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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Sunderland
  • Weather Preferences: Hot Summer, Snowy winter and thunderstorms all year round!
  • Location: Sunderland

    Currently, both are essentially 'whiter than white' until such time as we know otherwise. 

     

    It's slightly annoying coincidence which the press has whipped into a frenzy, but with the SNP behaving impeccably in response - the opposite of how unionist parties behave in such situations - it's really all nothing and will have no effect on electoral support. In fact, could well increase it due to the 'don't treat us like idiots' response of the electorate to mountains being made out of molehills, especially if both remain completely innocent, as they currently are based on the evidence we have, and return to the fold in time. That or are rightly ejected if guilty.

     

    Also, in May, we are not voting for the two MPs concerned. We are voting for our local candidates, the policies their parties offer, and for either Sturgeon or erm, Dugdale as FM. Maybe even Ruth! Why would I not vote for Christine Graham even if there one or two SNP politicians were bad eggs? It's hardly going to make me Tory and unionist all of a sudden!

     

    The electorate are not stupid. People vote for parties based on competence and trust to deliver policies that they agree with. They do not vote on the actions of individual politicians (unless it is their own local candidate) and will only be turned off by sleaze if it is proven and very widespread. Even then, they won't necessarily vote for the opposition. For example, if the SNP all became corrupt and proven so, I'd still support independence and seek to vote for maybe the Greens or the SSP.

     

    Remember, this is all the unionist parties and media have now; negative smears. They have no sensible policies, a complete lack competent politicians, are financially in trouble with few members / no grassroots and if they actually found themselves in power in Holyrood, would be like rabbits in headlights. So they are down to 'Vote for us because that person might, maybe have done something dodgy! I mean of course loads of Labour politicians have resigned or gone to jail for dodgy stuff, but that's allowed / normal!'.

    In your humble opinion of course  :)

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    In your humble opinion of course  :)

     

    Not really, no. Not based on polling evidence and election results anyway. If Lab/Con/Lib had sensible, well thought out, attractive policies which would benefit Scotland...competent politicians etc...

     

    Well, one or more of them (we are talking PR for Holyrood) would be in government and not the SNP.

     

    People vote for decent governance aligned as close as they can get to what they'd like to see policy-wise. If you don't offer that, you don't get elected.

     

    Scottish people aren't unique global exceptions to this rule.

     

    ---

     

    Remember that the SNP are the Scottish Socialist Green Labour Liberal Democratic One Nation Moderate Conservative party.

     

    A movement which has drawn decent candidates of pretty much all political colours (bar the extremes of the spectrum such as the Tory neoliberals and the authoritarian nazi NF types).

     

    The SNP are a coalition of national unity. If you removed the yellow t-shirts from the Holyrood chamber, it would look very balanced in terms of political colours. 

     

    So, Labour, the libs, the moderate Cons are all succeeding in Scotland more than it appears. They are just wearing yellow t-shirts with little saltires and will likely do so until the constitutional question is resolved.

     

    The fact that the SNP is of this nature means their policies of course tend to have broad spectrum appeal. They also tend to be reasonably well thought out as they are based on a consensus between quite different political views rather than strongly of one ideology.

     

    Also not immune to bad eggs (e.g. Bill Walker) but tend to be much more strict in dealing with these than traditional parties, again due to what they are.

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    Posted
  • Location: Sunderland
  • Weather Preferences: Hot Summer, Snowy winter and thunderstorms all year round!
  • Location: Sunderland

    not taking the mick SS btw....your last para does look your opinion rather than indisputable fact

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    Posted
  • Location: Sunderland
  • Weather Preferences: Hot Summer, Snowy winter and thunderstorms all year round!
  • Location: Sunderland

    Not really, no. Not based on polling evidence and election results anyway. If Lab/Con/Lib had sensible, well thought out, attractive policies which would benefit Scotland...competent politicians etc.

     

    Well, one or more of them would be in government and not the SNP.

    oh, I don't know...back in '97 the Lib-dems had some very good policies which would've benefited the UK and had very competent politicians but only had 50odd MP's and no say in government........my point being, that holding power doesn't mean that you have the best policies or the most competent politicians, it means that you can spin your ideas to the general public better than the other parties, that's how elections are won and lost IMHO, the tories being a perfect example of this.....in power, but with some lousy policies! :)

    Edited by ajpoolshark
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    oh, I don't know...back in '97 the Lib-dems had some very good policies which would've benefited the UK and had very competent politicians but only had 50odd MP's and no say in government........my point being, that holding power doesn't mean that you have the best policies or the most competent politicians, it means that you can spin your ideas to the general public better than the other parties, that's how elections are won and lost IMHO, the tories being a perfect example of this.....in power, but with some lousy policies! :)

     

    But that's (the libs thing) a lot down to FPTP and one of the reasons the Libs fought hard to try and get PR.

