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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    Are you really suggesting the price of oil doesn't matter when building an economic case for an independent economy?

     

     

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    17 minutes ago, kar999 said:

    Are you really suggesting the price of oil doesn't matter when building an economic case for an independent economy?

     

     

    No, not really, because most countries don't have any. It's not a requirement for independence, just a bonus. This is obvious from Scotland's revenues up on last year according to the Tories even though oil revenue is hardly anything. Likewise the big job loses yet Scotland's unemployment at 5% just like the UK. Because Scotland never got the oil revenues, it never had the chance to become dependent on them like Saudi or Venezuela. Or use them wisely like Norway... UK peed them away and Scotland built an economy not dependent on oil as best it could under UK mismanagement.

    The price at any moment has only ever mattered to unionists. As you can see, support for Yes is higher than it was by 7 points compared to 2014 Yet oil is half the price. There's no correlation; that only exists in the minds of UK unionists.

    And anyway, it's England that has been built on the back of oil for 30 years and the UK government that's worried about losing that. Including the strategic / energy security aspect. Hence being strongly against Scottish indy.

    Jeez, thatcher would have been screwed without that free Scottish money. Utterly screwed.

    ---

    As an aside, once again it's the over 65's that back No. Under 65's majortiy Yes. Yougov shows this again. Its a demographic time bomb I've watched develop for nearly 40 years. It's impossible to stop; britian is dying in the hearts / identities of Scots. Bexit is a south of the border symptom of that; a last desperate attempt to resurrect a corpse. Britain will not survive the English seeking independence.

    Such things transcend economics, oil price... That's why people in England voted to Leave. How'd the economics arguments work out there? Just about everyone warned it was a bad idea, yet they voted for it.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    As the GERs figures appear to have been trashed maybe the revenue streams and expenditure, from whatever sources, will all become clear when an Independent Scotland sets out its economic budget.

    I'm sure the EU will need this information for setting Scotland's EU contributions. 

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    17 minutes ago, kar999 said:

    As the GERs figures appear to have been trashed maybe the revenue streams and expenditure, from whatever sources, will all become clear when an Independent Scotland sets out its economic budget.

    I'm sure the EU will need this information for setting Scotland's EU contributions. 

    Yes, we can only ever know what's Scotland's finances look like under indy when it's independent. For the moment we need to take the word of government in London who doesn't want it to be independent, collects just about all its revenues, and won't share the details on this.

    And no country in history has ever become independent for simple economic reasons anyway. England voting for a completely plan free Brexit is another case which shows how little this matters directly.

    Scotland voted No in 2014 ultimately because it was just still a little too British at heart. However, those that swung the vote - the British identifying post war baby boomers - are passing away, replaced by young people who only know a devolved Scotland and don't feel any sense of britishness. They are European more than British.

    The Scottish Scotland I live in now is almost unrecognizable to the British one I grew up in. Everything British has just about gone. From Rail, Coal, Steel and Telecom to the welfare state. With those went the union jacks which used to be quite a common sight, and the shared identity.

    It's these things the older unionists are harking back too. My daughter by contrast doesn't even know what Britain is being generation Yes. She doesn't even have CBBC as part of her childhood like I did given the plethora of choices on Sky.

    It's this which is slowing driving everything, and ironically, it's unionist parties that have de-britished Scotland.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'
  • Location: Sth Staffs/Shrops 105m/345' & NW Snowdonia 219m/719'

    Of course people will vote for independence for all sorts of reasons but the economy will be one of them.

    NS wants to engage with 2 milllion voters and has promised to listen to their concerns including the economy and Brexit.

    How the economy will look, even in basic terms, post Indy has to be up there on the top of the list of questions. Even NS has recognised this today (as I posted above). She knows smoke and mirror answers won't do and we all had a belly full of that in the Brexit debacle.

    The First Minister added that "tough issues" will not be ducked, including how an independent Scotland would address a £15bn deficit. She said: "The commission will inform our thinking on how growth can be sustained in the here and now and during the period of uncertainty caused by Brexit.

    "But it will also examine projections for Scotland's finances in the context of independence and consider a policy programme, with social justice at its heart, to grow the economy and reduce Scotland's deficit to a sustainable level.

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Of course the economy is one of them; but its a surface feature. The economic calamity of Brexit is why we're even back to the subject of another iref so soon.

    However, it's not the main factor as we saw in the brexit vote. You can have absolutely zero economic plan with just about everyone saying voting that way will be a disaster, and still win. England proves that ones again.

    Anyway, won't be long before anything looks better than the UK economically.

