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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    10 minutes ago, Dougal said:

    No idea, different thread anyway I think.

    Anyway, as I said, cheers for reminding me about the Darien Scheme. I was fascinated to read up on it again. There's a warning in there for all of us I guess.

    No, Brexit is for the Scottish politics thread; it's the biggest issue there is right now, i.e. the political calamity south of Gretna.

    Darien is for the Scottish history thread.

    I'd say England going bankrupt / cap in hand to the IMF in 1976 is more relevant, wouldn't you say? A warning for us all there about rapid £ devaluations.

    Quote

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_IMF_Crisis

    The 1976 IMF Crisis was a financial crisis in the United Kingdom [sic England] in 1976 which forced the government to borrow $3.9 billion from the International Monetary Fund,[1] the largest loan ever requested from the IMF.[2]

    The IMF Crisis took place during Jim Callaghan's term as Prime Minister,[3] and caused the Bank of England to temporarily withdraw from the foreign exchange market.[4] After the defeat of the public expenditure white paper in the House of Commons in March 1976 and the resignation of Harold Wilson, many investors became convinced the pound would soon lose value due to inflation. By June 1976, the pound had reached a record low against the dollar.[2]

     

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    3 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

    No, Brexit is for the Scottish politics thread.

    Darien is for the Scottish history thread.

    I'd say England going bankrupt / cap in hand to the IMF in 1976 is more relevant, wouldn't you say? A warning for us all there about rapid £ devaluations.

    Only responding to earlier threads relating to Scottish history, which were a result of the Marr programme.

    Nice deflection btw. I'm guessing Darien is a bit of a dirty word for ScotNats then?

    Is there an SNP approved version of the Darien Scheme? Mel Gibson would probably do the film version for you!

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    Posted
  • Location: Wylye , Wiltshire
  • Location: Wylye , Wiltshire
    20 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

    It's how he describes himself generally. The whole programme actually centred on him going to Scotland after decades in England to 'find out how it had changed / what was going on'. You watched it right?

    He's well known as a strong unionist, ergo British. Or are you saying he doesn't see himself as British? Evidence please!

    ---

    Marr seems to be kinda British in identity:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007nn9k

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Marr's_History_of_Modern_Britain

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ztg00

    https://nudge-book.com/blog/2015/10/we-british-the-poetry-of-a-people-by-andrew-marr/

    We-British-360x560.jpg

    So....because  are a Scotman writing about Britain....you must be a Unionist and therefore somehow "unScottish".

    I suppose if you define Scottish as being simply incompatible with being, at the same time a Unionist, then there seems to be about 50 % of people who live in Scotland  who fail that definition of Scottishness.

    On the the other hand there are clearly millions of Scots who do not find the notion incompatible and I suspect Marr is one of them 

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    17 minutes ago, Arthur said:

    So....because  are a Scotman writing about Britain....you must be a Unionist and therefore somehow "unScottish".

    I suppose if you define Scottish as being simply incompatible with being, at the same time a Unionist, then there seems to be about 50 % of people who live in Scotland  who fail that definition of Scottishness.

    On the the other hand there are clearly millions of Scots who do not find the notion incompatible and I suspect Marr is one of them 

    Erm, why do you think being British makes someone less Scottish? That's a bit blood and soil surely? Sorry, but I disagree with you here.

    National identity is what we feel inside. It's a choice. Marr feels at least in a strong part British, like my best mate / best man. You shouldn't attack that in the way you seem to be.

    Scotland is in majority Scottish in identity, although British, at least in part, is a significant minority. It's just the way it is. Of course that will play a role in politics / viewpoints.

    And you shouldn't put an identity on people. I simply use the census where people were asked that and responded freely, not election / referendum results where other factors such as the economy come into play. I doubt around half of English people would self identify as European for example, even though they voted to be that.

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
    15 minutes ago, Dougal said:

    Only responding to earlier threads relating to Scottish history, which were a result of the Marr programme.