     

    Holyrood is PR-type so totally different. There is no tactical voting and minor parties can rise to form government with relative ease. You know, like the SNP. :)

     

    Spin is not worth much IMO. The SNP have never had press / media support - quite the opposite - yet have done very well. 

     

    I tend to agree on the UK Tories of course, but it was more Labour that lost the election than the Tories winning it IMO.

     

    If the Tories had an effective opposition, they'd be in real trouble I think. Right now they have a narrow majority and that's down to a weak / divided Labour and the suicide of the the Lib Dems going into coalition with them 2010-

     

    ---

     

    I'm a Lib Dem BTW. A just left of centre one. It's why I vote 'yellow' SNP. The UK Lib Dems were too against their own century old goal of federalism then too Tory (Orange Bookers) to ever get my vote although there was a time that they'd have been the only UK party I'd have considered voting for. 

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Anyway, now back to stuff that does affect election results.

     

    Hardly a surprise.

     

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34911204

     

    MPs reject SNP calls for Trident to be scrapped
     
    Jump media playerMedia player helpOut of media player. Press enter to return or tab to continue.
     
    Media captionRobin Brant reports on the Trident vote: ''A significant illustration of the will of Parliament''
     
    MPs have overwhelmingly rejected calls from the SNP for the UK's Trident nuclear weapons system to be scrapped.
     
    After a debate in the Commons, MPs defeated an SNP motion opposing Trident's renewal by 330 votes to 64...
     
    ...Many Labour MPs stayed away from the debate after being asked to abstain by their leader Jeremy Corbyn.

     

     
    Labour: Abstaining for Britain!
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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    oh, I don't know...back in '97 the Lib-dems had some very good policies which would've benefited the UK and had very competent politicians but only had 50odd MP's and no say in government........my point being, that holding power doesn't mean that you have the best policies or the most competent politicians, it means that you can spin your ideas to the general public better than the other parties, that's how elections are won and lost IMHO, the tories being a perfect example of this.....in power, but with some lousy policies! :)

     

    Spin only works if you've got the press onside. I think we may have covered the press - SNP balance before in this thread.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    So does this mean Scottish Labour is back to having no policies for May's election?

     

    Their tax credits one was unworkable anyway, but...

     

    George Osborne says “improved public finances†means he doesn't need to cut #TaxCredits http://bbc.in/1TerKLN 

     

    Maybe they will now propose reverse their vote against devolving tax credits, then, if successful in getting them devolved, cut them then use the money generated out of thin air from not cutting APD top them up again?

     

    --

     

    EDIT

     

    Of course we should all remember that the Tories are not nice and had a change of heart. Nope, tax credits are being merged with universal credit so George still plans to shaft the working poor so he can reduce taxes for the most wealthy.

     

    This is the Tories we are talking about.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I see Osborne and the Tories were laughing at the thousands of job loses in Aberdeen due to the current downturn.

     

    And that's after blowing all the 100's of billions of revenues from previous boom cycles on the SE of England.

     

    Really sick people. Since when is massive job losses funny?

     

    Why on earth people vote to be governed by a party that mocks Scotland and its people in such a way is beyond me.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie

    Tomorrow's Daily Record lead story?

     

    "Blow to SNP as Tories force them to shelve plans to mitigate Tax Credit cuts"

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Out of interest, does anyone know if Marie Rimmer has finally voluntarily withdrawn the Labour whip and had her party membership suspended until the trial is complete?

     

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34923246

     

    Labour MP Marie Rimmer faces trial over alleged 'referendum assault'
     
    1 hour ago
     
    A Labour MP accused of kicking a "Yes" campaigner outside a polling station on the day of the Scottish independence referendum is to stand trial next year.
     
    Marie Rimmer denies assaulting Patricia McLeish at Shettleston Community Centre, Glasgow, on 18 September 2014.
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Quelle surprise.

     

    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3655/Scotlands-constitutional-future-seen-as-the-key-longterm-issue-facing-the-country.aspx

     

    Scotland’s constitutional future seen as the key long-term issue facing the country
     
    On the eve of Ipsos MORI’s key event to mark 20 years of a permanent office in Scotland, new polling for STV News suggests that voters think the ongoing debate about Scotland’s constitutional future will still be the key issue facing the country in 10 years from now.
     
    When asked unprompted, 37% said that they thought the constitutional issue would be the single most important issue facing Scotland in 10 years’ time. This is almost three times as many who mentioned the economy which, at 13%, was the second most common answer given. Around 1 in 10 (11%) mentioned unemployment/lack of industry as the key challenge in 10 years while 6% mentioned immigration.

