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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL

    First question on QT is about English education.  Will they spend the same time talking about education in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? 

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Solihull, West Midlands. - 131 m asl .
  • Weather Preferences: Sun, Snow and Storms
  • Location: Solihull, West Midlands. - 131 m asl .
    7 hours ago, mountain shadow said:

    First question on QT is about English education.  Will they spend the same time talking about education in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? 

    MS..

    Despite having an SNP MP , when it is on the south coast of England,  explain to me why they should discuss scottish education. .

    The audience would just turn off -it would be irrelevent to them. QT does move around the country and I remember lots of shows from Cardiff, Edinburgh, Belfast, etc. It would be interesting to see an analysis of the shows. Scotland has more than its fair share..

    Labor's bun fight took over most of the show.

     

     

    Edited by Midlands Ice Age
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    55 minutes ago, Midlands Ice Age said:

    MS..

    Despite having an SNP MP , when it is on the south coast of England,  explain to me why they should discuss Scottish education. .

    Why should they discuss English Education on a programme broadcast in Scotland prime-time on a national broadcaster? It's no more relevant to Scottish people than e.g. changes to exam structures in Bavaria is.

    I think the point is that the BBC is redundant; Scotland and England are two different countries and since devolution paths have diverged to such an extent that  common politics and current affairs programming no longer makes any sense. Scotland should have it's own SBC now.

    Edited by scottish skier
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  • Location: Solihull, West Midlands. - 131 m asl .
  • Weather Preferences: Sun, Snow and Storms
  • Location: Solihull, West Midlands. - 131 m asl .
    Just now, scottish skier said:

    Why should they discuss English Education on a programme broadcast in Scotland prime-time on a national broadcaster? It's no more relevant to Scottish people than e.g. changes to exam structures in Bavaria is.

    I think the point is that the BBC is redundant; Scotland and England are two different countries and since devolution paths have diverged to such an extent that  common politics and current affairs programming no longer makes any sense. Scotland should have it's own SBC now.

    SS..

    That is the point I was making!

    You may have your chance soon! (Boo hoo)

    MIA

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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
    1 hour ago, Midlands Ice Age said:

    SS..

    That is the point I was making!

    You may have your chance soon! (Boo hoo)

    MIA

    Fair enough, but lets wait and see how many devolved issues are discussed when QT makes it's token visit North of the border.

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    Posted
  • Location: Fettercain/Edzell
  • Location: Fettercain/Edzell
    On 15 September 2016 at 13:05, mountain shadow said:

    I think there's an IPSOS MORI poll out showing 48% Yes / 52% No in any 2nd Iref so the margins continue to tighten and now of course well within margin of error.

    Just looked on the IPSOS site at the tables and again showing how the Union is finished, just a matter of simple birth/death rates...

    16 - 24 year olds ------  60% YES   40% NO

    25-34 year olds -------- 64% YES   36% NO

    35-54 year olds---------- 44% YES 56% NO

    +55 years --------------- 38% YES 62%

    The birth and death rates in Scotland are virtually equal at around 55,000. Therefore every month (if everything was equal) Yes is catching No by around 2000 voters as 16 year olds get the vote.

     

    Much as I support Scottish independence,  I'm not inclined to die within the next month or so, even five years hence,  in order to achieve that.

    Seriously, most (not all)  of my age related contacts support independence ?

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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    On 15/09/2016 at 13:05, mountain shadow said:

    I think there's an IPSOS MORI poll out showing 48% Yes / 52% No in any 2nd Iref so the margins continue to tighten and now of course well within margin of error.

    Just looked on the IPSOS site at the tables and again showing how the Union is finished, just a matter of simple birth/death rates...

    16 - 24 year olds ------  60% YES   40% NO

    25-34 year olds -------- 64% YES   36% NO

    35-54 year olds---------- 44% YES 56% NO

    +55 years --------------- 38% YES 62%

    The birth and death rates in Scotland are virtually equal at around 55,000. Therefore every month (if everything was equal) Yes is catching No by around 2000 voters as 16 year olds get the vote.

     

    16-24 year olds are notoriously naive in their political views. You can support all sorts of fanciful nonsense when you have no stake in it succeeding or failing but then you grow up and the world cuts through. Get a career, kids and a mortgage and that's the end of your boat rocking days.

