope that when push comes to shove people will realize that the real problem isn't the EU but their own homegrown politicians.

 

With the economy recovering perhaps people will feel less inclined to scapegoat the EU.

Don't believe the headlines or the spin Nick, the vast majority of poor people are worse off now than they have ever been and unfortunately they are set to become worse off still. A 5th Q of rising GDP means asbsolutely zilch down the foodbanks, which are now the busiest places of all in most UK towns and cities.

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Don't believe the headlines or the spin Nick, the vast majority of poor people are worse off now than they have ever been and unfortunately they are set to become worse off still. A 5th Q of rising GDP means asbsolutely zilch down the foodbanks, which are now the busiest places of all in most UK towns and cities.

It's a bit like turning an oil tanker though isn't - you put the input into the rudder and the vessel starts to turn, slowly at first then it speeds up - here we have the situation where there are signs of the economy starting to pick up, unemployment is down and average wages have just caught up with inflation.

 

No doubt there are some people poorer which is to be expected with cuts in welfare benefits, but I doubt that they are a majority of the poor people and I expect the people in low paid jobs will not see any real improvement in their standard of living just yet since it will take time for the improvements to affect the whole of society but as we reach a stage where the treasury is paying much less to service its loans that will be extra to pump back into the economy.

 

About 25 to 30 years ago I had a mortgage where the interest rate was 15%, then it started dropping by degrees but I left my repayments the same and over a period of some 10 to 15 years I ended up paying my mortgage off completely, so when the endowment policy eventually matured, this was money for my back pocket.

 

As it was with my circumstances, so it is with the economy - money paid in interest payments is dead money which is not available - unfortunately that financial wizard Brown re-mortgaged so much that it left us with a crippling mill stone.

 

As it is I believe we are going in the right direction and I am quietly confident that as time elapses things will improve subject to no calamities knocking us off track and even if this does happen we should be better placed to ride out the storm than we were in 2010, having reduced our outlays.

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Their have a MP n London it is France 6th biggest city, Yes a MP for French people in French parliament, Representing a city in another "sovereign nation" 

And this impacts negatively on your life, or the life of this country in which way?

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It's a bit like turning an oil tanker though isn't - you put the input into the rudder and the vessel starts to turn, slowly at first then it speeds up - here we have the situation where there are signs of the economy starting to pick up, unemployment is down and average wages have just caught up with inflation.

 

No doubt there are some people poorer which is to be expected with cuts in welfare benefits, but I doubt that they are a majority of the poor people and I expect the people in low paid jobs will not see any real improvement in their standard of living just yet since it will take time for the improvements to affect the whole of society but as we reach a stage where the treasury is paying much less to service its loans that will be extra to pump back into the economy.

 

About 25 to 30 years ago I had a mortgage where the interest rate was 15%, then it started dropping by degrees but I left my repayments the same and over a period of some 10 to 15 years I ended up paying my mortgage off completely, so when the endowment policy eventually matured, this was money for my back pocket.

 

As it was with my circumstances, so it is with the economy - money paid in interest payments is dead money which is not available - unfortunately that financial wizard Brown re-mortgaged so much that it left us with a crippling mill stone.

 

As it is I believe we are going in the right direction and I am quietly confident that as time elapses things will improve subject to no calamities knocking us off track and even if this does happen we should be better placed to ride out the storm than we were in 2010, having reduced our outlays.

Unemployment isn't down, the figures have just been manipulated to make it appear so.  Most people who are made redundant do no automatically qualify now for unemployment benefit and therefore don't show up in the figures. Add to that all the schemes this govt have devised to keep people off the register without earning a living wage (including the 1.5 million currently on zero hours contracts with no guarantee of work at all) and you start to get a feel for reality, rather than the fantasy you are being fed.

Edited by shedhead
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Damned lies and statistics - you can make them work anyway you want can't you

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All the focus is on how much UKIP's impact will have on, in particular the Tories and less so Labour and Lib Dems come the Euro elections.

What seems to be overlooked is how much impact are they are going to have on the BNP vote? The BNP returned 2 Euro MEPs in 2009. Are UKIP going to wipe out the BNP?

You hardly hear about the BNP these days.

Edited by Weather-history

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You hardly hear about the BNP these days.

Thank the light for that too, nasty party, I have no time for people who are racist, homophobic or any other kind of hatred against another person just because they do not like their race, colour, creed etc.

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Thank the light for that too, nasty party, I have no time for people who are racist, homophobic or any other kind of hatred against another person just because they do not like their race, colour, creed etc.

Ditto, but I also have no time for people who claim to love living in a democracy, yet stifle free speech at every opportunity when it suits.  Like it or not the BNP are a bona fida political party and therefore have as much right as the next to promote their agenda.  As so called 'free citizens' we don't have to like what they say, we don't even have to listen to what they say, but if we wish to live in a democracy we do have to afford them the right to say what they want to say.  Sometimes I feel the lack of fair exposure to minority parties actually works in their favour, esepcially with the BNP, who if able to fully espouse their views and opinions would no doubt alienate far more people than they attract - the old adage 'give someone enough rope and they will hang themselves' very much applies here imo.

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