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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
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  • Location: The Garden of England

    David Davis vs Guy Verhofstadt will mean hard line negotiating and no compromise ie no progress, which is no good to anyone.

    I don't think any of us can say with any conviction where Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Union or the EU will be in 3, 5, 10 years.

    But, I'm guessing Europe will be a strange Venn diagram of some shared interests and agreements between groups of nations. It will be for each nation to negotiate it's place within that.

    Despite being a fan of the Union I don't blame some Scots for trying to break it up. It's doubtful whether they're getting any benefit from it anyway. I am a bit perplexed about the over the top love in with the EU though and Scotland's apparent heavy reliance on the EU as part of its exit strategy from the Union. The EU has major problems going forward and its doubtful it will exist in anything like its current form in a decades time.

    The benefit of Independence could be avoiding short to medium term  uncertainty caused by brexit. The cost of Independence could be getting embroiled in the steady decline of a dysfunctional EU.

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    What was anyones thoughts on the Marr programme on BBC 2 tonight? Somewhat better than I thought it might have been, but I'd say to Andrew Marr it's a bit too late to try to shore up the Scottish Labour Party and I thought the second half of the programme over credited Labour with delivering the Scottish Parliament, making it seem that the plan for what was implemented in 1999 came about from John Smith post 94.

    It completely ignored the major role of the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the role within it of the Lib Dems, Unions, Civic groups, Church groups etc, implementing the conventions blueprint was a manifesto commitment of both Labour and the Lib Dems in 1992. The 1992 election was a significant event in the movement of many people to supporting if not independence then home rule within the UK. The Lib Dems most significant achievement within the convention was getting Labour to agree to proportional representation and keeping the pressure on Labour to honour the pledge for an Additional Member PR system.

    The early years of the Parliament obviously could not be covered in detail in this show given in the length of time period it covered, but it missed something that I think was of significant importance in the SNP majority in 2011. The Lib Dems not budging on their manifesto commitment to Single Transferable Vote for local council elections after the 2003 Scottish General Election. That lead to the 2007 local elections being STV, that blew away lots of tired old Labour one party 'statelets' across Scotland, it was a wind of change that opened the doors to a big shift for the 2011 parliament election.

    Will be watching next week, be interesting to see what sentiment we get from Marr, a strong Unionist on the predicament of a forced choice between the EU and EEA vs the UK.

    Edited by skifreak
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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
    1 hour ago, skifreak said:

    What was anyones thoughts on the Marr programme on BBC 2 tonight? 

    Just watched it (recorded) and thought it was OK. Certainly could have been worse. Necessarily simplistic given the timescale they were trying to cover in an hour's programme but probably a decent enough summary. Quite why they started the story in the 50s though I'm not sure, a time when post war British sentiment was probably running at its highest. Scottish 'nationalism' didn't start there, it existed well before that, even if politically it was expressed though other parties as the SNP didn't exist. Ironically enough it was Tony Blair that alluded to that when being asked about the decision to hold the referendum in 97.

    It'll be interesting to see how they cover a much shorter period next week. 

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    The 1950s were probably chosen as that's when Britishness first really appeared as an identity in Scotland; in the post-war consensus period.

    As I've talked about before, Britishness as a component of identity peaks in those born in 1944. It steadily reduces in those born before and after that.

    By contrast, Britishness in England peaked during the Thatcher/Major years when the Tories pushed it as a counter to growing Scottish nationalism.

    It's why when you watch old war movies they talk about England (and the 'Scots' sometimes), not Britain.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Beverley, East Yorks. (2 metres a.s.l.)
  • Weather Preferences: Something good in all four seasons
  • Location: Near Beverley, East Yorks. (2 metres a.s.l.)

    Interesting to read what folks here .. the far more knowledgeable / SNP supporters .. thought of Andrew Marr's prog.

    I thought it very well done, interesting and informative.  looking forward to part 2.

    B. :)

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I wonder when they'll make England And The Battle For Britain.

    Up here in Scotland we're totally mystified at how England's politics have diverged so much from the norm / centre, leading to the brexit vote and likely end of the UK.

    Could help us understand it all.:)

    EDIT. I'm sure it would be of interest to other European audiences too. After all, everyone is looking at England and thinking WTF?

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
    1 hour ago, scottish skier said:

    The 1950s were probably chosen as that's when Britishness first really appeared as an identity in Scotland; in the post-war consensus period.

