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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    6 minutes ago, CatchMyDrift said:

    A lot of people couldn't care less, it's not their problem after all so why give a toss? My sister is going through similar as my brother-in-law is Portugese. It's unlikely that it'll come to full scale deportations but people on the outside should either offer a little sympathy or offer no sympathy but qualify their reasoning. Petty comments don't really help at a time like this, not when people are genuinely fearful. 

    Do I think my wife will be deported? No, most likely not. Although 'Trump won', so I can't rule it out entirely.

    However, my wife knows only Scotland (in terms of UK nations). For her, England is completely foreign; far more so than it is to me, having grown up attached to it. So it's far harder for her to assess the level of threat.

    I know lots of EU people that are genuinely fearful for their futures. It's real and shouldn't be belittled.

    May could end this tomorrow but refuses too and it's disgusting.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    13 minutes ago, CatchMyDrift said:

    A lot of people couldn't care less, it's not their problem after all so why give a toss? My sister is going through similar as my brother-in-law is Portugese. It's unlikely that it'll come to full scale deportations but people on the outside should either offer a little sympathy or offer no sympathy but qualify their reasoning. Petty comments don't really help at a time like this, not when people are genuinely fearful. 

    Of course it suits the Indy cause to suggest they are genuinely fearful and I'm sure there are some who are only too ready to whip them up into a frenzy of wide eyed terror.

    I also work in an industry in which EU nationals are very heavily represented and apart from an unsettled few days in late June they have come to the correct conclusion that they are perfectly OK where they are. Firstly, the extremely important industry in which we work would collapse without them and secondly, they know any attempt to return them to their country of origin would result in a huge number of Brit ex-pat pensioners being returned to the UK to clog up the NHS. Drop the hysteria, the UK govt isn't going to deport anyone already here.

    Edited by Dougal
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    Posted
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol
    13 minutes ago, CatchMyDrift said:

    A lot of people couldn't care less, it's not their problem after all so why give a toss? My sister is going through similar as my brother-in-law is Portugese. It's unlikely that it'll come to full scale deportations but people on the outside should either offer a little sympathy or offer no sympathy but qualify their reasoning. Petty comments don't really help at a time like this, not when people are genuinely fearful. 

    Nor does constant scaremongering based on fear, rather than facts.

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    Posted
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol
    7 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

    Do I think my wife will be deported? No, most likely not. Although 'Trump won', so I can't rule it out entirely.

    However, my wife knows only Scotland (in terms of UK nations). For her, England is completely foreign; far more so than it is to me, having grown up attached to it. So it's far harder for her to assess the level of threat.

    I know lots of EU people that are genuinely fearful for their futures. It's real and shouldn't be belittled.

    May could end this tomorrow but refuses too and it's disgusting.

    Genuine Q here SS.

    Why hasnt your wife applied for British citizenship over last few years? I work with a couple of people, one South African and the other from???? (Sorry country escapes me at mo). They applied a few years ago and gained theirs about 18 months ago. 

    Just wondering.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    16 minutes ago, Bristle boy said:

    Genuine Q here SS.

    Why hasnt your wife applied for British citizenship over last few years? I work with a couple of people, one South African and the other from???? (Sorry country escapes me at mo). They applied a few years ago and gained theirs about 18 months ago. 

    Just wondering.

    Why would she want it? She's at most part Scottish in identity now and not in any way 'British'. She hasn't needed a British passport to date, and a Brexit one will be pretty poor compared to an EU one if freedom of movement is ended for the UK. Waste of money really.

    Likewise, if Scotland votes to stick with Brexit Britain, we'll likely move to France. I'll get residence there no problems and a French EU passport in a few years. I was born European and the EUref has made me feel that very strongly, even if I admit it was something I kind of took for granted before / didn't think about. My second country after Scotland is definitely France these days. It's a language spoken daily in my house.

    I've already started gathering the documentation I need to get my Irish EU passport through my gran in the meantime. I want a good passport which allows me to travel and work very freely. While I'm 3/4 Scottish, my left leg is Irish, so...

    Scottish mainly, Irish origins, french through love. European from birth.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland
    1 hour ago, Bristle boy said:

    Gross exaggeration. 

