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Britain drawing up plans for military action over alleged chemical attack.


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Posted
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold. Enjoy all extremes though.
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.

    Just a coincidence...

     

    Oh definitely!Posted Image

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    If Scotland had been independent at the time of this vote then Westminster would have voted for military action, all other things being equal obviously. I wonder what then might have happened in the U.S.?

     

    From the Scottish Politics thread:

     

    Scottish MP’s who voted in favour of war:
     
    David Mundell (Tory Dumfries)
     
    Alan Reid (LD Argyll & Bute)
    Alistair Carmichael (LD Orkney & Shetland)
    Danny Alexander (LD Inverness), 
    Jo Swinson (LD E Dunbartonshire)
    Malcolm Bruce (LD Gordon)
    Ming Campbell (LD NE Fife)
    Michael Moore (LD Berwick etc)
    Robert Smith (LD W Aberdeenshire & Kincardine)
     
    Scottish MP’s who didn't care whether we went to war illegally presumably:
     
    Charles Kennedy (LD Ross, Skye, Lochaber)
    John Thurso (LD, Caithness, Sutherland, & E Ross)
     
    Gordon Brown (Lab Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath)
    Michael Connarty (Lab Linlithgow & E Falkirk)
    Ian Davidson (Lab Glasgow SW) 
     
    = 14/59
     
    So anti-war = 76% (or 85% if you count not turning up as against).
    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold. Enjoy all extremes though.
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.

    So much for Putin allegedly considering changing his stance

     

    .http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/05/putin-greets-obama-with-syria-threat/#ixzz2e1zzxh00

     

    And Obama's response?

     

    post-1989-0-93574400-1378395762_thumb.pn

    Edited by Blitzen
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    Posted
  • Location: Eastbourne, East Sussex (work in Mid Sussex)
  • Location: Eastbourne, East Sussex (work in Mid Sussex)

    I do appreciate they need time to contemplate action and what kind of action, but does anyone get the feeling this is the World's biggest 'hot potato' for decades and we may not get a resolution on anything for weeks or months or ever?

     

    Meanwhile another 100,000 refuges will flee the country and another 5000 people will be killed.

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    Posted
  • Location: Washington - Tyne and Wear
  • Weather Preferences: Severe Thunderstorms, Heat (Summer) & Snow in Winter
  • Location: Washington - Tyne and Wear

    I do appreciate they need time to contemplate action and what kind of action, but does anyone get the feeling this is the World's biggest 'hot potato' for decades and we may not get a resolution on anything for weeks or months or ever?

     

    Meanwhile another 100,000 refuges will flee the country and another 5000 people will be killed.

     

     

    No I get the idea what this has been carefully planned and invested in for years and that they can't afford to back away now - unless congress really do get the final say but Kelly refused to acknowledge that.  The west have been arming rebel fighters all the while flooding them in to the country via Turkey - that is known as fact to some degree.

     

    We have been in a war by proxy for years with Syria and Iran - this is just the latest instalment.

     

    I really do hope Coast that this takes a 180 degree turn or that you are right and we buy some time - I live in hope.

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    I would not be surprised if there is another "incident" soon which will give the U.S. and probably the U.K. a pretext for war, without bothering with parliamentary votes. One chemical strike into Israel should be all it takes for a full scale war?

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    Posted
  • Location: Mostly Watford but 3 months of the year at Capestang 34310, France
  • Weather Preferences: Continental type climate with lots of sunshine with occasional storm
  • Location: Mostly Watford but 3 months of the year at Capestang 34310, France

    .Kerry's stupid snipe re the UK with his France being the oldest ally left many Americans perplexed because they just don't see it that way. If the UK government had said yes this bombing would have already taken place.

    Just what I would expect from a 'Kerryman' - has he forgotten that De Gaulle left the NATO command and booted the Americans off French soil in 1966?

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    Posted
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold. Enjoy all extremes though.
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.

    Pretty much stalemate at the G20 today I think. I don't think this will change tomorrow either. Obama will probably wait for the Congress vote. We just have to hope that there aren't a lot of skeletons in a lot of Congressmens' cupboards  or, if the vote goes against him, Obama backs down and respects the public's wishes.   Appears to me though that we are too far down the road now for that to be an option or an out?

    I am kind of with Catch on this, in that maybe we should all expect something pretty awful to happen somewhere soon.

    Edited by Blitzen
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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    Just what I would expect from a 'Kerryman' - has he forgotten that De Gaulle left the NATO command and booted the Americans off French soil in 1966?

     

    And also don't forget Johnson asked him if that meant the thousands who were at rest in French cemeteries as well,

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    Posted
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold. Enjoy all extremes though.
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.
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    Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

    Indeed. Wherever there's a trough, the usual snouts are in it!

