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A Winter's Tale

Rangers To Be Liquidated?

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why even div 3?..if i started a new club in Scotland would i be allowed into div3?..of course not

Seems to be there rules. In the English league it would be none league. However if it was Man UTD Liverpool in same sit they would try there hardest to get back in the league somehow.

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I've come across a very interesting blog (http://saintinasia.wordpress.com/2012/07/06/the-sfaspl-tv-myth-how-we-compare-to-europe/) that looks at the TV money in the Scottish League compared to that in Europe.

"

For the last 6 months we have heard how if Rangers are not in the top flight, then SKY will walk away. The figures banded about have been complete fiction. Now, thanks to Stenhousemuir being the first club to really reveal what Regan and Doncaster have been saying, we have some real figures to compare against.

All we had till yesterday was a commercial revenue of 18.7 million GBP

In the Stenhousemuir statement last night (here) they claimed that the SFA and the SPL (eg, Regan and Doncaster) had presented the SFL clubs with the following figures re: tv deals:

Rangers in SFL3:

  • Loss of Sky broadcasting payments of circa £10m/season
  • Loss of ESPN broadcasting payments of circa £5m/season
  • Loss of Sportfive broadcasting payments of £2.7m/season (overseas broadcasters)
  • Loss of sponsorship of £1m/season
  • Additional new broadcasting deal with income of £3m/season

Rangers in SFL1:

  • Sky and ESPN have committed to retain their deals but include Rangers Newco content during the season
  • Loss of Sportfive broadcasting payments of £2.7m/season (no requirement if no Old Firm games)
  • Loss of sponsorship of £1m/season

So, here we have the following confirmed. DOMESTIC (I am excluding all other rights, as my figures below only include domestic rights, and not those sold to overseas) rights are currently 15m GBP per year. If Rangers are in SFL1, then TV deal will more or less stay as it is. If Rangers are in SFL3 then the TV deal will be only 3m GBP a year.

3,000,000 a year???!! Seriously?

Lets just assume for one minute that Regan/Doncaster are being serious. How does this deal compare to other European countries?

There is 2 ways we could do this. Firstly, we can compare total attendances and secondly, brand value. I will explain brand value later, but lets start with Total Attendance,

The SPL, with Rangers, was the 11th most supported league (by attendances) in Europe last season. We had higher attendances than the Belgian, Russian, Portuguese, Swedish, Norweigan, Danish, Greek, Swiss, Austrian and Polish Premier Leagues. How did our TV revenue compare?

Note I have converted to EURO’s, so 15m becomes 18.75m. Country League Rank attendance Actual TV rights/year EUROs SCO 1 11 3,116,574.00 18,750,000.00 BEL 1 13 2,844,299.00 45,700,000.00 SUI 1 18 2,045,762.00 36,500,000.00 POL 1 19 1,950,048.00 5,760,000.00 NOR 1 20 1,931,144.00 56,000,000.00 GRE 1 23 1,555,201.00 44,000,000.00 AUT 1 24 1,452,970.00 17,000,000.00 DEN 1 25 1,395,774.00 45,000,000.00

As you can see, our deal does not compare very well (i have even included sources for these figures, just in case Doncaster thinks I am making them up!). All the leagues below us in this table get more TV revenue than the Scottish game, apart from the Polish league and Austrian leagues. However the Polish league has good oversea’s rights in Israel and Germany which boosts their revenue.

Another way to look at it is Brand Value. I took the brand value from this excellent report on European football which looks at the value of clubs in the country and then ranks the countries and leagues according to brand value. The SPL comes in at 16th in this list as you can see below. Rank Country Value (millions) TV rights EURO 2 G ER 3,038 422,000,000.00 3 ESP 1,531 560,000,000.00 4 ITA 1,122 892,000,000.00 5 FRA 849 517,000,000.00 10 SUI 201 36,500,000.00 11 DEN 155 45,000,000.00 12 BEL 150 45,700,000.00 13 NOR 108 56,000,000.00 14 POR 108 ? 15 ROU 102 ? 16 SCO 96 18,750,000.00 17 SRB 77 ? 18 AUT 70 17,000,000.00 19 POL 54 5,760,000.00 20 SWE 50 ? 21 GRE 44 44,000,000.00 26 HUN 19 3,500,000.00 37 IRL 4.5 1,000,000.00

As you can see, Scotland is still ahead of countries like Austria and Greece. Our brand value is not far behind Norway which has a deal almost 4 times what we have.

