Dry Years In Derbyshire Prior To 1718

[knocker]

This is a very long shot but does anyone know of any info, regarding the above subject. I realise specific records almost certainly don't exist but some general information may be around in diaries, etc. The context is this.

The driving of the soughs greatly altered the water table of the whole of the Derbyshire lead field, but this didn't happen until the middle of the seventeenth century onwards (Longhead sough Cromford being the first to be driven in 1640, and Alport sough being the first to be draining mines in that area in 1718), so if it was possible to find records concerning weather pre that time and compare drought years with records of the R. Lathkill running dry, this might help.

Edited November 17, 2011 by weather ship

[Terminal Moraine]

I certainly don't know of any instrumental records for Derbyshire stretching back as as far as 1718. This would be in the very early days of rainfall recording as even Richard Towneley didn't begin his records until 1677 and he struggled to find anyone else in the country to take up regular readings, with which he could compare his.

The oldest regular record in Derbyshire of which I'm aware is that at Chatsworth House which began around 1760 but when I last enquired all the early records, from commencement to around 1907, were 'lost'.

I would think copies of old newspapers, agricultural or horticultural journals or perhaps accounts of the businesses of the Arkwright family would be your best bet but that would probably mean numerous trips to the Derbyshire Records Office in Matlock.

Chatsworth House may have some anecdotal information in their archives as the early Dukes of Devonshire had extensive lead mining interests in Derbyshire and east Staffordshire and the conditions of the mines, plus the associated outdoor activities, were all weather dependent.

[johnholmes]

I come from not that far from Cahtsworth but have far less knowledge about what you are asking about than TM has already given you.

Try the Derbyshire Life magazine or the Derbyshire Times paper. They might be able to give you a pointer to someone with data?

[knocker]

Thanks for the info. TM and John. I think I'll just leave it with the general summary. The 1600s were generally a period of harsh severe winters, and cool/wet springs/summers. At points the Thames was frozen for months, although I think it would have been wider then (?) and shallower (?) so easier to freeze when the temperatures were right.

It's all to do with the possible blocking of Magpie sough to restore the R. Lathkill and stop it running dry.

Edited November 17, 2011 by weather ship

[Aaron]

Thanks for the info. TM and John. I think I'll just leave it with the general summary. The 1600s were generally a period of harsh severe winters, and cool/wet springs/summers. At points the Thames was frozen for months, although I think it would have been wider then (?) and shallower (?) so easier to freeze when the temperatures were right.

It's all to do with the possible blocking of Magpie sough to restore the R. Lathkill and stop it running dry.

It was the old London Bridge which enabled the Thames in central London to freeze, right now, it's too fast flowing, and London has a large UHI>

[knocker]

It was the old London Bridge which enabled the Thames in central London to freeze, right now, it's too fast flowing, and London has a large UHI>

Plus we are not in the middle of the Little Ice Age with all this AGW.

[johnholmes]

Thanks for the info. TM and John. I think I'll just leave it with the general summary. The 1600s were generally a period of harsh severe winters, and cool/wet springs/summers. At points the Thames was frozen for months, although I think it would have been wider then (?) and shallower (?) so easier to freeze when the temperatures were right.

It's all to do with the possible blocking of Magpie sough to restore the R. Lathkill and stop it running dry.

ah yes, saw something on the Countryfile programme I think it was about that. Certainly times when I walk in Lathkill when there is little if any water in places.

[knocker]

ah yes, saw something on the Countryfile programme I think it was about that. Certainly times when I walk in Lathkill when there is little if any water in places.

That's exactly right. It started a, shall we say, rather heated discussion on a mining site I'm a member of. There are number on there who I think it fair to say are experts on the area.

[unclej]

There are number on there who I think it fair to say are experts on the area.

I am looking forward to hearing from them if they chose to enter the debate.

[JASON221]

Really??

[Polar Maritime]

I used to be the river keeper on Haddon Estate when Lord John was alive, I do know that this year was the 4th dryiest on record in the Lathkill catchment area, the River Lathkill leaks into Hillcar sough opposite Shining Bank Quary, and ends up running into the River Derwent 4 miles away. Also a sewer pipe runs down the side of the Bradford and Lathkill, when they were laying the pipe in the limestone bed they used small explosives, the water leaks out and follows the pipeline to Hillcar souph also.

