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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
    8 hours ago, Bristle boy said:

    On mobile in The Algarve, so unfortunately not.

    Apparently she's gone lukewarm on continued EU membership for Scotland.

    C'mon dude you can't say something like that and not back it up with proper stats ;) 

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    9 hours ago, interested & confused said:

     

    It is the UK Government, not England, that wants you to go along with how the majority of the people in the UK voted.

    You can shout at a room full of Scots that a Government made up almost entirely of Tory MPs from England is a UK government all you like; it's not going to make it seem more inclusive.

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    11 hours ago, Ravelin said:

    The key word was 'when' i.e. future tense. @scottish skier wasn't talking about the EU Ref per se but a possible future situation.

    The English voted for independence from the EU. Scotland didn't.

    English politicians past and present of stature warned England that a vote for brexit would likely mean and end to the UK. English voters said they didn't mind that at the ballot box.

    If the Brexit ballot had been about the UK only and not presented a possible justification for Scottish indy, the likes of Cameron, Major, Blair, Brown etc would not have warned people about that.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    11 hours ago, interested & confused said:

    There are people who voted for Brexit in most of the UK, including Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland, what about them?

    And the people of Scotland who want Scottish independence / another iref? What about them? They got a greater share of the vote in 2014 than the brexiters got in June. Polling has them 14 points higher than the June brexit vote in Scotland.

    The UK electorate gave the Tories a mandate to hold the EUref. The Scottish government got a much larger mandate to hold another iref in the event of brexit; two in fact recently (2015 and 2016 backed up by a very firm No to leaving the EU in June).

    That's democracy.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    10 hours ago, NorthernRab said:

    It was in the Times. Interesting methodology in the poll to say the least.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/davidson-on-a-high-as-tories-still-edge-labour-vnsnhqt6l

    Not sure what you mean about the methodology? I assume they've made some sort of change? Can't read the Times.

    They continue to exclude the most pro-indy 16-17 year olds even though they are now allowed to vote in all Scottish elections / referendums. No idea why, but it hits the SNP/Greens/Yes numbers.

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    Posted
  • Location: Ashford, Kent
  • Weather Preferences: Over 18C please!
  • Location: Ashford, Kent
    1 hour ago, scottish skier said:

    And the people of Scotland who want Scottish independence / another iref? What about them?

    The UK electorate gave the Tories a mandate to hold the EUref. The Scottish government got a much larger mandate to hold another iref in the event of brexit; two in fact recently (2015 and 2016 backed up by a very firm No to leaving the EU in June).

     

    I completely agree, no argument with that as I keep saying, here.

     

    1 hour ago, scottish skier said:

    That's democracy.

    Yes, but democracy applies to England as well, so we voted how we wanted, as you did. No one should be expected to change how they vote in order to please others.

     

    1 hour ago, scottish skier said:
      11 hours ago, interested & confused said:

    There are people who voted for Brexit in most of the UK, including Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland, what about them?

    I asked the question, because it was the only 'the rise of the English' that caused the problem.

    If everyone that voted for Brexit in all of the UK, had been 'blamed' I wouldn't have asked

    Sorry, this has taken up so much of your thread, wasn't my intention.
     

     

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    13 minutes ago, interested & confused said:

    Yes, but democracy applies to England as well, so we voted how we wanted, as you did. No one should be expected to change how they vote in order to please others.

     

    I asked the question, because it was the only 'the rise of the English' that caused the problem.

    If everyone that voted for Brexit in all of the UK, had been 'blamed' I wouldn't have asked

    Sorry, this has taken up so much of your thread, wasn't my intention.
     

     

     

    I agree. People in Scotland shouldn't have to accept the will of voters in England on brexit, just as voters in England shouldn't have to vote to please Scotland.

    I don't think anyone said that the English had 'caused a problem', only that they voted for Brexit knowing it could end the UK / be a vote for English indy from both the EU and UK. That doesn't mean they should not have voted for Brexit, only that they knew the end of the UK was a potential result of that and it didn't sufficiently deter them. The UK ending will be as a result of diverging views north and south of the border; and what is right for each nation is what each decides is right.

    If Scotland had voted for brexit too, we wouldn't be having this conversation most likely.

    Not a problem; it's a quiet Saturday morning. 

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    The issue below will get raised again so with the falling UK pound I wonder what the current views are... 

    Ms Sturgeon has a puzzle to solve over currency; it was an issue in 2014, and it's another of those problems she'd hoped to have more time to mull over.

    Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz, a member of both Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon's economic advisory teams, has conceded that the proposal to share the pound with the UK "may have been a mistake". Mr Salmond similarly says the Yes side were "gazumped" on the matter.

    The first minister has has insisted that "the pound is Scotland's currency", but Mr Robertson has cautiously welcomed the idea of discussing a "Scottish pound", while fellow MP Joanna Cherry has suggested that Scotland might not want to be tied to the pound if it sinks post-Brexit.