    The UK has been a slow motion train wreck of an economy my whole life. Has led to Scotland on the brink of ending it and the brexit calamity.

    Scottish indy is a symptom of a failing Britain just as brexit is.

    UK needs to explain it's massive debts in the meantime and persuade Scotland to help fund them even though it didn't spend any of the money borrowed.

    Brexit has put the boot on the other foot. Sturgeon knows this but also knows she must play for the crowd / a still British MSM.

    I never expected Yes to win in 2014. Hoped of course, but knew Scotland was still too British.

    But I did know if England vote Brexit, then the UK would not last more than a few years. When the English rise, British is over.

    So far, all going exactly as expected.

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    Posted
  • Location: Ashford, Kent
  • Weather Preferences: Over 18C please!
  • Location: Ashford, Kent
    41 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

    When the English rise, British is over

    Not really for this thread, I realise, but humour me a little......please and I'm not being sarcastic, I just don't understand the dynamics, and worry about the rhetoric.

    Scottish people stand up for what they want, even getting a referendum, all good - but now that English people have finally stood up to be counted, it's bad? I know the two sides disagree on Brexit - so is it just because we disagree on the EU, or is it because it was the English who did?

    I know Government is in Westminster, which you don't like, but surely you realise that most of the stuff that the Government decides doesn't suit the English either - but we don't seem to get any choice for our own area, either. There is Scottish parliament, there's Welsh parliament, blimey there's even talking about a Cornish assembly.... what about England having it's own say in the UK Parliament ?

    Apart from the posh bits of London, and the small pockets of middle classes in the suburbs, who talk with a plum in their mouth,  most of the SE is working class, so not very different from anywhere else in the country, so why is it bad when we stand up for something?

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    14 minutes ago, interested & confused said:

    Scottish people stand up for what they want, even getting a referendum, all good - but now that English people have finally stood up to be counted, it's bad? I know the two sides disagree on Brexit - so is it just because we disagree on the EU, or is it because it was the English who did?

    Where did I say it [English indy] was bad?

    I just said that the UK is over when the English want independence.

    Same applies for Scotland and the Scottish. Scotland is just easier for the British to keep a lid on because it's small. If the English start voting for major constitutional change, it's too hard to control.

    It's like the Germans and French voting to leave the EU if you like.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol

    Did i read in last 24 hours that Ruth 'Tory' has slightly higher approval ratings than the Strugeon in latest poll?

    It hasnt been reported in this thread so i guess it is not true.

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Beverley, East Yorks. (2 metres a.s.l.)
  • Weather Preferences: Something good in all four seasons
  • Location: Near Beverley, East Yorks. (2 metres a.s.l.)
    2 hours ago, scottish skier said:

     

    I never expected Yes to win in 2014. Hoped of course, but knew Scotland was still too British.

     

    Ooo I am surprised to read that. You perhaps kept the thought hidden.

    B.

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    Posted
  • Location: Ashford, Kent
  • Weather Preferences: Over 18C please!
  • Location: Ashford, Kent

    I just said that the UK is over when the English want independence

    England didn't ask for independence from the rest of the UK, did it? It wanted to leave the EU.

    Perhaps we should leave you to be cosy with the London remainers, in a smaller UK and in the EU. The rest of England should go for independence and Brexit - that'd sort things out LOL

    Maybe NI and Wales would stay with you and the EU,  maybe they'd want to come with us. At least everyone would get what they want?

    Don't think so, there is always the minority who voted the other way.........................

     

     

     

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland
    24 minutes ago, interested & confused said:

    I just said that the UK is over when the English want independence

    England didn't ask for independence from the rest of the UK, did it? It wanted to leave the EU.

     

    No what England is asking the rest of the UK to do is shut up and go along with how England voted.

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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
    27 minutes ago, interested & confused said:

    I just said that the UK is over when the English want independence

    England didn't ask for independence from the rest of the UK, did it? It wanted to leave the EU.

    The key word was 'when' i.e. future tense. @scottish skier wasn't talking about the EU Ref per se but a possible future situation.

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
    44 minutes ago, Bristle boy said:

    Did i read in last 24 hours that Ruth 'Tory' has slightly higher approval ratings than the Strugeon in latest poll?

    It hasnt been reported in this thread so i guess it is not true.

     

    I never saw that BB, can you post a link please? :) 

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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
    56 minutes ago, Bristle boy said:

    Did i read in last 24 hours that Ruth 'Tory' has slightly higher approval ratings than the Strugeon in latest poll?

    It hasnt been reported in this thread so i guess it is not true.