    As I've talked about before, Britishness as a component of identity peaks in those born in 1944. It steadily reduces in those born before and after that.

    By contrast, Britishness in England peaked during the Thatcher/Major years when the Tories pushed it as a counter to growing Scottish nationalism.

    It's why when you watch old war movies they talk about England (and the 'Scots' sometimes), not Britain.

    Do you think the pushing of British nationalism has peaked? I don't think it has, but that's a different thing from how British nationalistic people are which is what you are talking about. 

    We've just witnessed a very top down government funded push for Great Britain at the Olympics, there has been some "chat" about Great British branding on otherwise Scottish products alongside a surge in general Great British branding (partly fuelled by the Olympics) and it does seem that TV is full of "Great British" programming. The emphasis in the above seems to be the "Great" part, as if they need to add that to convince themselves how fabby they are. I've been at my Dad's overnight and I've been looking at a lot of old newspapers and magazines (1960s to early 90s) and it's very striking that you'll struggle to find any mention of "Great", it's always simply "Britain". A cynic would point out that those who think their country is better than or greater than others is a nationalist... :p It does make you wonder why we're being fed an increasingly nationalist agenda...perhaps we're missing a trick not doing the same in reverse, perhaps we're not nationalist enough?? 

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    12 minutes ago, CatchMyDrift said:

    Do you think the pushing of Britishness nationalism has peaked? I don't think it has, but that's a different thing from how British nationalistic people are which is what you are talking about. 

    Of of course not; it's reaching a crescendo as you'd expect it to before the final collapse of the UK.

    However, the post war Britishness peak in Scotland didn't come from British being pushed on people, but because British seemed like a good thing. British had got through the wars together and now it was providing an NHS, welfare, new homes to replace the slums, jobs in British nationalised industries, state pension etc. Britishness looked after you and was a solidarity shared across the UK. That's why people in Scotland started to feel British.

    You can never push an identity on people; no amount of propaganda will achieve that. In fact such things are more likely to backfire / be counterproductive.

    For people to feel British, British needs to offer something good, shared etc. Something to make people feel proud of it, that they want to be part of that project. 

    Britain doesn't offer much any more. Well, not much that's attractive anyway. Benefits sanctions, poundland workfare, NHS privatisation, zero hours contracts, UKIP / brexit etc just don't compare to the post war social solidarity boom years.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Beverley, East Yorks. (2 metres a.s.l.)
  • Weather Preferences: Something good in all four seasons
  • Location: Near Beverley, East Yorks. (2 metres a.s.l.)
    28 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

    I wonder when they'll make England And The Battle For Britain.

    Up here in Scotland we're totally mystified at how England's politics have diverged so much from the norm / centre, leading to the brexit vote and likely end of the UK.

    Could help us understand it all.:)

    EDIT. I'm sure it would be of interest to other European audiences too. After all, everyone is looking at England and thinking WTF?

    That sounded like a snarky swipe at me, my comment.

    OK. Thought I was being polite enough and taking an interest.

    I'll keep from your thread in future SS.

    B.

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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
    1 hour ago, Beverley Lass said:

    That sounded like a snarky swipe at me, my comment.

    Didn't come across like that to me.

    I thought it was just a little tongue in cheek swipe at the BBC seemingly making the assumption that it's Scottish politics that's changed and that English politics haven't. Marr did sort of touch on the birth of that change i.e the death of John Smith and the subsequent rise of Tony Blair and 'New Labour'. As Marr said, it would have been unlikely that PM Smith would ever have entered the Iraq war, nor would he have pursued as right wing an agenda as Blair. Blair has as much to do with the 'rise of the SNP' as Thatcher did, maybe even more actually.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    1 hour ago, Beverley Lass said:

    That sounded like a snarky swipe at me, my comment.

    OK. Thought I was being polite enough and taking an interest.

    I'll keep from your thread in future SS.

    B.

    It wasn't intended as a sarky snipe. Sorry if it came across that way.

    It was a genuine attempt to turn the situation around. 

    Sending an intrepid reporter north to find out what's going on in Scotland suggests something abnormal is happening in Scotland. Nothing abnormal going on at all. In fact Scotland's the most british part of Britain now in terms of preserving the post-war consensus which is what really made post-imperial Britain / made Scotland feel British for the first time in hundreds of years of union.