    Quote

    Rob48 likes this

    Ah the stamp of certification that the post above it is tosh.... Do either of you two know people in that situation? I do, I have friends who just bought their own place early this year, now have a 25 year mortgage with indications that property prices will now drop markedly and  who have the fact HM Government is refusing to guarantee they'll be allowed to live in that house beyond 2 years hence hanging over their daily lives. Can you imagine being in that situation? What if the worst happens, what if they are in negative equity so can't sell but have to leave.

    The message from HM Government to such people is that you are not welcome here, this is not your country, why don't you go home? :angry:

    Edited by skifreak
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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    5 minutes ago, skifreak said:

     

    The message from HM Government to such people is that you are not welcome here, this is not your country, why don't you go home? :angry:

    No, that's your interpretation of the Govt's lack of clarity on the matter which conveniently suits the SN cause.

    Those of us not attempting to gain political mileage from the situation are reassuring our friends and families from EU countries that the chances of their continued right to live and work in the UK being removed are zero, all things considered.

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    14 minutes ago, Dougal said:

    No, that's your interpretation of the Govt's lack of clarity on the matter which conveniently suits the SN cause.

    Those of us not attempting to gain political mileage from the situation are reassuring our friends and families from EU countries that the chances of their continued right to live and work in the UK being removed are zero, all things considered.

     

    Is it really so hard for the English government to say that formally?

    The Scottish Government have; at least said they will do whatever they can within their power to allow EU citizens the right to remain irrespective of what happens.

    The fact the English government are attempting to make political mileage out of peoples lives in such a way by letting the threat hang over people, my own family included, is disgusting.

    May could end this tomorrow with a formal deceleration backed by a parliamentary bill as soon as possible if needed.

    ----

    I'll add that it's clear many folks down South seem to agree this is bad, even if that's hard to say openly as it's politically a problem them for them. It's why the mention of it causes a run of posts each time.

    People should not try to defend the indefensible.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    44 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

    Is it really so hard for the English government to say that formally?

    The Scottish Government have; at least said they will do whatever they can within their power to allow EU citizens the right to remain irrespective of what happens.

    The fact the English government are attempting to make political mileage out of peoples lives in such a way by letting the threat hang over people, my own family included, is disgusting.

    May could end this tomorrow with a formal deceleration backed by a parliamentary bill as soon as possible if needed.

    I agree that the lack of a formal statement is insensitive to say the least, but hey, that's the Tories for you.

    The UK govt clearly doesn't want tens of thousands of suntanned pensioners sent back here by the EU and are holding back on ruling out deporting EU nationals as a bargaining chip. super duperty way to treat people but pretty easy to read between the lines and see that nothing will change on this issue at least.

    Btw, it's the active nurturing of fear by SNs to help their cause that brings the extra English posters in to condemn it. OK, May wilfully bringing more uncertainty to the lives of EU nationals is pretty low, but pro Indy Scots picking it up and running with it isn't particularly attractive either.

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    Posted
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol
  • Location: Stoke Gifford, Bristol
    54 minutes ago, skifreak said:

    Ah the stamp of certification that the post above it is tosh.... Do either of you two know people in that situation? I do, I have friends who just bought their own place early this year, now have a 25 year mortgage with indications that property prices will now drop markedly and  who have the fact HM Government is refusing to guarantee they'll be allowed to live in that house beyond 2 years hence hanging over their daily lives. Can you imagine being in that situation? What if the worst happens, what if they are in negative equity so can't sell but have to leave.

    The message from HM Government to such people is that you are not welcome here, this is not your country, why don't you go home? :angry:

    There is no such message at all. You're in danger of being brainwashed by the negative headlines. 

    The subject of overstretching re mortgages is an age old problem that people have been sucked into for decades in the UK.

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    There's two ongoing examples in the Highland Council area where families who were in the UK legitimately have been told to leave voluntarily or be removed after the Tories retrospectively changed the rules. So there is form here, which gives a bit of an extra edge to the way in which the UK Government won't guarantee the rights of EU citizens. Also the way things are being applied with a one size fits all interpretation of new rules on various visas whether it's central London or some of the remotest parts of the Highlands is beyond stupidity. Applying the same wage requirements  in the rural Highlands as London is absurd. Stripping a rural village of it's one amenity because self employed owners no longer count as staff towards the staff required to support a business related work visa in an area that has struggled with depopulation is just bonkers. 