     

    I thought I'd seen it mentioned here but maybe not.

    The question asked was "Do you think these party leaders are doing well or badly at their job?"

    Sturgeon got +20 (53% Well/33% Badly) and Davidson got +21 (46% Well/25% Badly), so Davidson edges it in a way as although she isn't doing as well as Nicola, she's also not doing as badly, if that makes sense. 

    Anyway, the way the question is worded makes it a bit academic as although I'd never vote Tory I'd still say Ruth is doing very well at her job as party leader in Scotland. How couldn't she be after taking more seats than Labour at the last elections and consistently beating Labour into third place in the polls. Tories still get less than half the votes the SNP get though so I doubt Nicola will be worrying too much. Dugdale got -17 (25% Well/42% Badly), which maybe explains why Labours own activists laughed when Owen said recently she was doing a good job.

    Edit:

    Link for @CatchMyDrift https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/09/01/davidson-now-more-popular-sturgeon-scotland/

    Although given the wording of the question I'd argue about the validity of their assertion that "The survey sees Ruth Davidson named the most popular party leader in Scotland, overtaking Nicola Sturgeon for the first time." Ask "who do you like most?" and I'd expect a very different result.

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    Posted
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol
    14 minutes ago, CatchMyDrift said:

    I never saw that BB, can you post a link please? :) 

    On mobile in The Algarve, so unfortunately not.

    Apparently she's gone lukewarm on continued EU membership for Scotland.

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland
    37 minutes ago, Bristle boy said:

    On mobile in The Algarve, so unfortunately not.

    Apparently she's gone lukewarm on continued EU membership for Scotland.

    Who Nicola or Ruth? 

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    Posted
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
  • Weather Preferences: Freezing fog, frost, snow, sunshine.
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
    33 minutes ago, Bristle boy said:

    On mobile in The Algarve, so unfortunately not.

    Apparently she's gone lukewarm on continued EU membership for Scotland.

    That'll go down well in her seat of Edinburgh Central which voted around 80% remain.

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    Posted
  • Location: Hanley, Stoke-on-trent
  • Location: Hanley, Stoke-on-trent
    1 hour ago, interested & confused said:

    I just said that the UK is over when the English want independence

    England didn't ask for independence from the rest of the UK, did it? It wanted to leave the EU.

    Perhaps we should leave you to be cosy with the London remainers, in a smaller UK and in the EU. The rest of England should go for independence and Brexit - that'd sort things out LOL

    Maybe NI and Wales would stay with you and the EU,  maybe they'd want to come with us. At least everyone would get what they want?

    Don't think so, there is always the minority who voted the other way.........................

     

     

     

     

    I'm not sure I agree. There were enough warnings from people like Major that a leave vote would probably lead to the end of the UK. It was just another factor they chose to ignore, in the desperation for fewer EU citizens living in the EU (i.e. "immigrants") & money that didn't exist being given away on buses.

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  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
  • Weather Preferences: Freezing fog, frost, snow, sunshine.
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
    59 minutes ago, CatchMyDrift said:

    I never saw that BB, can you post a link please? :) 

    It was in the Times. Interesting methodology in the poll to say the least.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/davidson-on-a-high-as-tories-still-edge-labour-vnsnhqt6l

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    Posted
  • Location: Ashford, Kent
  • Weather Preferences: Over 18C please!
  • Location: Ashford, Kent

     

    1 hour ago, skifreak said:

    No what England is asking the rest of the UK to do is shut up and go along with how England voted

    It is the UK Government, not England, that wants you to go along with how the majority of the people in the UK voted.

    There are people who voted for Brexit in most of the UK, including Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland, what about them?

    6 minutes ago, davehsug said:

    There were enough warnings from people like Major that a leave vote would probably lead to the end of the UK

    Oh so we're back to asking everybody to vote how they want, except for those that want to leave the EU, they have to vote to stay in because Scotland wants to. Is that really fair?

     Everybody voted how they wanted to, not to please those on the other side of the debate, what's the point of voting for something you don't want to happen? You wouldn't - so why expect anyone else to?

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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
    30 minutes ago, Hairy Celt said:

    Who is Rob48?

    A Labour list MSP? After all, he seems to be pretty anonymous like they are. Likes to like lots of posts, especially those of a select few, but doesn't appear to have posted anything himself for nearly 4yrs. Each to thier own I suppose. 

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    Posted
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol
    1 hour ago, Hairy Celt said:

    Who is Rob48?

    He's a forum member. He chooses not to post .......and that's his choice......... and should be respected.

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