Edited November 19, 2011 by snowrob

[knocker]

I used to be the river keeper on Haddon Estate when Lord John was alive, I do know that this year was the 4th dryiest on record in the Lathkill catchment area, the River Lathkill leaks into Hillcar sough opposite Shining Bank Quary, and ends up running into the River Derwent 4 miles away. Also a sewer pipe runs down the side of the Bradford and Lathkill, when they were laying the pipe in the limestone bed they used small explosives, the water leaks out and follows the pipeline to Hillcar souph also.

Thanks for those comments snowrob. If it's of any interest I'll post the link to the discussion on this.

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/community/viewtopic.aspx?t=6220&pid=1

[unclej]

I used to be the river keeper on Haddon Estate when Lord John was alive, I do know that this year was the 4th dryiest on record in the Lathkill catchment area, the River Lathkill leaks into Hillcar sough opposite Shining Bank Quary, and ends up running into the River Derwent 4 miles away. Also a sewer pipe runs down the side of the Bradford and Lathkill, when they were laying the pipe in the limestone bed they used small explosives, the water leaks out and follows the pipeline to Hillcar souph also.

Hill Carr leaks into the Lathkill via Wheels Rake Sough at Shining Bank and not the otherway round as you suggest and there is no evidence that the french drain you refer to by the Bradford leaks into Hill Carr.

Edited November 19, 2011 by unclej

[Polar Maritime]

Yes. You are correct . Sorry for the confusing info folks.

[Polar Maritime]

There are two major soughs draining this area, with Hill Carr sough being the one of major interest. This runs from near Youlgrave on the banks of the River Bradford right down the Lower Lathkill dale to the River Derwent in Darley Dale. It was once large enough to take a rowing boat a very long way up it and is still quite a substantial stream even today, despite a number of rock falls. The other sough that affects the river is the one draining the Magpie Mine into the Wye upstream of Ashford in the Water. Modern folklore has it that in the 1970's potholers blew out an underground obstruction in this Magpie Mine area which materially affected the height of the water table underground, right over to the head of the Lathkill Dale. Whilst scientists dispute this, there is little doubt in the minds of many locals that the river levels in the upper and middle reaches of the Lathkill were never the same after that incident. Who knows where the fissures in the limestone are and how far underground they travel? Add to this areas of tufa - a form of very porous limestone - and you have a tremendous amount of underground water percolation.

Edited December 11, 2011 by snowrob

[unclej]

I notice that you are quoting directly from a piece done by a ex-riverkeeper, parts of which are out of date or were never actually correct.

• The Hill Carr Sough is no longer a substantial stream, being blocked below the union with the Thornhill level after the 1-100 flood event of October 2000.
  
• It isn't folklore that the PDMHS cleared out the blocked tail of Magpie in 1972; it actually happened.
  
• Scientists now believe the Magpie level is taking over 50% of the Lathkills natural entiltlement.
  
• Hill Carr goes no closer to the Bradford than Mawstone Mine.
  

[Polar Maritime]

Yes in thinking Phillip White would be more knowledgeable than me on the subject. I think i will leave this subject with you, its well above my head and im clearly not up to date with the fine details.

Is this jan... or W.S ?

[Polar Maritime]

After picking up the local paper it's nice to see some local knowledge has been taken on board about the river Bradford, bearing in mind it's been the dryest since records began...And ive seen the Bradford dry up year after year without the job justifying exitement that's going off here at the moment, and upsetting the local potholers Anyway here is a quote from my local paper:-

" There seems to be several probable and inter-related reasons: The geology of the limestone of the valley and the porous limestone, the mineing legacy which saw sough dug to remove water,prolonged spells of dry weather and below average rainfall for the last few years.

The EA is now prepared to sink a gully into part of the river bed to prevent it from simply leaking, And a further "IDEA" is to examine the extent of water loss along the french drain which carries the "sewer" pipe that runs beside the river. Its possible that this may be inadvertently draining water away from the river."

I know the chaps that put this sewer pipe in, and they used small explosives to get through the limestone bed. The water will follow this pipe all the way down to where Hill Carr sough leaks into the Lathkill. So it seems some new information has come along....

Edited May 5, 2012 by Polar Maritime