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    Posted
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE

    Apparently the speaker of the Syrian parliament has sent a letter to Congress, similar in style to the one sent to the Commons. I'm surprised the Christian Community in Syria hasn't done so, given tonights comments by a Syrian Priest on CNN you would think this could make a difference. He was adamantly opposed to military action because of the likely repercussions, he also stressed how the Assad regime had never been any problem to Christians in terms of religious freedom.

    The New York times has just published a video showing the few minutes before the execution of seven Syrian soldiers by the rebels, I don't doubt that the Syrian army has probably done similar to the rebels but this goes to an earlier post I made a few days back in terms of the lack of honour or morality in this war. What we're seeing is a flagrant breach of the Geneva Convention on both sides.

    This also leads in to the aftermath of what happens with an Assad overthrow, are we suddenly to believe that this lack of morality and honour will change. Unfortunately the West just doesn't understand the mindsets involved here, ie take revenge when you can so those Alawites and Christians will see the full force of this if Assad falls.

    Even if somehow the moderate rebels are still in the majority how long will this last, we've seen from Pakistan that moderate voices get killed, that eventually the discourse becomes one of just oppression to women and minorities, that the gun and terror silence everything in these countries.

    The West likes to play the moral high ground and keeps going on about Russia using the veto on Syria, not much said in terms of the USA using the veto consistently to stop any measures against Israel who continue to treat the Palestinians disgracefully.

    Is it any wonder that the Middle East views the west as hypocrites, a big catalyst for a change would be a resolution to the Israel/Palestine issue but this has no chance because what we're seeing is a continual moving of the goal posts by Israel, continued building of new settlements.

    Edited by nick sussex
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    Posted
  • Location: Washington - Tyne and Wear
  • Weather Preferences: Severe Thunderstorms, Heat (Summer) & Snow in Winter
  • Location: Washington - Tyne and Wear

    Apparently the speaker of the Syrian parliament has sent a letter to Congress, similar in style to the one sent to the Commons. I'm surprised the Christian Community in Syria hasn't done so, given tonights comments by a Syrian Priest on CNN you would think this could make a difference. He was adamantly opposed to military action because of the likely repercussions, he also stressed how the Assad regime had never been any problem to Christians in terms of religious freedom.The New York times has just published a video showing the few minutes before the execution of seven Syrian soldiers by the rebels, I don't doubt that the Syrian army has probably done similar to the rebels but this goes to an earlier post I made a few days back in terms of the lack of honour or morality in this war. What we're seeing is a flagrant breach of the Geneva Convention on both sides.This also leads in to the aftermath of what happens with an Assad overthrow, are we suddenly to believe that this lack of morality and honour will change. Unfortunately the West just doesn't understand the mindsets involved here, ie take revenge when you can so those Alawites and Christians will see the full force of this if Assad falls.Even if somehow the moderate rebels are still in the majority how long will this last, we've seen from Pakistan that moderate voices get killed, that eventually the discourse becomes one of just oppression to women and minorities, that the gun and terror silence everything in these countries.The West likes to play the moral high ground and keeps going on about Russia using the veto on Syria, not much said in terms of the USA using the veto consistently to stop any measures against Israel who continue to treat the Palestinians disgracefully.Is it any wonder that the Middle East views the west as hypocrites, a big catalyst for a change would be a resolution to the Israel/Palestine issue but this has no chance because what we're seeing is a continual moving of the goal posts by Israel, continued building of new settlements.

     

     

    Well put Nick - I would however suggest that the west know exactly what the mindsets are - they just simply don't care.

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    Posted
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold. Enjoy all extremes though.
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.

    Congress reconvening tomorrow now apparently. Debate may take place over the weekend.

     

    Meanwhile....I know, I know, it's from Infowars.com but just as plausable a reason as everything else thrown into the mix just now. Have a read.  

     

    http://www.infowars.com/is-the-united-states-going-to-go-to-war-with-syria-over-a-natural-gas-pipeline/

     

    .

    Edited by Blitzen
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    Posted
  • Location: Tornado Alley, west London
  • Location: Tornado Alley, west London

    Well put Nick - I would however suggest that the west know exactly what the mindsets are - they just simply don't care.

     

    And still have a patronising "We know best" attitude.

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    Posted
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold. Enjoy all extremes though.
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.
    Posted
  • Location: Peterborough
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and frost in the winter. Hot and sunny, thunderstorms in the summer.
  • Location: Peterborough

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2412700/Horrifying-fate-Assads-soldiers-executed-camera-Syrian-rebels.html

     

     

    Well is that not another war crime by the rebels? Funny really how all the evidence, is well rebels doing wrong.

    I like how there is not a peep of this on the bbc website, only how there is more evidence against Assad on chemical weapons, whoops I mean evidence that chemical weapons have been used and no proof of who did it.

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    Posted
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold. Enjoy all extremes though.
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.

    Libya not faring too well now apparently. Jeez, it's just endless!

     

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/09/05/lawlessness-and-ruin-in-libya/

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    Posted
  • Location: Tornado Alley, west London
  • Location: Tornado Alley, west London

    Libya not faring too well now apparently. Jeez, it's just endless!