    Its got nothing to do with 'Britishness' north or south of the border. Its just the difference between being a kid and a grown up.

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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
    17 minutes ago, Dougal said:

     

    Its got nothing to do with 'Britishness' north or south of the border. Its just the difference between being a kid and a grown up.

    It has EVERYTHING to do with Britishness. Scottish Skier has been providing evidence of this for years. 

    Unpalatable as it is, Unionism is literally dieing off in Scotland.

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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
    2 hours ago, ciel said:

     

    Seriously, most (not all)  of my age related contacts support independence ?

    Who are these mystery no voters that account for a majority of the Scottish electorate.  It's damn hard to find any. 

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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    22 minutes ago, mountain shadow said:

    It has EVERYTHING to do with Britishness. Scottish Skier has been providing evidence of this for years. 

    Unpalatable as it is, Unionism is literally dieing off in Scotland.

    No. It has EVERYTHING to do with popular support among young people for an anti establishment movement (which in the SNPs case has the dual attraction of being relatively new on the scene and at least passively anti English).

    Scrutiny under the spotlight will inevitably throw up enough sleaze, greed and corruption to lose the youth vote over time. 

    You can pretend its all a brave new world and attach all sorts of anti Union meaning to it if you like while the going is good but politicians are politicians. They'll let you down sooner or later.

    Btw, have you ever seen one of those all time top 100 music lists produced from a poll of young people. Full of current dross like Coldplay and Kanye West. Tells you everything you need to know about the naivety of the youth vote

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
    6 hours ago, Dougal said:

    (which in the SNPs case has the dual attraction of being relatively new on the scene and at least passively anti English).

    Tells you everything you need to know about the naivety of the youth vote

     

    Your post is so out of touch it's hard to know where to start.

    Firstly, show me one anti English comment from the SNP. The establishment English pro Union press has brain washed you into this thought.

    I would argue the naivety is voting for the Union.  The youth of Scotland don't read the MSM on the whole and therefore are not brain washed and are more informed.

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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    21 minutes ago, mountain shadow said:

    Your post is so out of touch it's hard to know where to start.

    Firstly, show me one anti English comment from the SNP. The establishment English pro Union press has brain washed you into this thought.

    I would argue the naivety is voting for the Union.  The youth of Scotland don't read the MSM on the whole and therefore are not brain washed and are more informed.

    OK, we'll have to draw a line under this then and agree to disagree.

    But, I did say at least passively anti English - there's an important distinction here. The likes of UKIP attract all sorts of bigots and are too disorganised to keep a lid on their outpourings. The SNP are a far slicker organisation. There are plenty with strong anti English views among their ranks. The party controls it very efficiently while not making too much of an effort to condemn it

    In 1997 Tony Blair appeared to represent a fresher, younger more inclusive type of politics. I voted for him on the back of it, as did a huge number of young people. That ended with a ruined economy, a trashed education system and an illegal war. As I said, politicians will let you down sooner or later.

    Also, I'm not brainwashed. I do my own thinking ta.

    Have a good weekend.:)

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    Posted
  • Location: glasgow
  • Weather Preferences: snowy winters hot summers
  • Location: glasgow

    Lets have a look at dougals recent contributions to this thread shall we?

     

    In the last 8 or so posts , his erudite contribution to  this scottish politics thread has been

     

    1. The snp are anti english ( musnt forget passively)

     

    2.Support for independance among the young voters is childish and naive and they will grow out of it and become sensible adults.(2 posts)

     

    3.Defence of the tories , there are bad politicians everywhere. (2 posts)

     

    4.Brexit - racist idiots everywhere not just england.

     

    5. Support for scottish independance has reached its peak and the jocks will soon get back to knowing their place and being good little britishers.

     

    6. Darien.

     

    I couldnt be bothered going back any further.

     

    What tired old worn out cliche , myth or propaganda  will be trotted out next.

     

    If thats no trolling this thread then i dont know what is.

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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    1 hour ago, balmaha said:

    Lets have a look at dougals recent contributions to this thread shall we?

     

    In the last 8 or so posts , his erudite contribution to  this scottish politics thread has been

     

    1. The snp are anti english ( musnt forget passively)

     

    2.Support for independance among the young voters is childish and naive and they will grow out of it and become sensible adults.(2 posts)

     

    3.Defence of the tories , there are bad politicians everywhere. (2 posts)

     

    4.Brexit - racist idiots everywhere not just england.