Based on the 2 tables above, it looks like our current deal is well undervalued, compared to other European countries, but lets adjust it for there being no Rangers. As Regan and Doncaster have just told us thanks to Stenhousemuir, our deal is ONLY 3,000,000 should Rangers be there. Here is the table for attendances again, minus ALL Rangers fans throughout the season; (again, adjusted to EUROs) Country League Rank attendance Actual TV rights/year BEL 1 13 2,844,299.00 45,700,000.00 SCO 1 11 2,396,574.00 3,600,000.00 SUI 1 18 2,045,762.00 36,500,000.00 POL 1 19 1,950,048.00 5,760,000.00 NOR 1 20 1,931,144.00 56,000,000.00 GRE 1 23 1,555,201.00 44,000,000.00 AUT 1 24 1,452,970.00 17,000,000.00 DEN 1 25 1,395,774.00 45,000,000.00

As you can see we are now behind Belgian but far ahead of the Swiss, the Danish, Greeks, and Norwegians. Infact, our ‘NEW’ deal would be equivalent to what the Hungarian league takes in TV revenue domestically (they also have a deal for games to be shown in Romania which I haven’t included) .

Just to put that in perspective, the Scottish game gets 2.4 million fans (after taking out the Rangers fans!), while the Hungarian League attracts just 700k fans. 3.5 times less. The Scottish game has a brand value of 96 million, while the Hungarian league has a value of 19million!! Yet our TV deal will be the same? We will get half of what the Polish league gets, despite us having more fans and a higher brand value?

Ok, So Doncaster and Regan are talking ****. We knew that though. What we really want to know is what SHOULD our TV deal be. Based on the tables above I extrapolated the attendances against TV revenue for all the countries I could find data on and then used the ratio of tv revenue/attendances to predict what each country SHOULD get. The table below assumes Rangers are NOT in the league, yet keeping our current TV deal: Average Ratio 17.93 Country League attendance Actual TV rights/year Ratio Estimated TV Under/Over value RUS 1 2,896,940.00 51,940,174.73 BEL 1 2,844,299.00 45,700,000.00 16.07 50,996,357.21 (5,296,357.21) FRA 2 2,590,962.00 46,454,196.15 ITA 2 2,399,991.00 43,030,215.29 SCO 1 2,396,574.00 18,750,000.00 5.341 42,968,950.80 (24,962,700.79) POR 1 2,379,165.00 42,656,819.20 UKR 1 2,215,430.00 39,721,161.40 SUI 1 2,045,762.00 36,500,000.00 17.84 36,679,128.92 (179,128.92) POL 1 1,950,048.00 5,760,000.00 2.954 34,963,041.64 NOR 1 1,931,144.00 56,000,000.00 29 34,624,105.71 21,375,894.29 RUS 2 1,660,545.00 29,772,448.67 SWE 1 1,556,651.00 27,909,699.52 GRE 1 1,555,201.00 44,000,000.00 28.29 27,883,702.00 16,116,298.00 AUT 1 1,452,970.00 17,000,000.00 11.7 26,050,769.32 (9,050,769.32) DEN 1 1,395,774.00 45,000,000.00 32.24 25,025,283.73 19,974,716.27

Even if we keep our current TV deal of 15,000,000 GBP (note, figures above are in EURO), then a game without Rangers is still UNDERVALUED to the tune of 24,000,000 EUROs when compared to other European leagues!!

If we take the Doncaster/Regan figures of 3.5million Euros, our game would be undervalued at close to 39m Euro’s!

Throughout this saga we have been fed lie after lie. I have already proven our clubs won’t go bankrupt, as have others. No club has ever challenged figures presented by me here, by others (such as Killie fans here) or by Motherwell themselves. I now challenge Doncaster and co to challenge these figures.

Maybe someone in the MSM would like to ask Doncaster and Regan WHY they undervalue our game so much?"

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Maybe someone in the MSM would like to ask Doncaster and Regan WHY they undervalue our game so much?"

Maybe because it was a two team league with only one set of games worth watching Celtic V Rangers? However this also hides another problem with Money going to the big clubs. Smaller clubs find it harder to compete and gap widens each year. In the Premiership it would be nice if a small club could mount a challenge but unless there's a one year fluke this I can't see ever happening.

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Rangers voted by the league to start in divison 3. The authorities looking create SPL2 and are going to invite rangers into that if they can pull it off.

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So what was a 2 horse race in the mighty scottish football setup has now been reduced to one who would struggle for promotion from the English championship? With every other side in the 3 mini leagues being of league 2 quality and many in the 2nd and 3rd division who would struggle in English regional leagues.

Sides in the conference south are now signing players direct from the SPL, yet the Scottish league gets millions in TV money because of 2 teams. Surely its now time that Celtic come and play in the big boys league and the status of Scottish football is reduced to reflect its true level?

I know I will get shot for this but I think its a fair assessment, I mean how can a team in Scotland with 50,000 crowds go bust playing against sides with less then 10,000?

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So what was a 2 horse race in the mighty scottish football setup has now been reduced to one who would struggle for promotion from the English championship? With every other side in the 3 mini leagues being of league 2 quality and many in the 2nd and 3rd division who would struggle in English regional leagues.