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

    In the mean time, a second MSP has been suspended by the SNP, for 'naughtiness'...

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    In the mean time, a second MSP has been suspended by the SNP, for 'naughtiness'...

     

    This has been discussed.

     

    And she hasn't been suspended for naughtiness as she is completely innocent until there is evidence otherwise. In Scots law, you are innocent until proven guilty. She is not even under investigation by e.g. the police / I understand they haven't even asked to speak to her, although she has volunteered herself.

     

    She also hasn't been suspended by the SNP really. She has voluntarily withdrawn herself from the SNP whip - which automatically results in suspension from the party - until it is established whether she has actually done anything wrong. 

     

    This is expected by the SNP who are very, very strict in such matters. They particiarly need to be because the press hounds them while protects naughty unionist MPs.*

     

    Meanwhile, Alistair Carmichael is actually in court and remains a Lib Dem MP and shadow cabinet. Likewise, Labour's Maria Rimmer is due in court on a charge violent assault but retains the Labour whip and partly membership. This is as per Ruth Davidson who was under active investigation by the police for postal vote fraud but remained as leader of the conservative throughout (she is in the clear now, the police finding no case to answer). Unionist parties are far more easy going in this respect.

     

    Anyway, a difficult one maybe if you lived in her constituency, although the next election is 5 years away.

     

    Irrelevant to next May's election anyway as both her and Thomson are not standing as candidates.

     

    --

     

    *Why has Kezia Dugdale not stepped down while the police search for the 10k missing from her Constituency office for example. You'd be hard pushed to know this is an active investigation given how little attention the press has given it.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Irrelevant to next May's election anyway as both her and Thomson are not standing as candidates.

     

    Now this is relevant to next May. As tweeted by Labour's Eoin:

     

    Today Osborne clobbered Scotland, Wales & N. Ireland with 4.5-5.0% cuts. But watch him blame devolved govs for cuts.

    CUq3g1RXIAA7qfz.png

     

     

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Meanwhile, congratulations to the new 'Scottish independents' grouping in the HoC who now have double the number of MPs of all three unionist party groups respectively.  :)

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    And further good news for the economy of the NE, already hit hard jobs-wise by the oil downturn (which the Tories were laughing at earlier today).

     

     Wings Over Scotland Retweeted

    BREAKING £1bn Carbon Capture competition cancelled. Not good for SSE/Peterhead or Drax, the last 2 competitors #CCS

    CUq43wZWwAE8w9o.png
     
     

    #BetterTogether

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    Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

    This has been discussed.

     

    And she hasn't been suspended for naughtiness as she is completely innocent until there is evidence otherwise. In Scots law, you are innocent until proven guilty. She is not even under investigation by e.g. the police / I understand they haven't even asked to speak to her, although she has volunteered herself.

     

    She also hasn't been suspended by the SNP really. She has voluntarily withdrawn herself from the SNP whip - which automatically results in suspension from the party - until it is established whether she has actually done anything wrong. 

     

    This is expected by the SNP who are very, very strict in such matters. They particiarly need to be because the press hounds them while protects naughty unionist MPs.*

     

    Meanwhile, Alistair Carmichael is actually in court and remains a Lib Dem MP and shadow cabinet. Likewise, Labour's Maria Rimmer is due in court on a charge violent assault but retains the Labour whip and partly membership. This is as per Ruth Davidson who was under active investigation by the police for postal vote fraud but remained as leader of the conservative throughout (she is in the clear now, the police finding no case to answer). Unionist parties are far more easy going in this respect.

     

    Anyway, a difficult one maybe if you lived in her constituency, although the next election is 5 years away.

     

    Irrelevant to next May's election anyway as both her and Thomson are not standing as candidates.

     

    --

     

    *Why has Kezia Dugdale not stepped down while the police search for the 10k missing from her Constituency office for example. You'd be hard pushed to know this is an active investigation given how little attention the press has given it.

    Nyet, SS: if she's guilty than she's guilty? If she's innocent - then, so be it...

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    Posted
  • Location: Kingdom of Fife: 56.2º N, 3.2º W
  • Location: Kingdom of Fife: 56.2º N, 3.2º W

    Nyet, SS: if she's guilty than she's guilty? If she's innocent - then, so be it...

     

    Aye, but she IS innocent untill proved guilty so, so be it untill shown otherwise.

     

    As a matter of interest, at this stage neither she nor Michelle Thompson have even been charged with ANY wrongdoing, but regardless, in the eyes of CorpMedia they can still be hung, drawn and quartered just for being SNP MPs who also had the audacity to be involved in groups who actively campainged for a YES vote.

     

    Expect more 'revelations' as Project Smear gears up before May.