     

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/09/05/lawlessness-and-ruin-in-libya/

    So, another triumph for "western democracy" then?

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    Posted
  • Location: Mostly Watford but 3 months of the year at Capestang 34310, France
  • Weather Preferences: Continental type climate with lots of sunshine with occasional storm
  • Location: Mostly Watford but 3 months of the year at Capestang 34310, France

    How do we really know who to believe? No doubt there are people in the arms business wanting to gee up Obama, since it means profits for them - I am quite convinced that the Islamic fundamentalists portion of the rebels would be cynical enough to murder their own people in order to get advantage and support from the rest of the world, or it could be an ill thought out measure by Assad, or his followers to weaken the fighting strength of the opposition but surely if this were to be the case I would have thought it would have had the opposite effect, as is being shown at the moment. 

     

    There have been comments by others that we in the west do not understand the mind set of the participants in this unholy war - I fully concur with this and the west is making the mistake of judging the situation by western standards.

     

    I believe we have to be particularly careful here to ensure that we have the proper facts before taking any rash actions and if we get it wrong I foresee 'Pandora's Box' being opened and what we have seen to date will be nothing as compared to what could happen in the future, especially if the fundamentalists get the upper hand - already there have been attacks on Christian communities which Assad's regime was tolerant of.

     

    The only way forward I can see is to try and convince the different factions involved that they are hurting themselves more than anybody else and that this will escalate with time and to come to the table discuss their differences amicably and reach a peaceful solution. But there again pigs might fly, so at the end of the day we will be damned if we do and damned if we don't.

     

    The only real solution lies with the people themselves and this may well take a couple of generations or more - I'm sure that we should not wish to become involved for this length of time.

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    Posted
  • Location: Louth, Lincolnshire
  • Weather Preferences: Misty Autumn days and foggy nights
  • Location: Louth, Lincolnshire

    No I get the idea what this has been carefully planned and invested in for years and that they can't afford to back away now - unless congress really do get the final say but Kelly refused to acknowledge that.  The west have been arming rebel fighters all the while flooding them in to the country via Turkey - that is known as fact to some degree.

     

    We have been in a war by proxy for years with Syria and Iran - this is just the latest instalment.

     

    I really do hope Coast that this takes a 180 degree turn or that you are right and we buy some time - I live in hope.

     

    Good post.  I think the last thing this is, in unplanned and unprepared for.  In fact, I suspect the only thing about the last few years that wasn't part of the plan was the fact that the UK Parliament voted against military action at the 11th hour, so the US are now reliant on France unless, of course the House of Representatives vote against it (I don't think they will - I think the pause in the debate will be populated by some fairly rabid 'whipping' of representatives, or the US equivalent).

     

    What comes afterwards will be the key - will it be punitive air strikes - action which is symbolic rather than militarily significant, or something more.  If it is something more, this has the opportunity to go wrong to a greater degree than either Afghanistan, Iraq or Libya - none of those countries shared a border with Israel. 

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    Posted
  • Location: Camborne
  • Location: Camborne

    The only real solution lies with the people themselves and this may well take a couple of generations or more - I'm sure that we should not wish to become involved for this length of time.

     

    The problem with that Mike is that sorting it out between themselves, by that I mean the whole of ME, has been going on since 1949 so I suspect a couple of generations a tad optimistic. And now we have another geopolitical mess. According to the Times the CIA is supervising fresh weapons consignments from Saudi Arabia and other Arab states to Syria’s rebels to help them to capitalise on a US bombing offensive that could start next week.

     

    Free Syrian Army co-ordinators in the Gulf say they are in urgent talks with Arab states to secure fresh shipments of anti-tank weapons, surface-to-air missiles and conventional small arms. With American air cover, the rebels are intent on taking advantage of the first period of air superiority they have had during the 30-month conflict.

     

    One Syrian opposition representative said: “We are talking to our Arab allies and working on the Syrian border to get this done. This is a one-off opportunity and we have to make it count.â€

     

    Security sources in the Gulf confirmed the Saudi plans, which are being co-ordinated with Qatar, Turkey and Jordan and overseen by the CIA.

     

    Washington’s Arab allies, especially Saudi Arabia, which is the linchpin of Arab efforts to arm and finance the rebels, were initially dismayed by President Obama’s unexpected decision to defer to Congress last week for approval for the strikes. Riyadh has been pushing for months for US intervention.

     

    Frankly I can't see anytime soon where sorting it out between themselves becomes a viable option because apart from influence from the west and east which will not stop there is growing splintering within the Arab world fed by Islamists leading to internecine strife.

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    Very interesting point about an engineered war. All the Middle Eastern countries have a commodity in common OIL. I have never understood why the west only cherry picks wars to get involved in, as plenty of atrocities have and are happening in central/southern African countries that go on ignored. Not total qualification, but a theory non the least.

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