Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
March Blizzard

Holocaust denial, a crime?

Recommended Posts

Although it shows on obvious lack of grip on reality, I'm not sure it warrants a criminal offence.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It rather depends on how you interpret the motives of the denier. It is widely accepted, and I agree, that it is anti-semitic and thus racist,

 

For example according to Walter Reich, psychiatrist and then senior scholar at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, one-time director of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, and now professor of international affairs at George Washington University.

 

 

The primary motivation for most deniers is anti-Semitism, and for them the Holocaust is an infuriatingly inconvenient fact of history. After all, the Holocaust has generally been recognized as one of the most terrible crimes that ever took place, and surely the very emblem of evil in the modern age. If that crime was a direct result of anti-Semitism taken to its logical end, then anti-Semitism itself, even when expressed in private conversation, is inevitably discredited among most people. What better way to rehabilitate anti-Semitism, make anti-Semitic arguments seem once again respectable in civilized discourse and even make it acceptable for governments to pursue anti-Semitic policies than by convincing the world that the great crime for which anti-Semitism was blamed simply never happened— indeed, that it was nothing more than a frame-up invented by the Jews, and propagated by them through their control of the media? What better way, in short, to make the world safe again for anti-Semitism than by denying the Holocaust?[

 

So yes I think it should be a criminal offense.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial

Edited by knocker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think if it was a made a criminal offence it would be a further demise of free speech so no.

 

Personally I don't deny the holocaust happened but I am dubious as to how many Jews actually died. I guess we won't ever fully know the true figure though.

Some people make the point of more military soldiers died on the battlefield than people died in any gassing camps. Again it's a foggy one to judge.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

No, we have a long tradition of freedom of speech - one we start making criminal offences in saying certain things, there is no telling where it will stop, so my view is that it would be better not to set such a precedent in the first place - after all once the State get themselves in a position whereby they can criminalise what we say (which they already do to an extent under the relations act), it could lead to a downward path in our freedoms - it is not lost upon me that many of the extreme regimes have used strict censorship in an effort to control their populations and that is a road I would not wish to travel down, in fact in this country it has already gone too far with the political correctness.

Further I would say that with so much information available these days the holocaust deniers would put themselves into the same sort of class as the 'flat earthers' who extremely few people take seriously.

Edited by mike Meehan
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think we need a blanket law against Holocaust denial- there are already laws against acts of expression that are likely to incite racial hatred/abuse, and surely the troublesome cases of Holocaust denial will be well covered by those laws already.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I don't deny the holocaust happened but I am dubious as to how many Jews actually died. I guess we won't ever fully know the true figure though.

Some people make the point of more military soldiers died on the battlefield than people died in any gassing camps. Again it's a foggy one to judge.

 

Considering the exhaustive studies carried out by many, many historians over the years, including evidence from people who survived the camps and others your doubts on based on what? Around 900,000 were slaughtered in Trblinka alone.

 

I think the analogy between holocaust deniers and flat-earthers ridiculous. Just read a detailed account of Auschwitz and the experiments on children.

 

And just to add our treatment of German Jews fleeing Nazi persecution in the 30s was appalling. No sign of left wing softly softly approach there. And that's well documented.

 

Come back David Irving all is forgiven.

 

Exclusive: David Irving - the hate that dare not speak its name

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/exclusive-david-irving--the-hate-that-dare-not-speak-its-name-8792411.html

Edited by knocker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although in theory we have a right of freedom of speech political correctness is rapidly making inroads into this. This is another example. Making it a criminal offensense for having a crack pot theory or being in denial is crazy and shouldn't happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although in theory we have a right of freedom of speech political correctness is rapidly making inroads into this. This is another example. Making it a criminal offensense for having a crack pot theory or being in denial is crazy and shouldn't happen.

 

But then some don't consider anti-semitism a crackpot theory seeing as it's been around in Europe for centuries culminating with the holocaust. This has nowt to do with the PC brigade. That's rapidly becoming an excuse to cover a multitude of sins and it won't wash.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No way should there be legislation. Free speech is already being eroded. Next will be free thought and I think we are already going down that road too.