    Arguably, it's England that's behaving the most strangely with Brexit and the rise of more extreme parties like UKIP. SNP are rather boringly run of the mill centrist social democratic; ten a penny in Europe.

    However, the UK media will not see it that way, but rather think it's Scotland being odd.

    ---

    In terms of left-right balance, Scotland hasn't changed at all since the 1950's; it's still largely centrist. That used to be expressed by 50/50 Labour/Tory (One nation) roughly. Now it's expressed by 50% for a centrist party.

    Support for being in the EU is, within variance, identical to what it was in 1975; only a few% higher.

    Scotland hasn't changed at all really.

    What has happened is that England has changed. It ripped Britishness out of Scotland Ruthlessly as it ended the post war consensus, taking all the british things out of Scotland, from nationalised industries to the welfare state. Then, to try and repair the damage of that / hold the UK together, it grudgingly gave devolution. Then we have Labour moving massively to the right, pushing the Tories even further in that direction. This has helped spawn UKIP and rising anti-EU / immigrant sentiment, culminating in brexit.

    Meanwhile, Scotland has stayed still looking on aghast.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    I liked the first part of the programme about Scotland being a major part of the driving force behind in the British Empire. Something that has been played down somewhat and disassociated with on this thread and elsewhere.

    To me the Empire happened and all Countries within the Union played their own parts. 

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Beverley, East Yorks. (2 metres a.s.l.)
  • Weather Preferences: Something good in all four seasons
  • Location: Near Beverley, East Yorks. (2 metres a.s.l.)

    Ok, fair enough, thanks Ravelin and SS for replies.

    After reading up more and watching TV docus, I changed my ideas re. the EU ref. and ended up voting Remain .

    I like to do the same to try to understand differing views re. the Scottish Indy vote(s).

    *Of course I haven't a vote in that !

    Andrew Marr is a Glaswegian Scot.  Though I think someone here said they know he favours the Union.

    B. :)

     

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    11 minutes ago, kar999 said:

    I liked the first part of the programme about Scotland being a major part of the driving force behind in the British Empire. Something that has been played down somewhat and disassociated with on this thread and elsewhere.

    To me the Empire happened and all Countries within the Union played their own parts. 

    I don't think anyone has ever played that down.

    Only said that the empire isn't missed in Scotland* because it was England's empire primarily, simply due to force of numbers. The capital of the Empire was London, not Edinburgh.

    Remember, the word British is a very new thing. If you went back 100 years, people in Scotland were not British, they were Scottish. The UK was not seen as one country at all. That only really developed during the second world war and the post war consensus period.

    Prior to that politics was very much dominated as to whether Scotland should continue to be part of England's empire. After all, that's what English people called it / at least considered it as. Watch old war movies and you'll see.

    ---

    *To clarify, Scottish people don't miss it, but those who identify as British may do so. The orange sash groups etc. However, Scotland is primarily Scottish in identity first and foremost, to rosy tinted empire glasses are not that common. 

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    7 minutes ago, Beverley Lass said:

    Andrew Marr is a Glaswegian Scot.  Though I think someone here said they know he favours the Union.

    Marr seems very British. I would suspect he'd at least put 'Equally Scottish and British' on the census / if asked by the SSAS the moreno question.

    You can be one, the other, both equally, more one than the other... All possible.

    Marr definitely is British though in identity, unlike the majority of Scots. And that will affect his politics.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    Empire is a bit like Slavery which Scotland, particularly in Jamaica, was also heavily involved in. We were all party to it at the time and it lined the pockets of Scots and English alike and is a part of both of our countries history whether we like it or not.

    It doesn't mean it's anything to be proud of though.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    14 minutes ago, kar999 said:

    Empire is a bit like Slavery which Scotland, particularly in Jamaica, was also heavily involved in. We were all party to it at the time and it lined the pockets of Scots and English alike and is a part of both of our countries history whether we like it or not.

    It doesn't mean it's anything to be proud of though.

    No, that's not true. It's the brits that supported the empire; the little Scotlanders were against it. While Scotland voted to join the UK, it was 62% Yes, meaning there was a lot of opposition in parliament, and this was just for the very few who could vote. The people on the streets were never asked and they'd have said no to joining the empire. They rioted for months in response to the treaty of union; took the army to calm things down.

    I was never party to the British empire, yet was born into the end of it, so don't say 'we were all party to it'. My grandparents were very much against it.