    Nice deflection btw. I'm guessing Darien is a bit of a dirty word for ScotNats then?

    Is there an SNP approved version of the Darien Scheme? Mel Gibson would probably do the film version for you!

    I'd be surprised if more than 20% of the population know anything at all about the Darien Scheme. A lot of folk in Glasgow probably think it's a housing estate in Dundee. I doubt there's an SNP approved version (please post a link if you find one) but there's certainly a unionist version of it ;) 

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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    9 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

     

    National identity is what we feel inside. It's a choice. 

    There are some, of course, who feel such hatred towards outsiders that their national identity is defined by what they are not.

    There are many who fiercely wave the English, Scottish, Welsh, NI, Irish and Union flags for whom this is true.

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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    8 minutes ago, CatchMyDrift said:

    I'd be surprised if more than 20% of the population know anything at all about the Darien Scheme. A lot of folk in Glasgow probably think it's a housing estate in Dundee. I doubt there's an SNP approved version (please post a link if you find one) but there's certainly a unionist version of it ;) 

    Arghhhh!!

    You said the D word!:D

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    4 minutes ago, Dougal said:

    There are some, of course, who feel such hatred towards outsiders that their national identity is defined by what they are not.

    There are many who fiercely wave the English, Scottish, Welsh, NI, Irish and Union flags for whom this is true.

    Sure. I was very proud Scotland voted to be part of a greater union with free movement twice in a row. 

    And what you say is a big reason I fear Brexit.

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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    4 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

    Sure. I was very proud Scotland voted to be part of a greater union with free movement twice in a row. 

    Of course we in England looked to see how the Scots were going to vote and did the opposite.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    5 minutes ago, Dougal said:

    Of course we in England looked to see how the Scots were going to vote and did the opposite.

    You can actually be quite witty when you're not trolling.:D

    We're probably both second guessing each other. Scotland likely wanted brexit, but thought England was for that secretly, so voted Remain. Meanwhile, down south, England wanted Remain, but figured Scots wanted that so voted Brexit.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    As Marr mentioned last night, the discovery of North Sea oil busted the Unionist myth of too wee / too poor. Reugritgating stuff about the Darien Scheme usually is some sort of desperate attempt at a too wee / too poor to be independent standpoint! So perhaps not surprising that Indy supporters are inclined to roll their eyes at the mere mention of the word...

    Of course if the 'too wee, too poor' argument actually had any validity that would be the most damning indictment of the Union possible, so I don't really know why unionists persist with the argument that Scotland couldn't stand on it's own two feet.

    Of course during 2014 a significant Better Together tactic at the local level was to derail potential public meetings and debates by refusing to put up anyone to make a case for No. Like we have witnessed with the faux outrage in the Scottish MSM today with regards the Express vs Wings spat - accusing Yes of silencing debate and the SNP of being a one party state is pure deflection from the fact that for the Better Together cause, they knew shutting down debate where possible was important to maintaining the union. They would like Scotland to be treated like a mushroom farm, kept in the dark and fed §h!te. The more the issues were debated in depth, the more people engaged in the referendum and made their own efforts to research the issues involved, the more the support for Yes crept up.

    The influence of the MSM is stronger in the older generations and in rural areas where internet connectivity is poor(er), it has been commentated by people at the Highland count in September 2014 that there appeared to be a decent correlation between quality of internet connectivity and the Yes vote in the Highlands, with No strongest where internet connectivity was poorest. We'll never be able fully research this because detailed breakdowns of votes by locality have never been released, which is a shame really as it would have been fascinating to study that from a politics and IT geek perspective!

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
    41 minutes ago, Dougal said:

    Arghhhh!!

    You said the D word!:D

    I know, we try not to talk about it but every now and then Dundee pops up in conversation :D 

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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
    21 minutes ago, CatchMyDrift said:

    I know, we try not to talk about it but every now and then Dundee pops up in conversation :D 

    Disgraceful comment,  reported.