     

    5. Support for scottish independance has reached its peak and the jocks will soon get back to knowing their place and being good little britishers.

     

    6. Darien.

     

    I couldnt be bothered going back any further.

     

    What tired old worn out cliche , myth or propaganda  will be trotted out next.

     

    If thats no trolling this thread then i dont know what is.

    Testing the robustness of the argument and giving a much needed (imo) dissenting voice within the agreed boundaries of debate . The embellishment re 'Jocks' is your own.

    Btw, might be worth learning to spell independence before campaigning for it.

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
    11 hours ago, Dougal said:

    16-24 year olds are notoriously naive in their political views. You can support all sorts of fanciful nonsense when you have no stake in it succeeding or failing but then you grow up and the world cuts through. Get a career, kids and a mortgage and that's the end of your boat rocking days.

    Its got nothing to do with 'Britishness' north or south of the border. Its just the difference between being a kid and a grown up.

    It's around the point that I "grew up" in your estimations that I started to stop being a proper unionist and started a slow build to supporting independence. Having kids, studying economics and a lot of other growing up went on during the process of becoming a non-unionist. This was driven by the sudden realisation that not only was the boat rotten and fit only for sinking, but that it was full of people who couldn't see there was a problem. So it wasn't as much a case of don't rock the boat as don't rock the boat cos it's falling apart; abandon ship!!!!! 

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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    11 minutes ago, CatchMyDrift said:

    It's around the point that I "grew up" in your estimations that I started to stop being a proper unionist and started a slow build to supporting independence. Having kids, studying economics and a lot of other growing up went on during the process of becoming a non-unionist. This was driven by the sudden realisation that not only was the boat rotten and fit only for sinking, but that it was full of people who couldn't see there was a problem. So it wasn't as much a case of don't rock the boat as don't rock the boat cos it's falling apart; abandon ship!!!!! 

    The poll suggests that you're in the minority for your age group though. I guess a further breakdown of that 35-54 group would be useful here.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    It was the unionist arguments put forward again here by Dougal that turned me from ambivalent (when a young lad) to pro-independence.

    Also what turned 2/3 No vs 1/3 Yes 3 years ago into 50/50 for indy tomorrow.

    It's why I generally welcome them.

    I mean Darien? And yes, unionists do genuinely use that in real debate. No kidding. For real.

    If unionist folk want to continue to plough away with stuff that's turned their 33% lead to a 0% one it's perfectly ok with me.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland
    11 hours ago, Dougal said:

    No. It has EVERYTHING to do with popular support among young people for an anti establishment movement (which in the SNPs case has the dual attraction of being relatively new on the scene and at least passively anti English).

    Scrutiny under the spotlight will inevitably throw up enough sleaze, greed and corruption to lose the youth vote over time. 

    Others have pointed out how out of touch this post is, but Dougal is hardly alone with this concept that people become more British and Unionist as they go through life and that Nat IDing as Scottish not British or supporting Scottish Independence is the stuff of youthful naivety. It will be the Unionist establishment that will get the shock if they continue to believe that, because If you look at the historical evidence it is crystal clear that British identity in Scotland does not increase as one gets older.  It just so happens at this juncture the demographic group centered around the baby boomers who were for various reasons the peak of Britishness in Scotland are now old enough to give that appearance. 

    John Smith repeatedly warned in the early 90s that the Tories belligerent unionism would destroy the UK and lead to Scottish Independence, they didn't listen then and by recent evidence still don't get it. Then when the enemy is making mistakes, we should perhaps just keep quiet. 

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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    7 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

    It was the unionist arguments put forward again here by Dougal that turned me from ambivalent to pro-independence.

    Also what turned 2/3 No vs 1/3 Yes 3 years ago into 50/50 for indy tomorrow.

    It's why I generally welcome them.

    I mean Darien? And yes, unionists do genuinely use that in real debate. No kidding. For real.

    I wouldn't particularly reference the Darien scheme if constructing an argument against Indy. There's some interesting parallels sure, but nothing to be serious about. Anyway, It seems for ScotNats it's similar to a general theory I have about debating - the first to mention the Nazis has usually lost the argument! If I recall, I brought Darien up the other day as an addition to some history related posts. It was a genuinely innocent post. I only then learned that it's something of a prickly subject here.