 

It's obvious the holocaust was up there with the worst crimes in the history of mankind. Anyone who denies can quickly be argued to defeat, by anyone half competent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Talking in general here - Being labelled a potential criminal for perhaps having a different opinion, thought or opposing ideals?Seems to defeat the object....

 

A different opinion based on falsifying archive material. Why would you do that without some ulterior motive? An Oswald Mosley syndrome perhaps is the opposing ideals.

Edited by knocker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No way should there be legislation. Free speech is already being eroded. Next will be free thought and I think we are already going down that road too.

 

It's obvious the holocaust was up there with the worst crimes in the history of mankind. Anyone who denies can quickly be argued to defeat, by anyone half competent.

 

Actually that doesn't bother them as long as they can spread the gospel of anti-semitism. Irving is still spreading his poison. And don't believe there aren't people out there who aren't glad to take it on board. Just glance at history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seeing as I'm in a minority of one here I take it all you free speech lovers would be quite happy if The Protocols of The Elders of Zion was republished?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seeing as I'm in a minority of one here I take it all you free speech lovers would be quite happy if The Protocols of The Elders of Zion was republished?

 

Wow, your posts do sometimes appear to be in the extremity of silliness.

 

You say Free Speech Lovers like that's a bad thing ?

 

Saying because we have Free Speech, we would also be happy if The Protocols of The Elders of Zion was republished ? Give me a break, rather get serious with your posts or don't post at all.

 

You seem to be in the bracket of "If you don't agree with my opinions you must be a Racist/Gay Basher/Antisemite etc etc and then give a complete daft reason for it.

 

Do YOU agree with free speech? Or would you rather live like North Korea / Russia where everything is dictated for you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, your posts do sometimes appear to be in the extremity of silliness.

 

You say Free Speech Lovers like that's a bad thing ?

 

Saying because we have Free Speech, we would also be happy if The Protocols of The Elders of Zion was republished ? Give me a break, rather get serious with your posts or don't post at all.

 

You seem to be in the bracket of "If you don't agree with my opinions you must be a Racist/Gay Basher/Antisemite etc etc and then give a complete daft reason for it.

 

Do YOU agree with free speech? Or would you rather live like North Korea / Russia where everything is dictated for you?

 

Fine I won't post at all which is bit of a relief but I will end where I started with the daft reason. And remember at least one poster is a part holocaust denier. Adios.

 

 

The primary motivation for most deniers is anti-Semitism, and for them the Holocaust is an infuriatingly inconvenient fact of history. After all, the Holocaust has generally been recognized as one of the most terrible crimes that ever took place, and surely the very emblem of evil in the modern age. If that crime was a direct result of anti-Semitism taken to its logical end, then anti-Semitism itself, even when expressed in private conversation, is inevitably discredited among most people. What better way to rehabilitate anti-Semitism, make anti-Semitic arguments seem once again respectable in civilized discourse and even make it acceptable for governments to pursue anti-Semitic policies than by convincing the world that the great crime for which anti-Semitism was blamed simply never happened— indeed, that it was nothing more than a frame-up invented by the Jews, and propagated by them through their control of the media? What better way, in short, to make the world safe again for anti-Semitism than by denying the Holocaust?[

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

And remember at least one poster is a part holocaust denier

 

Who is this poster ? What are you taking about ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holocaust denial is a criminal offence in many European countries. Should it be one in the UK? If so, why?

 

Discuss...

 

Like all "hate crimes" i think there could be a case for community service or a fine if the intent is malicious rather than simply based on ignorance but there should certainly be no prison sentence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seeing as I'm in a minority of one here I take it all you free speech lovers would be quite happy if The Protocols of The Elders of Zion was republished?

 

It's already available and i don't see the problem. Factual or not (for the record i don't believe jews plan to take over the world) it's simply a book whether it was used as propaganda or not. If we're going to start banning books for being apparently anti-semetic then we should ban Karl Marx whose communist manifesto has been used to inflict far more damage on the world than anti-semitism ever did.