    There is no such message at all. You're in danger of being brainwashed by the negative headlines.

    The UK Government could have come out the day after the vote and categorically confirmed that EU citizens living and working in the UK today would continue to do so post Brexit - HM Government chose not to. That is unforgivable.

    Edited by skifreak
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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    30 minutes ago, skifreak said:

    There's two ongoing examples in the Highland Council area where families who were in the UK legitimately have been told to leave voluntarily or be removed after the Tories retrospectively changed the rules. So there is form here, which gives a bit of an extra edge to the way in which the UK Government won't guarantee the rights of EU citizens. Also the way things are being applied with a one size fits all interpretation of new rules on various visas whether it's central London or some of the remotest parts of the Highlands is beyond stupidity. Applying the same wage requirements  in the rural Highlands as London is absurd. Stripping a rural village of it's one amenity because self employed owners no longer count as staff towards the staff required to support a business related work visa in an area that has struggled with depopulation is just bonkers. 

     

     

    The UK Government could have come out the day after the vote and categorically confirmed that EU citizens living and working in the UK today would continue to do so post Brexit - HM Government chose not to. That is unforgivable.

    You're clearly determined to be outraged on other people's behalf when it suits you. 

    Funny though, that when I raised the issue of 750,000 Scots in England being denied a vote to determine the future of their nation of birth, no one in here seemed that bothered.

    I wonder why!?

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland
    6 minutes ago, Dougal said:

    You're clearly determined to be outraged on other people's behalf when it suits you. 

    Funny though, that when I raised the issue of 750,000 Scots in England being denied a vote to determine the future of their nation of birth, no one in here seemed that bothered.

    I wonder why!?

    They are citizens of the U.K. so the issue does not exist unless you are advocating stripping people of their citizenship on the basis of country of origin and then deporting them! 

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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    7 hours ago, skifreak said:

    They are citizens of the U.K. so the issue does not exist unless you are advocating stripping people of their citizenship on the basis of country of origin and then deporting them! 

    Yep, we had all that and hiding behind existing voting models.

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

     

    18 minutes ago, Dougal said:

    Yep, we had all that and hiding behind existing voting models.

     

    Can you please define 'a scot living in England'?

    This term of yours is too vague for the purpose of your arguments.

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland
    3 hours ago, Dougal said:

    Yep, we had all that and hiding behind existing voting models.

     

    The last IndyRef franchise was based on residency not ethnicity and so will the next one. Though plenty of noise was made by some unionists about this, no party at Holyrood seriously proposed anything other than the Scottish Parliament franchise being used and this posistion was tested and backed in a court of law.

    One of the core tenets of independence is that the people best placed to make decisions on Scotland's future are the people who live and work in Scotland - having a vote on independence one way or the other determined by voters ordinarily resident in another country would be a democratic nonsense. 

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    A yougov Scottish subsample, so care must be taken, although their new weighting methods make this very stable with VI closely matching full scottish polls.

    Changes on 2 weeks ago.

    In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?
    63(+4)% Wrong
    26(-9)% Right

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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/17/scottish-independence-diaspora-vote-scots-living-england

    An interesting opinion piece on the issue I raised here the other day, written just before the Indy vote. Doesn't predict brexit obviously but that only strengthens his argument. Some strong opinions either way in the comments too.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    1 hour ago, Dougal said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/17/scottish-independence-diaspora-vote-scots-living-england

    An interesting opinion piece on the issue I raised here the other day, written just before the Indy vote. Doesn't predict brexit obviously but that only strengthens his argument. Some strong opinions either way in the comments too.

    I want my cake and to eat it never garners sympathy.

    If someone is that keen on Scottish politics, why don't they just move home?

    Anyway, if the franchise is to be extended it ex-pats you'd need to do it for all the Scots diaspora the world over. You can't discriminate based on the fact someone lives in England / the rUK. That would be straight to court from e.g. Scots in France or Spain. 

    So that's what you are proposing. Anyone the world over of voting age who qualifies (in some way you refuse to define) as Scottish should get a vote. That's pretty ridiculous to the extent it's not really worth discussing.

    Certainly not going to happen. Franchise will be same as last time.