    ;-)

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    Posted
  • Location: glasgow
  • Weather Preferences: snowy winters hot summers
  • Location: glasgow
    10 hours ago, scottish skier said:

    No, Brexit is for the Scottish politics thread; it's the biggest issue there is right now, i.e. the political calamity south of Gretna.

    Darien is for the Scottish history thread.

    I'd say England going bankrupt / cap in hand to the IMF in 1976 is more relevant, wouldn't you say? A warning for us all there about rapid £ devaluations.

     

    Sorry boys and girls , no had a chance to post much recently.

    As ss points out darien is one for the history thread.

    Isnt it amazing though how all the old britnat mythology and propaganda gets trotted out ,ad nauseum ,  just like before the last indyref. 

    I know its no the history thread , but just  to let any of my fellow scots know about a lot of the work by historians such as tam devine and especially michael lynch has emphatically annihilated myths like darien.

    It will take a long while though to destroy the myths of the" british" establishment and their thousand year reich. Its not massed armies and shining victories that have kept these people in power , but propaganda like darien etc etc.

    From the russians to the chinese americans and many other nations to individuals like stalin and hitler , all have expressed an admiration for british propaganda and copied their techniques.

    I believe even vladimir putin , when quizzed by western media about russian "propaganda" ,sarcastically quipped that he learned all he knows from the british .

    Anyway if you dont have time to read a lot of the stuff by various historians over darien , its best summed up in this old link from the tarff advertiser( posted by bella and newsnet amongst others as well)

     

    you might want to bookmark it for copy and paste purposes , it normally shuts down the darien myth sharpish

     

    http://tarffadvertiser.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/toxic-union.html  

     

     

    Quote

     

    Myth number one – Scotland was bankrupt in 1707.

     

    Well , no, it was not.

     

    The Burghs were cash rich and the Scottish economy in the decade prior to 1707 was growing at 2.5% per annum according to research by the historian Michael Lynch.

     So who was bankrupt? Well that was the Scottish land owners who had mortgaged their lands to fund the Darien Scheme and if they had not been bailed out by Westminster, the Burgh middle classes would have taken control of Scotland – something the English Government could not allow.

    The ‘Whig’ English Government had also been buying off the Jacobite Lords in Scotland to ensure the Hanoverian succession at the cost of a £1 million a year ( £1 billion in today’s money). Further the Jacobite Lords were playing the ‘we could ask the French for help’ card which meant  ‘Horse Guards’ had to keep English Regiments on the Scottish Border that were needed by Marlborough in continental Europe to prop up England’s war against France.

     

    What actually happened was the incoming Tory Government of the day decided they were not gaining anything as Defoe quickly reported that most of the ‘Jacobite Lords’ were unlikely to support James’ VIIth claim on the thrones of Scotland and England so shifted the bribes from the ‘Jacobite Lords’ to the Tory inclined Scottish Lowland Lords who were in trouble with their Darien mortgage repayments coming due and being in danger of defaulting – the ‘parcel o rogues’ of Burns poem.

    The English Parliament needed the Union to secure their Northern border once and for all and created pressure to persuade the Scots that ‘Union’ was a good idea – one of which was siding with the Spanish to ensure Darien failed and another passing laws to exclude Scottish traders from all England’s colonies by imposing excessive duties.

     

     

    Edited by balmaha
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    Posted
  • Location: glasgow
  • Weather Preferences: snowy winters hot summers
  • Location: glasgow

    further to quickly add , if anyone wants a laugh about "scottish " propaganda , read the story myths and legends behind the stone of destiny.

    In typical brazen scottish style and impudence , it tells the story of the ancient "celtic" jet black stone block used in the coronation of our kings since the days of fergus , brought by the celtic tribes allegedly from the middle east , carved in celtic pictures.

    Fast forward to Edward the first and his pillaging of scotland and its national emblems like the stone , which was taken to westminster and used by the anglo british kings for over 700 years.

    The story goes the guardian priests swapped it for a cesspit lid just before edwards soldiers took it.

    now i dont know if this is true , but having heard the description of the original stone of destiny and seen pictures of what sat in westminster all those centuries , it looks nothing like  what was originally described.

