Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
shedhead

Syrian Systematic Torture And Execution Of 11,000 People 'Like Nazi Death Camps'

Recommended Posts

Another hideous and very disturbing report to come out of Syria.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/01/21/syria-torture-execution_n_4635434.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cukt4%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D238056

 

 

Is this perhaps the final piece of the 'excuse jigsaw' required by the west to initialise military action?  Please discuss.

Edited by shedhead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a surgical strike to take out Assad and his extremely dodgy brother would be desirable, if very unlikely to achieve without other casualties. That is without my caveat below.

 

It should always be borne in mind though imho, is that our worst enemies are the jihadists and if the death of the Assads gave them any sort of promotion, then it's not worth it.

 

Our whole strategy should be about giving no quarter to those scum, however it's achieved. Whether it's through getting rid of Assad, aid to the poor and dispossessed, or something else.

 

I've no expertise on the subject and don't have a real answer except I believe the jihadists must not be allowed to gain the support of the masses. We seem to have failed in our strategies against them so far imho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a surgical strike to take out Assad and his extremely dodgy brother would be desirable, if very unlikely to achieve without other casualties. That is without my caveat below.

 

It should always be borne in mind though imho, is that our worst enemies are the jihadists and if the death of the Assads gave them any sort of promotion, then it's not worth it.

 

Our whole strategy should be about giving no quarter to those scum, however it's achieved. Whether it's through getting rid of Assad, aid to the poor and dispossessed, or something else.

 

I've no expertise on the subject and don't have a real answer except I believe the jihadists must not be allowed to gain the support of the masses. We seem to have failed in our strategies against them so far imho.

Indeed, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he bedded down in a childrens hospital every night...just in case of such an eventuality.

 

On balance I'd suggest the reports are genuine and probably something the US/West have known for some time. However once you public get to know it becomes far more difficult to ignore, so all options are probably back on the table now, with both Obama and Dave likely to be incandescent that this has got out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the comments on that post sums it all up. 

"While we should absolutely be helping the Syrian people, there have been work/death camps in North Korea for over 50 years. They constantly hold hundreds of thousands of prisoners, including children, held for 3 generations of families, with the most repulsive and disgusting crimes, starved to death over 20 years.

We have had genocide in Africa for the past 10 years, with half a million people killed.

Where is the outcry, the warcry from politicians, over these and many more war crimes??"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he bedded down in a childrens hospital every night...just in case of such an eventuality.

 

On balance I'd suggest the reports are genuine and probably something the US/West have known for some time. However once you public get to know it becomes far more difficult to ignore, so all options are probably back on the table now, with both Obama and Dave likely to be incandescent that this has got out. 

 

I've no doubt they are genuine having listened to one of the authors on the radio this morning but I'm afraid it doesn't essentially alter the position of the west. And remember it's only 60 years ago we did the same to the Kikuyu.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another hideous and very disturbing report to come out of Syria.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/01/21/syria-torture-execution_n_4635434.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cukt4%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D238056

 

 

Is this perhaps the final piece of the 'excuse jigsaw' required by the west to initialise military action?  Please discuss.

 

All i can say is why are any of you suprised. The people in this country live in some naive Utopian world where it's not our problem and they'll agree to peace (despite no incentive since one side is crushing the other). This conflict has displaced 2 million people and is killing people at a rate of around 50,000 per year while we sit back and do nothing despite having the means to bomb him into submission without a single solider on the ground.

 

This is the price of naivety and western pacifism in an unstable and unjust world. I say that Assad is a tyrant and a traitor to his people, he should be charged with crimes against humanity and then removed by force.

 

You may not like the west acting as a police force but the world is dam better for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All i can say is why are any of you suprised. The people in this country live in some naive Utopian world where it's not our problem and they'll agree to peace (despite no incentive since one side is crushing the other). This conflict has displaced 2 million people and is killing people at a rate of around 50,000 per year while we sit back and do nothing despite having the means to bomb him into submission without a single solider on the ground.

 

This is the price of naivety and western pacifism in an unstable and unjust world. I say that Assad is a tyrant and a traitor to his people, he should be charged with crimes against humanity and then removed by force.

 

You may not like the west acting as a police force but the world is dam better for it.

Not sure the families of those left bereaved by 9/11 and other similar atrocities would agree SB, in fact they would probably take a completly opposing view.