    Scotland had that debate and it's over. Sorry you missed it at the time. It was reasonably interesting, but very short and tidied up quickly and legally.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    How others see the UK.

    Quote

    https://archive.is/mJ3m3#selection-1779.0-1779.106

    UN body accuses British politicians of using 'divisive' and 'anti-immigrant' rhetoric during EU referendum

    BRITISH politicians have been accused by a United Nations body of using "divisive" and "anti-immigrant" rhetoric during the EU referendum, which, it claimed, had helped to fuel a spike in race hate crimes in the weeks before and after the historic June 23 vote.

    The accusation has come from the UN’s committee on the elimination of racial discrimination, which claimed leading political figures in the UK had "failed to condemn" racist abuse and had promoted prejudices during the campaign...

    ...In a report, the UN committee said it was "seriously concerned" at the rise and condemned the "divisive, anti-immigrant and xenophobic rhetoric".

    It explained: "The committee remains concerned that despite the recent increase in the reporting of hate crimes, the problem of underreporting persists and the gap between reported cases and successful prosecution remains significant. As a result, a large number of racist hate crimes seem to go unpunished."

    The report said committee members were concerned at the "negative portrayal" of ethnic minority communities, immigrants, asylum-seekers and refugees in the UK, including coverage by the media.

    They were also critical of the UK government's anti-terrorism Prevent strategy, which, they claimed, had created "an atmosphere of suspicion towards members of Muslim communities".

    The report was also critical of the Conservative Government’s plans to replace the Human Rights Act of 1998 with a new British Bill of Rights, warning that the move could lead to "decreased levels of human rights protection".

    David Isaac, chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, made clear it shared the UN body's concerns and supported its call for "effective investigation and prosecution of all acts of racist hate crime".

    He said: "There are concerns that the acrimonious and divisive manner in which the referendum debate was conducted exacerbated worrying divisions in British society and has been used by a minority to legitimise race hate.

    This is why a Scottish referendum must be civic and not ethnic. We need UN recognition.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: The Garden of England
  • Weather Preferences: A large kack of heavy cloud
  • Location: The Garden of England
    17 minutes ago, scottish skier said:

    I want my cake and to eat it never garners sympathy.

    If someone is that keen on Scottish politics, why don't they just move home?

    Anyway, if the franchise is to be extended it ex-pats you'd need to do it for all the Scots diaspora the world over. You can't discriminate based on the fact someone lives in England / the rUK. That would be straight to court from e.g. Scots in France or Spain. 

    So that's what you are proposing. Anyone the world over of voting age who qualifies (in some way you refuse to define) as Scottish should get a vote. That's pretty ridiculous to the extent it's not really worth discussing.

    Certainly not going to happen. Franchise will be same as last time.

    Scotland had that debate and it's over. Sorry you missed it at the time. It was reasonably interesting, but very short and tidied up quickly and legally.

    I realise you'd love to think so but it will be back on the agenda pre indy2 as (we both keep saying) everything has changed this time around.

    I think people may sympathise with the prospect of first generation Scots having to queue at the EU imposed border on the A74 when they are rushing home to see elderly parents.

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    Posted
  • Location: Surrey and SW France.
  • Location: Surrey and SW France.
    3 minutes ago, Dougal said:

    I realise you'd love to think so but it will be back on the agenda pre indy2 as (we both keep saying) everything has changed this time around.

    I think people may sympathise with the prospect of first generation Scots having to queue at the EU imposed border on the A74 when they are rushing home to see elderly parents.

    In the unlikely event such were to happen - it would not be an EU imposed border - remember, the EU don't do borders.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    19 minutes ago, Dougal said:

    I realise you'd love to think so but it will be back on the agenda pre indy2 as (we both keep saying) everything has changed this time around.

    I think people may sympathise with the prospect of first generation Scots having to queue at the EU imposed border on the A74 when they are rushing home to see elderly parents.

    You obviously don't travel the A74.

    Even if there was a hard border, the queue would be quick. It's a very quiet road.

    Only 0.15% of people in Scotland regularly cross the land border on a daily basis.

    http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2010/12/17120002/162

    The vast majority of people in Scotland rarely if ever visit England. No reason to. 

    It's like Danes not needing to visit Germany all the time.

    Edited by scottish skier
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