    Look, I know I'm on a hiding to nothing posting in this forum as an English pro Unionist. I have given my reasoning before ie its the best place to learn about the case for indy and learn a bit about the people campaigning for it. I quite enjoy the edge my input can create and I'll take the put downs etc but I'm not just trolling for the sake of it. ScotNats must remember, however strong your convictions, a lot of people dont agree with you. Any organisation which objects to or suppresses dissenting voices starts to look pretty unattractive from the outside and may start to put off or even lose support. The SNP doesn't want to garner a reputation like Scientology or Wahabi Islam. :)

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Sure dougal, but it is unionists which have the weaker arguments. Of that there is no doubt.

    You can't lose a 33% lead unless you are seriously losing the argument.

    Unionists need to take a step back and say 'What are we doing wrong here? Is it maybe references to Nazis?'. 

    Every second person in Scotland backs the SNP / or is happy with them. There's not a family in Scotland which doesn't contain supporters, even if that's a granny or cousin. That's for example why the old 'anti-English' canard backfires consistently; accusing someone's mum of being a a xenophobe isn't a vote winner.

    As I said, I'm fine for you to plough away. It's quite possible you've already swung at least one lurker to yes and every vote counts.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
    1 hour ago, Dougal said:

    The poll suggests that you're in the minority for your age group though. I guess a further breakdown of that 35-54 group would be useful here.

    Polls suggest I'm in a minority overall, so I'm not sure what your point is? Agree on the second part. I would guess that my age group is pro-independence but the 45-54 is pro-union, but as ever I'm happy to be proved completely wrong. You've also got to remember in the wonky world of Scottish demographics that my age group of 35-44 is  substantially less of the population than the 45-54 age group. My age group grew up as Thatcher's children and this is where the presumed split from the union begins. We grew up seeing that Scotland was getting openly shafted via things like the Poll Tax. We saw hope in Tony Blair and New Labour when we started voting and again we got screwed over. Suddenly voting SNP and openly supporting independence didn't look so unusual. 

    My kids are 12, 8 and 6 and even I'm shocked at their stonewall attitude to support for independence and also for the SNP. They stay with my ex so I only see them an average of two nights a week and I don't indoctrinate them or anything like that. All their political stuff they pick up at school and the two eldest repeatedly pass comment on four things political: "Scotland will be independent eventually", "Donald Trump is an @rs£", "Hillary Clinton is a robot" and "It's only old people who don't vote SNP". They have no in depth knowledge when pushed, but these are their beliefs. 

    We'll find out in the next twenty years if your narrative is right, or if our narrative is right. I simply don't see people suddenly switching back to unionism en masse. We'll see. 

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland
    10 minutes ago, CatchMyDrift said:

    Polls suggest I'm in a minority overall, so I'm not sure what your point is? Agree on the second part. I would guess that my age group is pro-independence but the 45-54 is pro-union, but as ever I'm happy to be proved completely wrong. You've also got to remember in the wonky world of Scottish demographics that my age group of 35-44 is  substantially less of the population than the 45-54 age group.

    You can't be certain taking different polls that split on different age groups, but on balance I would expect yes is ahead in the under 50s, and some polls have indicated that Yes is only behind in the over 60s. Certainly people I know in their late 40s or very early 50s  who live in Scotland are strongly Yes, and that fits the politics of the situation as people reaching voting age during the height of Thatcher's government.

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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
    26 minutes ago, skifreak said:

    Certainly people I know in their late 40s or very early 50s  who live in Scotland are strongly Yes, and that fits the politics of the situation as people reaching voting age during the height of Thatcher's government.

    Me for one. My teenage years coincided with Thatcher's government so my political views were probably very much formed watching that unfold. Son of a steel worker too, so watched my father and his workmates being shafted and then thrown on the dole. Blair then ensured I stayed firmly SNP. 

    My English wife also largely votes SNP despite having a totally different opinion of the Thatcher years and,  at least until the EU Ref, not being a supporter of independence.  

    @CatchMyDrift, funnily enough my 9yr old has a similar opinion of Trump as your kids. I often even find myself playing 'devils advocate' and reluctantly saying "yeah but...".

    Edited by Ravelin
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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England

    Is the over 60s No as much an anti Europe thing as pro British? For better or worse, the SNP are making indy2 a Scexit vote more than a vote on the Union.

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