 

The problem with assuming the mantle of 'World Police' is assuming you are right and everyone else is wrong; that kind of thinking has historically caused massive problems, it's currently causing massive problems and it will go on causing massive problems in the future.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure the families of those left bereaved by 9/11 and other similar atrocities would agree SB, in fact they would probably take a completly opposing view.

 

The problem with assuming the mantle of 'World Police' is assuming you are right and everyone else is wrong; that kind of thinking has historically caused massive problems, it's currently causing massive problems and it will go on causing massive problems in the future.  

 

What do you mean? The support to invade Afghanistan was significant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted this in the Afghanistan thread but it still applies.

 

Max Hastings in his brilliant new book on WW1 says, "The putative Expeditionary Force was given that designation because nobody knew where abroad it might be deployed - conceivably in India, Africa, the Middle East"

 

He then goes on to say, "Here was a manifestation of a huge, historic British folly, repeated over many centuries including the twenty-first: the adoption of gesture strategy committing small forces as an earnest of good intentions, heedless of their gross inadequacy for the military purpose at hand".

 

.

Edited by knocker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes go in guns blazing the country gets taken over by extremists and guess what will happen. Torture, women beaten refused education. The rebels are even fighting amongst themselves.

The solution will have to be political. Sadly Iranians aren't there in the peace talks as they could have some leverage on the regime.

The cost of the West interfering in the region is getting higher by the day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you mean? The support to invade Afghanistan was significant.

From a strategic standpoint sb, nothing to do with humanitarianism but everything to to with oil I'm afraid, ditto Iraq.

 

When we invade to free the oppressed in almost the entire region of Sub Saharan Africa, Central Africa, China, Tibet, Burma, N Korea, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Zimbabwe etc, etc, etc then I might start to believe it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From a strategic standpoint sb, nothing to do with humanitarianism but everything to to with oil I'm afraid, ditto Iraq.

 

When we invade to free the oppressed in almost the entire region of Sub Saharan Africa, Central Africa, China, Tibet, Burma, N Korea, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Zimbabwe etc, etc, etc then I might start to believe it.

 

In Afghanistan proven reserves were minimal, it was purely a political reaction. The towers were hit, Bush calls for war and vengeance. Your right about Iraq and the other countries, that comes to oil and geopolitical strategy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From a strategic standpoint sb, nothing to do with humanitarianism but everything to to with oil I'm afraid, ditto Iraq.

 

When we invade to free the oppressed in almost the entire region of Sub Saharan Africa, Central Africa, China, Tibet, Burma, N Korea, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Zimbabwe etc, etc, etc then I might start to believe it.

Yes I've noticed people with moral crusades don't really think things through. If we could wave a magic wand we would. We can't. Our latest idea of imposing democracy won't work as we don't actually understand the structure or nature the country we're interfering in.

We have a least got the peace talks started but without the biggest player in the area these will fail. However it's a start. I suspect Syria will end up being divided and will remain unstable for the foreseeable future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Afghanistan proven reserves were minimal, it was purely a political reaction. The towers were hit, Bush calls for war and vengeance. Your right about Iraq and the other countries, that comes to oil and geopolitical strategy.

They are plenty of resources in Afghanistan which is a pity as the country could become quite rich. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Afghanistan The tribal divides and the use of religion will prevent this from ever being exploited to their benefit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Afghanistan proven reserves were minimal, it was purely a political reaction. The towers were hit, Bush calls for war and vengeance. Your right about Iraq and the other countries, that comes to oil and geopolitical strategy.

 

Well in that case the goal posts have shifted.

 

“The War is Worth Wagingâ€: Afghanistan’s Vast Reserves of Minerals and Natural Gas The War on Afghanistan is a Profit driven “Resource Warâ€.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-war-is-worth-waging-afghanistan-s-vast-reserves-of-minerals-and-natural-gas/19769

 

$1 Trillion Motherlode of Lithium and Gold Discovered in Afghanistan

 

The previously unknown deposits — including huge veins of iron, copper, cobalt, gold and critical industrial metals like lithium — are so big and include so many minerals that are essential to modern industry that Afghanistan could eventually be transformed into one of the most important mining centers in the world. An internal Pentagon memo, for example, states that Afghanistan could become the “Saudi Arabia of lithium,†a key raw material in the manufacture of batteries for laptops and BlackBerrys.