    There could be an upside to this; Mr Stiglitz reckons a floating Scottish currency could boost the economy and potentially smooth Scotland's entry to the EU, by cutting its deficit - which is currently far higher than that required of new members.

    But would the EU let Scotland "join" (or Remain) without taking the Euro as its currency, another common rule for new members? On the flip side of the coin, would the UK allow independent Scotland to keep the pound? 

    Edited by kar999
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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256
    4 minutes ago, kar999 said:

    The issue below will get raised again so with the falling UK pound i wonder what the current views are... 

    Ms Sturgeon has a puzzle to solve over currency; it was an issue in 2014, and it's another of those problems she'd hoped to have more time to mull over.

    Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz, a member of both Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon's economic advisory teams, has conceded that the proposal to share the pound with the UK "may have been a mistake". Mr Salmond similarly says the Yes side were "gazumped" on the matter.

    The first minister has has insisted that "the pound is Scotland's currency", but Mr Robertson has cautiously welcomed the idea of discussing a "Scottish pound", while fellow MP Joanna Cherry has suggested that Scotland might not want to be tied to the pound if it sinks post-Brexit.

    There could be an upside to this; Mr Stiglitz reckons a floating Scottish currency could boost the economy and potentially smooth Scotland's entry to the EU, by cutting its deficit - which is currently far higher than that required of new members.

    But would the EU let Scotland "join" (or Remain) without taking the Euro as its currency, another common rule for new members? On the flip side of the coin, would the UK allow independent Scotland to keep the pound? [/]

    Whatever we do (militant), the banks will shaft us. 

    But I'd hazard a guess that a Scottish pound would be subject to more fluctuations wrt the Euro and Brexit pound than would be healthy for the economy. Plus yet again more costs of administration (thanks, say the wbankers)...

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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    You never know HC you might want to poach the financial sector when rUK loses its EU passporting. Love them or hate them, banks generate a lot of jobs, taxes and GDP. 

    Edited by kar999
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    As I've said before, I'd like to see the £ Scots decoupled from the £ English again. The £ England just isn't worth what it used to be and is pretty unstable as a currency. It's lost that 'trusty £ in your pocket' feel.

    Also, the refusal of the rUK to accept Scotland helping service UK debt last time pretty much killed the currency union idea, and 'one in one out of the EU' puts it to bed.

    Fresh, debt free start with the £Scots. Could be tied to the £ England initially, then free floating or pegged to the Euro like the Danes. Whatever suits. Most countries have their own currencies, from minnows to huge federal superpowers; it's not an arduous think to set up.

    Incidentally, in the 2014 campaign, the orchestrated (including with the BBC) 'We'll take yer poond aff ye!' #OsborneinEdinburghgate saw the biggest single shift to Yes in the polls of the whole campaign; one that never reversed. It was a tipping point for many soft no / maybes. If we used the English £ here it might have worked. But it was madness to try and claim England would deny Scotland the use of the £Scots; that was always going to backfire badly.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
    30 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

     

    Fresh, debt free start with the £Scots. Could be tied to the £ England initially, then free floating or pegged to the Euro like the Danes. Whatever suits. Most countries have their own currencies, from minnows to huge federal superpowers; it's not an arduous think to set up.

    That seems sensible to me so long as the "whatever suits" is nailed down before any serious debate gets underway. A clear roadmap would be good.

    From where I stood AS hadn't got a firm enough strategy last time around chopping and changing over the months from the Euro to pound and vice versa. As you say the UK also throwing toys out of the pram made the whole debate a shambles.

    Edited by kar999
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    Posted
  • Location: Wylye , Wiltshire
  • Location: Wylye , Wiltshire

    Personally, I prefer the solution of a new and independent Scottish currency, but, if the Scotland-remains-in-Europe-post-BREXIT-idea, really does have "legs" as an idea, then I suspect Scotland will want/be obliged to take the €

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    21 minutes ago, Arthur said:

    Personally, I prefer the solution of a new and independent Scottish currency, but, if the Scotland-remains-in-Europe-post-BREXIT-idea, really does have "legs" as an idea, then I suspect Scotland will want/be obliged to take the €

    You need to have the first before you can even consider having the latter.

    It's not possible to enter the ERM - the first stage of moving to the Euro - without your own currency and central bank.

    And entering the ERM is voluntary for obvious reasons. We've all seen what a farce that can turn into if you do it at the wrong time! I remember Black Wednesday well.

    Personally, I wish I was paid in Euro's right now. :wink:

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    I'll carry on hating banks, thanks. Monopolists, racketeers, profiteers,  charlatans, scoundrels, wastrels, gypsies, nincompoops, back door entryists, filibusters, sea gherkins, chutney ferrets, ten thousand typhoons in a blistering barnacle!