 

An interesting article here..

 

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jan/09/mein-kampf-ebook-bestseller-adolf-hitler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holocaust deniers, (and even people who question the events, given the huge amount of historical analysis that has been devoted to this), are clearly deluded ignorant fools. Whilst their position is both distasteful and ridiculous, to criminalise them for being deluded ignorant fools is probably a bit much. Anyway, isn't there already a 'hate crime' criminal offence, so if someone can be proved to be using holocaust denial to support actions designed to stir up racial hatred they can already be prosecuted. From the Home Office website:

 

Legislation has been in place for a number of years to protect victims from hate crimes, including offences for those who intend to stir up racial hatred, commit racially and religiously aggravated offences or engage in racist chanting at football matches.

We have also introduced new criminal offences and enhanced sentences in recent years to reflect the seriousness of hate crime. These include enhanced sentencing and stirring up hatred towards other groups on the grounds of religion and sexual orientation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I'd be against criminalising it. We see bizarre and deluded opinions all the time, doesn't mean that the person spouting them is inherently bad (or in this case, anti-Semitic). Some people can just be ignorant and easily influenced by baseless conspiracy nonsense, it happens unfortunately.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I general I accept that but how does it apply to people like David Irving? Not the he's very active these days but for a time he certainly was.

 

 

Irving, 75, is justly paranoid about security. During a career spanning 50 years and more than 30 books, he has emerged from relative respectability to become a notorious revisionist historian, and a target for anti-fascist demonstrators. In 2000, he lost a £2m libel action against the US historian Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books. The judge ruled that Irving “is an active Holocaust denier; that he is anti-Semitic and racistâ€.

 

Five years later, Irving was sentenced to three years in an Austrian prison for “trivialising, grossly playing down and denying the Holocaustâ€. He was released after 13 months and banned from returning to the country. He has also been banned from Canada, Italy and Germany.

Edited by knocker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I general I accept that but how does it apply to people like David Irving? Not the he's very active these days but for a time he certainly was.

 

Why stop at the holocaust then? What about people trivialising the Irish famine and the British role in it? Or the slaughter of the Native Americans? Or the Rwandan genocide? Or any number of atrocities?

 

The odd vile person may slip through the net, but at least those who are simply ignorant/stupid/easily led on won't get punished. Legislating for something like this could be the start of a long slippery slope that's very much open to abuse, and one I don't think we're ready to go down yet.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why stop at the holocaust then? What about people trivialising the Irish famine and the British role in it? Or the slaughter of the Native Americans? Or the Rwandan genocide? Or any number of atrocities?

 

The odd vile person may slip through the net, but at least those who are simply ignorant/stupid/easily led on won't get punished. Legislating for something like this could be the start of a long slippery slope that's very much open to abuse, and one I don't think we're ready to go down yet.

 

I didn't address the other issues because the thread title was specific to holocaust denial with it's extra dimension of anti-semitism. In my IMHO the cover up and the strange case of the missing archives regarding the British atrocities in Kenya is appalling but unfortunately it's a bit late to bring anyone to book for that apart from the government. I'm not aware of anyone trivialising the Irish famine, rather the opposite in fact, emphasing it was one of the blackest periods of the Empire and there were a few. Certainly applies to any recent history I've read on the subject.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Spring has sprung: Warm sunshine today and more to come this week

    At least the weather's doing its best to cheer things up in these difficult times, as spring arrives in earnest. While there'll be a few hiccups on the way, the coming week also looks fine and warm at times, particularly over England and Wales. Read the full update here

    Netweather forecasts
    Netweather forecasts
    Latest weather updates from Netweather

    Spring warmth and sunshine this weekend but we've got to stay at home

    In normal times we'd be talking about the excellent timing of the sunshine and warmth coming through at the weekend. But of course,a0these aren't normal times, so even though temperatures could get to 20-21c in places tomorrow, we're all going to have to enjoy it from home. Read the full update here

    Netweather forecasts
    Netweather forecasts
    Latest weather updates from Netweather 1
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...