    Nothing has changed today. Unionists brits tend to be much more in favour of a big strong Britain, punching above its weight on the world stage, and they look back with pride on the empire. Scots by contrast favour it as a small, social democratic nation with close links to Europe, either as EU or EEA. They couldn't care less about the empire or are actually pretty ashamed of it.

    I've never met a Scot (not british) who wanted Scotland to be a big, powerful, imperial nation.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    I'm not sure why you are being so defensive. I'm talking about history nothing to do with the Union, today's events, the EU or people's thinking about imperialism now.

    Scots and Scotland played their own part, however big or small, in the Empire and slavery. 

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    Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
    3 minutes ago, kar999 said:

    I'm not sure why you are being so defensive. I'm talking about history nothing to do with the Union, today's events, the EU or people's thinking about imperialism now.

    Scots and Scotland played their own part, however big or small, in the Empire and slavery. 

    It's also true that many of the moneyed classes got most of their original wealth from slavery - Scots, English, Welsh and Irish. Probably about the only time in history when we really were 'all in this together'?

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    16 minutes ago, kar999 said:

    I'm not sure why you are being so defensive. I'm talking about history nothing to do with the Union, today's events, the EU or people's thinking about imperialism now.

    Scots and Scotland played their own part, however big or small, in the Empire and slavery. 

    I'm not being defensive, I'm being factual.

    Brits in Scotland played their part in the empire. They were the ones that wanted Scotland to join the empire, not the Scots. The Scots / people who didn't want to be British were against it. This is glaringly self-evident.

    Just as e.g. people who don't vote Tory can't be held responsible for Tory policies, so people who didn't want the empire don't have responsibility for its activities.

    It's the same for the little Englanders; they did not see themselves as British and were against British imperialism / the UK union.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
    29 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

    It's also true that many of the moneyed classes got most of their original wealth from slavery - Scots, English, Welsh and Irish. Probably about the only time in history when we really were 'all in this together'?

    Yep..may of todays stately piles and monuments in England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales were build from the spoils of slavery and the Empire. At least some generate tourist income now even though their history is somewhat stained.

    Edited by kar999
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    31 minutes ago, Ed Stone said:

    It's also true that many of the moneyed classes got most of their original wealth from slavery - Scots, English, Welsh and Irish. Probably about the only time in history when we really were 'all in this together'?

    Quite.

    The parcel of rouges in a nation.

    The average Scot knew joining the English empire would damage Scotland economically and socially, so were against it. And they were right; a history of poverty and depopulation followed. Scotland was nearly 20% of the UK population when it joined; now it's 8%. The empire didn't benefit Scots; it's why they emigrated to other countries in search of a better life.

    the_proclaimers-letter_from_america_s.jp

    It benefited the select few brits; the parcel of rouges. The idea that Scots joyously embraced the British empire, enthusiastically helped build it, and grew rich from it is just utter dog biscuits.

    Nope, like in England, only the top few% benefited.

    You only have to google pictures of 'glasgow slums' to see what life was like for most in the 'second city of the empire'.

    It was miserable, disease-ridden abject poverty.

    That's why at the peak of empire, as Scots increasingly were enfranchised, they started to vote for home rule / independence. 1913 home rule bill:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29048884

     

     

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL

    Quite enjoyed Marr's programme last night, I think what struck me most is how Marr is a good example of how he became consumed by the Westminster bubble and had not a clue what was going in the cities of his birth and education. This remains the case many Westminster who continue to ask why Scots will not get back in their box and keep their mouths shut.

    As Scottish Skier alludes to though, it is not Scotland that has changed but England.

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    Another positive step for tidal stream renewable electricity in Scotland - Nicola Sturgeon to unveil the first tidal turbine completed at the Nigg fabrication yard in the inner Moray Firth: 

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-37321639

    It's planned to gradually expand this to nearly 300 turbines, and of course the most significant thing about it is that the electricity supply from such facilities is predictable over the very long term, that's something of a huge asset in renewable energy. Scotland had opportunities to lead the world when wind started to take off, hopefully lessons have been learnt and now that we have a Scottish Government things will turn out differently this time. Keeping IP and fabrication here is key to really making the most out of a very young emerging industry.

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    Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

    ^^ Good news indeed, SF...And good to see that the old place is still up-and-running.:D

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