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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    2 hours ago, Arthur said:

    Personally, I prefer the solution of a new and independent Scottish currency, but, if the Scotland-remains-in-Europe-post-BREXIT-idea, really does have "legs" as an idea, then I suspect Scotland will want/be obliged to take the €

    Will make calculating Scotland's contribution to future bailouts easier too. :)

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    We'll all remember well how Sturgeon has been attacked by UK politicians and the press over the years for her lack of children.

    Well, it was nobody's business, but if people must know.

    Quote

    https://archive.is/4753X

    Nicola Sturgeon tells of sorrow over miscarriage

    Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has spoken for the first time of her sorrow that she miscarried a baby.

    The SNP leader revealed how she and husband Peter Murrell, the party's chief executive, lost a baby when she was 40, shortly before the 2011 Scottish parliamentary election campaign period, when she was deputy leader.

     

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
    54 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

    We'll all remember well how Sturgeon has been attacked by UK politicians and the press over the years for her lack of children.

    Well, it was nobody's business, but if people must know.

     

    And perhaps quell the rumours by the haters that she is a closet lesbian.

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    There's a lot of bile being spouted on Facebook about the SNP's survey about another referendum. I get the feeling that this time around is going to be rather nasty, all the unionists seem to have left is antagonism backed up by a quick reference to GERS and a £15bn deficit...which soon gets a response of foot stamping when you point out that GERS proves Scotland in the union is bankrupt. 

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland
    7 minutes ago, CatchMyDrift said:

    There's a lot of bile being spouted on Facebook about the SNP's survey about another referendum. I get the feeling that this time around is going to be rather nasty, all the unionists seem to have left is antagonism backed up by a quick reference to GERS and a £15bn deficit...which soon gets a response of foot stamping when you point out that GERS proves Scotland in the union is bankrupt. 

    With shouty loyalists like Prof Tomkins getting ever shriller it's already beginning to become clear the approach that's going to be taken. Tomkins wants people to listen, well Scotland's said no to Tories at every election for generations, HM Government has no mandate for Tory policies in Scotland, it has absolutely no mandate to drag Scotland out of the EU. So prof if you are listening there are two words you should hear loudly - one begins with F and the other with O - a message you got resoundingly from the voters of Glasgow Anniesland in May!

    Edited by skifreak
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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
    9 minutes ago, skifreak said:

    With shouty loyalists like Prof Tomkins getting ever shriller it's already beginning to become clear the approach that's going to be taken. Tomkins wants people to listen, well Scotland's said no to Tories at every election for generations, HM Government has no mandate for Tory policies in Scotland, it has absolutely no mandate to drag Scotland out of the EU. So prof if you are listening there are two words you should hear loudly - one begins with F and the other with O - a message you got resoundingly from the voters of Glasgow Anniesland in May!

    For the first time today I'm looking forward to round 2, and more interestingly for the first time I think we'll win. Now all I need are a job lot of flags and a course in "How to be a proper Nationalist"...

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
    2 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

    It's intriguing being unarguably a unionist now, while unionists are unquestionably separatists.

    Brexit has really reversed roles.

    Are you a nationalist unionist loyalist now? (i.e. Loyal to the EU) Or just a unionist internationalist? It's lucky we're leaving the monarchy out of this...someone could end up as a nationalist republican unionist and we'll all get very confused!! 

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    Posted
  • Location: Aberdeen
  • Location: Aberdeen
    1 hour ago, CatchMyDrift said:

    There's a lot of bile being spouted on Facebook about the SNP's survey about another referendum. I get the feeling that this time around is going to be rather nasty, all the unionists seem to have left is antagonism backed up by a quick reference to GERS and a £15bn deficit...which soon gets a response of foot stamping when you point out that GERS proves Scotland in the union is bankrupt. 

    I enjoyed filling in the survey and think it is important that now it is available and publicised as many people as possible complete it.

    In contrast to your experience though I haven't seen any bile on Facebook about it, in fact I have only seen a couple of posts on my FB feed and they were both simply highlighting the existence of the survey. Different experiences eh? As for getting nasty, I'm sure if there is a second independence referendum there will again be nastiness on both sides, and fear, as you suggest it may be worse than the last time.

    What may help though would be a caveat that irrespective of result, should there be a perceived "material change" there could be another referendum in the immediate years afterwards?

    I find this thread fascinating because of people's views but it seems very different from my daily experiences with people at work etc. 

    A question for SNP members - what is the time scale for the hitting the doorsteps to gauge public opinion?

    As an aside the criticism of Nicolar Sturgeon and Theresa May over their family circumstances re. children is unpleasant and nasty but I guess such people voicing such criticisms see themselves as clever, when the majority of the population see them as the exact opposite.

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