Sides in the conference south are now signing players direct from the SPL, yet the Scottish league gets millions in TV money because of 2 teams. Surely its now time that Celtic come and play in the big boys league and the status of Scottish football is reduced to reflect its true level?

I know I will get shot for this but I think its a fair assessment, I mean how can a team in Scotland with 50,000 crowds go bust playing against sides with less then 10,000?

I wouldn't want either Celtic or Rangers in the English leagues..anyway give it 2/3 seasons and the status quo in Scotland will be resumed

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So what was a 2 horse race in the mighty scottish football setup has now been reduced to one who would struggle for promotion from the English championship? With every other side in the 3 mini leagues being of league 2 quality and many in the 2nd and 3rd division who would struggle in English regional leagues.

Sides in the conference south are now signing players direct from the SPL, yet the Scottish league gets millions in TV money because of 2 teams. Surely its now time that Celtic come and play in the big boys league and the status of Scottish football is reduced to reflect its true level?

I know I will get shot for this but I think its a fair assessment, I mean how can a team in Scotland with 50,000 crowds go bust playing against sides with less then 10,000?

Celtic is about top half Championship standard, Motherwell, Dundee United and Hearts are mid table Championship, Kilmarnock and Aberdeen are bottom part of Championship, Inverness, Ross County, Hibs, St Mirren and St Johnstone are probably top half League one sides. The top three sides in the next division are around League one quality. Not really inspiring is it, but the money Scottish football gets compared to England is beyond compare. If you read the my quote of a blog I discovered about TV money, the Scottish game actually gets a lot less money for what it's worth but let's admit it Scottish football has been left in the abyss with the English league getting a lot of the money and intrest. It's quite sad really for what once was a passionate and good footballing league(s). Clubs have wasted the money availabe on crap players and the way grassroots football is done in this country is embarrasing. If the way the game is run and played at all levels is changed then we can think about Scottish football heading on the road to recovery but we need to wait and see.

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I am not Scottish but I would ask someone who is whether or not they think that the old firm has actually damaged Scottish football as a whole?

Wouldn't the football there simply be better off, more competitive with supporters more evenly spread simply if Rangers and Celtic were no more? From a nutrual point of view I can imagine the whole setup being a lot more exciting with the SPL really being up for grabs. I think the football would improve greatly?

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I am not Scottish but I would ask someone who is whether or not they think that the old firm has actually damaged Scottish football as a whole?

Wouldn't the football there simply be better off, more competitive with supporters more evenly spread simply if Rangers and Celtic were no more? From a nutrual point of view I can imagine the whole setup being a lot more exciting with the SPL really being up for grabs. I think the football would improve greatly?

Up until the early 1990s, Scottish Football had been going fine and Celtic and Rangers were very much part of - not bigger than - the entire Scottish footballing system. But since Money had come into the game Celtic and Rangers spent money, the other clubs couldn't compete and they settled for being mediocre, the smaller clubs spent money or foreign players, because clubs weren't interested in prioritising their youth systems and no one had pointed out this fact - fewer and fewer talented young talent came through and the quality of football decreased dramatically and the entire game couldn't cope or tolerate such a mess that's come at a result at how sloppy, careless and reckless Scottish football has been for the past two years. I hope things soon calm down and that things will stablise and we can move forward and lot better than we've done for many years.

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I am not Scottish but I would ask someone who is whether or not they think that the old firm has actually damaged Scottish football as a whole?

Wouldn't the football there simply be better off, more competitive with supporters more evenly spread simply if Rangers and Celtic were no more? From a nutrual point of view I can imagine the whole setup being a lot more exciting with the SPL really being up for grabs. I think the football would improve greatly?

Have you ever been to Cowdenbeath's ground?biggrin.png

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I am not Scottish but I would ask someone who is whether or not they think that the old firm has actually damaged Scottish football as a whole?

Wouldn't the football there simply be better off, more competitive with supporters more evenly spread simply if Rangers and Celtic were no more? From a nutrual point of view I can imagine the whole setup being a lot more exciting with the SPL really being up for grabs. I think the football would improve greatly?

Four different 3rd place finishers in 6 years sums up potential I think.

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Wouldn't the football there simply be better off, more competitive with supporters more evenly spread simply if Rangers and Celtic were no more? From a nutrual point of view I can imagine the whole setup being a lot more exciting with the SPL really being up for grabs. I think the football would improve greatly?

.