    Certainly it appears to be a block of red perth sandstone rather than some mystical stone from the middle east. We also know edwards soldiers went back many times to search again and again for it , so he must have had suspicions.

    Is it no funny that the anglo british monarchs have been getting crowned for 7 centuries on a lavvie lid:D

     

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    Posted
  • Location: glasgow
  • Weather Preferences: snowy winters hot summers
  • Location: glasgow
    8 hours ago, CatchMyDrift said:

    I know, we try not to talk about it but every now and then Dundee pops up in conversation :D 

    LMFAO catch quality :D

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
    10 hours ago, skifreak said:

    You can get banned for such outrageous language you know! 

    Not if you're a unionist, in which case anything goes? In fairness at least some journalists came out with support for the Rev. It's the ones who revelled in the suspension who I worry about. They would have been happy to see him silenced completely which regardless of your viewpoint would have been wrong. 

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Something to look forward to as part of the UK.

    Quote

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-37347990

    Fraser of Allander: Scotland's budget 'could face £1.6bn cut'

    Some public services in Scotland could be facing budget cuts of almost a fifth over the next four years, according to a study by economic forecasters.

    The Fraser of Allander Institute said its "worst case scenario" was a £1.6bn cut - 6% - to the Scottish government's overall budget by 2020/21.

    Even under more optimistic scenarios, the Scottish budget is still projected to fall in real terms...

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Another British great!

    Quote

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37341095

    UK one of the most unequal countries, says Oxfam

    The richest 1% of the UK population owns more than 20 times the wealth of the poorest fifth, according to Oxfam.

    That made Britain one of the most unequal countries in the developed world and contributed to the vote for Brexit, the charity said...

     

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL

    Latest Scottish Independence poll show No still in the lead by 53% to 47%. Who are these No voters?, I honestly do not know one No voter who openly admits to voting No.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-support-for-scottish-independence-higher-than-2014-1-4228443

    Even after Brexit, if we cannot get more than 50% to vote Yes, then I honestly give up.

    Still feel that Nicola has to go for it. Maybe the longer she waits and as the economy worsens people will see the light.

     

     

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    It's another poll showing a swing to Yes since brexit; 4-6% from what I can see.

    However, I'd treat it with caution. TNS face to face only has a history of getting it right as the day draws close.

    In between it's a bit wild with a lot of noise.

    We're a couple of years away from any iref. I'd take 47% Yes to kick off iref#2 with. A hell of a lot better than 30% like we had last time.

    On average, Yes is ahead. I get 50.6% Y / 49.4% No adding in TNS.

    I suspect it's mainly those that panicked at the last minute who've now gone solid Yes at broken promises.

    Most important thing to remember is most people don't realise how much of a train crash Brexit will be.

    Everyone's towards the back of the train right now as it heads towards the broken bridge. Meanwhile the Tories are in the cab clueless as to what to do, ready to stab each other if anyone tries a plan that's not exactly how they want it.

    Judge what's going to happen by the shrillness of the ScotBrit MSM, UK Scottish parties etc; they've been going pure batpoo crazy recently. Ruth Davidson is case in point; gone from leaving the EU being a total disaster to mentally screaming 'It will be ok. Britian will be great again honestly....aaaarggggh!'. 

    Folk with intelligence know the greatest socio-economic and political disaster in British history is unfolding slowly right now. It's both a symptom of the end of GB and a cause. We're in the last days of Rome. The next sign to look for is the Tories beginning to split; you can see this simmering. It's why there is no brexit plan; that would trigger the split.

    However, for Joe public, the hysterics of the post brexit panic have calmed and so they're a bit nervous about any immeadiate boat rocking. Many don't appreciate the crapstorm that's coming as yet.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie

    A more optimistic view of the poll....

    http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/drama-as-tns-poll-reveals-that-brexit.html

    Although James can put a positive spin on just about anything when he tries.

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