     

    As you do rightly say, if there is impropriety then that should be punished by due process, untill then folk, especiallly journalists and other commentators, need to be more circumspect as there could easily be crowdfunded law suits in the aftermath of proven innocence.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    For me, and from what people are saying in the office today, the latest #SNPpoliticianmighthave donesomething case highlights how independence is now a must / makes people even more determined to fight for independence.

     

    It is not that people are angrily defending the MP concerned - nope, she’s toast if there is any serious impropriety – rather it is anger at the massive British media bias. A bias where British (unionist) politicians are given an easy ride, even if they e.g. end up in court for violent assault, but if a Scottish (independence supporting) politician has even a whiff of maybe something around them, it’s front page news for days, even with no evidence.

     

    If Scotland is to ever have decent news media which properly reflects its electorate with informed articles based on hard evidence, independence is crucial.

     

    What is strange is that the MSM are killing themselves over this and don’t see it, even as their sales crash further and further each day. It seems they’d rather die than become at least a bit more impartial and subjective. Sad in some ways, as Scotland used to have some decent newspapers.

     

    But then maybe independence does mean a fresh start and that we need to leave all the British things behind, our old press included.

     

    I certainly would not shed a tear for the end of the Record, Scotsman etc. Not these days.

     

    ---

     

    Personally, I don't think I could be happy within the UK at all any more, even under some mythical devo super max. The unionist have driven me to this; from a 'liked the idea of indy, but not in a massive hurry' voter back just after devolution, to 'I am no longer British will always support independence' now. The SNP have not made me an independence supporter - they have nothing to do with that - it's entirely the unionist politicians and media that have done that. This is why every SNP politician could actually be found guilty of something heinous and I'd still support independence. I'd just vote for another pro-indy party. The unionists have destroyed any sense of Britishness I ever had in their attempts to do the opposite.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

     

    Personally, I don't think I could be happy within the UK at all any more, even under some mythical devo super max. The unionist have driven me to this; from a 'liked the idea of indy, but not in a massive hurry' voter back just after devolution, to 'I am no longer British will always support independence' now. The SNP have not made me an independence supporter - they have nothing to do with that - it's entirely the unionist politicians and media that have done that. This is why every SNP politician could actually be found guilty of something heinous and I'd still support independence. I'd just vote for another pro-indy party. The unionists have destroyed any sense of Britishness I ever had in their attempts to do the opposite.

     

    I doubt there's much personal about you feeling like that (no offence meant :) ), I'd be stunned if many independence supporters would stop wanting independence for Scotland because of the actions of a political party. That's the crux of what unionists don't get, it's not about the SNP, they are merely the current and most likely vehicle to get us to where we want to be. If the SNP get derailed we'll simply clamber aboard a different train.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    Another good release from Altered State.

     


     

    ALTERED STATE III. Reflections on Scotland's First Independence Referendum: Endgame focuses on the post-referendum period.

     

    A major factor in the political debate was Scotland's new media which provided a vital alternative to mainstream during the referendum and developed into a radical, diverse and often humorous scene that now rivals traditional press and TV output for audiences.

     

    The fall of SNP and other pro-independence parties was widely predicted when the No campaign won. The astonishing Yes campaign fightback began immediately after September 18th with people joining pro-independence parties in huge numbers. As the consequences of Labour's collaboration with the Conservatives began to dawn on the Scottish branch, new manager Jim Murphy carried the party to historic meltdown at the 2015 General Election. Is there any way back for Labour in Scotland? Whatever that party's future, Holyrood needs a functioning opposition with more ideas and less 'SNPbad'; something Nicola Sturgeon always said she would welcome. 

     

    The incredible success of the SNP and the prospect of interminable Conservative UK Government has sparked growing calls for a second referendum. When is the right time to move on indyref2? Is the gradualist approach a better option? It is incredible to think that in just two short years independence has moved from remote possibility to inevitability. What seems certain is that the path to independence is set and in terms of a 300 year old relationship, we are just a step away from going it alone.

     

    This episode includes interviews with Derek Bateman, James Kelly, Paul Kavanagh (Wee Ginger Dug), Greg Moodie, Christopher Silver and Professor John Robertson.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie

    I know guys - all SNP'ers are faultless...

    Who has said that? Nobody here that I've noticed. Assuming you are talking about the 2 SNP MPs, they've both resigned the party whip and been suspended until such time as any police investigations have been completed. If this isn't enough, what do you personally think the SNP should do with them?

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  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

    Who has said that? Nobody here that I've noticed. Assuming you are talking about the 2 SNP MPs, they've both resigned the party whip and been suspended until such time as any police investigations have been completed. If this isn't enough, what do you personally think the SNP should do with them?

    Of course not.

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