Celtic and Rangers have done a lot good and a lot bad for Scottish football but as the old firm and the other teams seem to have deviated apart from each other perhaps it would be good if Celtic can move to the English football system - a Premier League season would have more benefits than a Champions League season for Celtic. And it would be good if we could get some Scottish clubs get the same financial backing as English clubs get. Some people have argued that Scottish football would be worthless without the Old Firm but I believe that you've still got the rest of a footballing mad nation if the old firm left. Dundee is only one of a few cities to have had two teams reach the semi-finals of the European Cup, Aberdeen has won the European Cup Winners' Cup and Super Cup and Hibs were the first British team to reach the semi-final of the European Cup. If the other teams in Scotland are given a chance, they could make a name for themselves in Europe that wouldn't have been possible if the old firm were there and there would still be a lot of fans left (100 thousand people attended the victory parade for Hearts in Edinburgh and that's greater than turn-out for Chelsea's Champions League parade) and teams representing many of the different populated areas of the country, so yes the game could thrive if the old firm left for the English league set-up. It will never happen though, but who knows what will happen now that Rangers are in Div 3.

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As much as the decision to put Rangers in the third division was the correct one from a moral standpoint, it could prove financially disastrous for Scottish football in general. The tv companies are likely to want to renegotiate any contracts which means this will effect the smaller clubs.

What is evident though is that recent events might level the playing field out as both Celtic now and Rangers in the future won't be able to just spend large sums of money, this is quite a wake up call, in that no club is too big to fail.

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Have you ever been to Cowdenbeath's ground?biggrin.png

As a seasoned English NL supporter I can assure you I have seen the lot from rope around a pitch and a lady in a wooden shed with a kettle and toasted sandwich making machine to Wembley stadium. I should imagine my experiences mirror very much of those of a supporter of a non fashionable Scottish club.

Cowdenbeath avg crowd of 479, a fantastic achievement to win Div 2 and in my eyes real football and I am sure they had one hell of a night when they won the title?

As for Celtic I know Paul Telfer and when I see him next week I will ask him what he thought playing up there and what he thinks about Scottish football?

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Please, we don't want the vile sectarianism of the old firm visited upon the EPL. Go & form the much mooted "North Atlantic league" with the Irish & Scandinavian clubs.

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One could argue that the situation where an entire country's footballing pyramid relies on 2 football teams to survive should never have been allowed to happen in the first place.

And I agree Dave, I never want the Old Firm in our league. Although Celtic and Rangers are nowhere near PL standard, they would struggle to get out of the Championship.

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I think the whole Celtic/Rangers domination thing is a worrying precedent to the EPL...I see potential for the premier league to go the same way and to some degree it already has..where you have the same 4-6 sides at the top year after year after year..and i can see this becoming a top 3 soon becoming more detached from teams 4-6...gone forever are the days when a team like Ipswich or Burnely could win the title.

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I think its a slighty different story in Scotland in that the big 2 get vastly bigger crowds so in theory will always be able to spend more on players. To my mind the only way to safeguard any sort of even playing field is for clubs only to be able to send want they can earn. Its the only way to put an end to the sugar daddy type involvement and will keep clubs something close to sustainable.

Clubs like Man City have to be stopped for the good of the game in my view?

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I think the whole Celtic/Rangers domination thing is a worrying precedent to the EPL...I see potential for the premier league to go the same way and to some degree it already has..where you have the same 4-6 sides at the top year after year after year..and i can see this becoming a top 3 soon becoming more detached from teams 4-6...gone forever are the days when a team like Ipswich or Burnely could win the title.

The gulf between the Old Firm and the rest of the SPL is enormous compared to the gap between the top 6 in the EPL and the rest. But it is growing.

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The gulf between the Old Firm and the rest of the SPL is enormous compared to the gap between the top 6 in the EPL and the rest. But it is growing.

But it didn't used to be enormous..that's why i see the gap at the top of the premier league getting bigger and bigger so that in 10-15 years time the top 3 will be too far removed from the rest...look at La Liga in Spain..its just Barca and Real and then the rest...European super league anyone???

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TV monies in the English premier League are relatively equal, with he top side getting around 60m and the bottom side 40m, this disparity is much smaller than virtually every other league in Europe where the bigger sides pretty much negotiate their own deals.

If it wasn't for this the gap between the top sides and the smaller sides would be even bigger.

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TV monies in the English premier League are relatively equal, with he top side getting around 60m and the bottom side 40m, this disparity is much smaller than virtually every other league in Europe where the bigger sides pretty much negotiate their own deals.

If it wasn't for this the gap between the top sides and the smaller sides would be even bigger.

True but the bigger clubs negotiate there own sponsorship and marketing deals..so these clubs can pull in hefty sums this way too in comparison to other clubs...also clubs have become a commodity available to the highest bidder.

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But it didn't used to be enormous..that's why i see the gap at the top of the premier league getting bigger and bigger so that in 10-15 years time the top 3 will be too far removed from the rest...look at La Liga in Spain..its just Barca and Real and then the rest...European super league anyone???

I hope it does form, I really do!

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