 

http://www.mining.com/1-trillion-motherlode-of-lithium-and-gold-discovered-in-afghanistan/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not saying they don't have resources now (that's definitely a reason for staying), but when we went in i think they had next to nothing and no indications.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not saying they don't have resources now (that's definitely a reason for staying), but when we went in i think they had next to nothing and no indications.

I never said it was all about the oil or indeed mineral reservers of Afghanistan, though much was, my point was the invasion was strategic.  This involves a number of things, not least being able to set up military facilities within easy striking distance of both Pakistan and Iran, but also permitting a significant (but most importantly legitimate) naval presence in the Arabian Sea, which could quickly deploy to the Persian Gulf should the west oil supplies be threatened.

 

Make no mistake what went on and is still going on in Afghanistan is appalling, but compared to what goes on day in day out in a number of the areas I previously mentioned it pales into absolute insignificance.  Just as an example this from Wikipedia about the 1994 Rwandan Genocide....

 

The Rwandan Genocide was a genocidal mass slaughter of ethnic Tutsis by ethnic Hutus that took place in 1994 in the East African state of Rwanda. Over the course of approximately 100 days (from the assassination of Juvénal Habyarimana and Cyprien Ntaryamira on April 6 through mid-July) over 500,000 people were killed, according to a Human Rights Watch estimate.[2] Estimates of the death toll have ranged from 500,000–1,000,000,[1] or as much as 20% of the country's total population.

 

Did the west invade there to stop it, has the west since invaded to prevent similar things still going on in Congo?  Of course not and the reason for this inaction is very clear, no oil or significant mineral wealth.. oh and they are just black Africans at the end of the day so who cares?  That really is the truth of the matter, disgusting and reprehensible as it is and it's exactly why we don't interfere in vast swathes of sub Saharan Africa too.

 

It's very hard to think where the west has actually invaded fully when oil has not been the driver...no pun intended.  Even in Bosnia the 1995 Shrebenica massacre basically took place because the west saw no reason to intervene in what it deemed to be a civil war, depsite the fact it was taking place in the middle of 21st century Europe...that should tell you all you need to know about how oil is the single driver behind all western military decision making. That's how it was then, that's how it is now and that's how will remain until the oil wells finally run dry.

 

Bringing the discussion back to Syria, things are clearly far more complicated.  Given it's strategic position the west would love to gain a significant presence, but unfortunately the Russians have rather pee'd on their parade here by being very pro Assad....so some rather more creative thinking appears needed.

Edited by shedhead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the Rwandan genocide the west did have some influence as the French military trained the killers and their" humanitarian intervention" in June 1994 enabled many of those killers to escape justice. John Major also ignored warnings and then proceeded to mislead the British Parliament about what was really happening.

 

For a fine book on the subject, Linda Melvern, Conspiracy to Murder: The Rwandan Genocide

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the Rwandan genocide the west did have some influence as the French military trained the killers and their" humanitarian intervention" in June 1994 enabled many of those killers to escape justice. John Major also ignored warnings and then proceeded to mislead the British Parliament about what was really happening.

 

For a fine book on the subject, Linda Melvern, Conspiracy to Murder: The Rwandan Genocide

Indeed Knocker, we have a history of PM's who for whatever reasons mislead parliament, in this instance though to hide the facts rather than fabricate them. Frankly I don't read many books, I prefer to listen to what's reported and then draw my own conclusions, few of which ever tally with what was reported...to long in the tooth to fall for all the BS quite frankly Posted Image

Edited by shedhead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed Knocker, we have a history of PM's who for whatever reasons mislead parliament, in this instance though to hide the facts rather than fabricate them. Frankly I don't read many books, I prefer to listen to what's reported and then draw my own conclusions, few of which ever tally with what was reported...to long in the tooth to fall for all the BS quite frankly Posted Image

 

There are two problems with that. One you are dependent on the veracity of what is reported and two, you have no idea what isn't. Ergo you can draw the wrong conclusions. For example i recently read a book about the atrocities we committed in Kenya. The author spent years on it basically because many of the documents have mysteriously disappeared from the archives. There is no way you going to get anywhere near the truth without someone putting in some very serious research.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the Congo its the most resource rich country on the planet.

Certain resources don't require much modern tech to extract, just good ol' manual labour and basic mining equipment. In those situations, having warlords and criminal gangs running the mining operations allows for the use of slave labour and keeps prices low for the west.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...