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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

     

    Effect of a Tory government I warned about seems to be happening.
     
    Unemployment rising in England since their majority. So far, we've managed to buck the trend in Scotland thankfully.
     
    However, you see the effect of their election in May here:

     

    We all of course no what happened to the economy the last time the Tories were in charge.

     

    2 decades of high unemployment and mass economic emigration. In the middle of an oil boom with hundreds of billions flowing from Scotland to the treasury in London.

     

    This is the reason why businesses are getting nervous. That and the increasingly anti-foreigner rhetoric / tightening of visas which is hurting FDI. Potential Brexit too of course.

     

    I'm no fan of the Tories, but this really is a ridiculous post. The idea that any government can have an impact on unemployment figures simply by being voted in is nonsense. As is the fact that this increase in unemployment has happened since the GE. The first rise was in the March-May period.

     

    Making such poor and irrational arguments only serves to undermine your cause. There are LOTS of things we can criticise and blame the Tories for, so let's focus on them and not this sort of clearly skewed, partisan, and baseless argument.

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

    The idea that any government can have an impact on unemployment figures simply by being voted in is nonsense.

     

    But, that's exactly what the claimed - isn't it?

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    Nick, just to say... sorry, but I really don't care what you think of my posts.

     

    You do nothing but criticise what I say, jumping again and again on my posts even though I generally post facts from polls and news stories. You never offer anything useful in return. No links to stories, nothing.

     

    Then there's the fact that for me to debate with you would be a gigantic waste of time.

     

    It would be like the German SDP canvassing in Bordeaux.

     

    You complain about Scottish public services, yet live in Durham. I'm pretty sure NHS Scotland, Police Scotland etc don't serve that region.

     

    I'm also fairly confident Durham falls outside of Holyrood Parlimantary electoral regions. So in that sense, me trying to convince you of the merits of any Scottish political party is utterly pointless.

     

    Should you not be posting in the UK politics thread if you are interested in politics? Or say Danish political forums too if that's what you enjoy?

     

    Why just here?

     

    Oh, I know!

     

    Another on ignore.

     

    --

     

    Of course you are free to post away until your heart is content. However, note people don't usually like being told what's best for them by their neighbours. That's what turned a 30 point lead into a zero point one now.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    But, that's exactly what the claimed - isn't it?

     

    Yes, parties can't take credit for falling unemployment and rising growth, then claim innocence when the opposite happens.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon

    . However, note people don't usually like being told what's best for them by their neighbours.

    Exactly, but think about it...

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Exactly, but think about it...

     

    Don't believe I've ever told people in England what to vote.

     

    Recommending my currently favoured party to them would certainly be an equally big waste of time!  :)

     

    I'll voice my thoughts on the UK government though as long as they keep going through my pockets (and fighting to do so)!

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Anyway, back on 'day to day' politics.

     

    Welfare, which is controlled by the UK government, in this instance.

     

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/depressed-man-killed-himself-as-a-direct-result-of-dwps-fit-to-work-ruling-coroner-finds-10510305.html

     

    Depressed man killed himself as a direct result of DWP's ‘fit to work’ ruling, coroner finds
     
    The 60-year-old father from north London was found 'fit to work'
     
    A coroner has concluded for the first time that a man with severe mental illness killed himself as a direct result of being found “fit to work†by the Government’s outsourced disability assessors.
     
    Michael O’Sullivan, a 60-year-old father from north London, hanged himself after his disability benefits were removed despite the opinion of three doctors that he was suffering from recurrent depression and certified as unable to work by his GP.
     
    An increasing occurrence UK-wide.
    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

     

    Nick, just to say... sorry, but I really don't care what you think of my posts.
     
    You do nothing but criticise what I say, jumping again and again on my posts even though I generally post facts from polls and news stories. You never offer anything useful in return. No links to stories, nothing.
     
    Then there's the fact that for me to debate with you would be a gigantic waste of time.
     
    It would be like the German SDP canvassing in Bordeaux.
     
    You complain about Scottish public services, yet live in Durham. I'm pretty sure NHS Scotland, Police Scotland etc don't serve that region.
     
    I'm also fairly confident Durham falls outside of Holyrood Parlimantary electoral regions. So in that sense, me trying to convince you of the merits of any Scottish political party is utterly pointless.
     
    Should you not be posting in the UK politics thread if you are interested in politics? Or say Danish political forums too if that's what you enjoy?
     
    Why just here?
     
    Oh, I know!
     
    Another on ignore.
     
    --
     
    Of course you are free to post away until your heart is content. However, note people don't usually like being told what's best for them by their neighbours. That's what turned a 30 point lead into a zero point one now.

     

    I didn't tell you what's best for you. Are you not reading my posts?

     

    And since when does my living in Durham mean I can't comment on issues relating to Scotland? Do you want a monopoly on Scottish discussion?

     

    Yes, I criticised your posts, because they are problematic and/or flawed IMO.

     

    And, no, I don't post links to stories and meaningless statistics. I prefer argument and logic. You seem to think links somehow make an argument valid. They don't (e.g., your nonsensical idea that the higher employment figures are due to the Tories winning, which seems to be based on simply posting your links and facts without any attempt at analysing or considering them - and I see you ignored the inconvenient point I made about the increase predating the election. LOL). It might be better if you analysed and questioned some of your sources (or investigated further) rather than using them like authorities on everything.

     

    My ONLY point here has been that you lot seem obsessed by a referendum that has been and gone, and to express surprise that no other issues appear to matter. But, then, as I'm from England I suppose that automatically makes my points worthless.

    Don't believe I've ever told people in England what to vote.

     

    Recommending my currently favoured party to them would certainly be an equally big waste of time!  :)

     

    I'll voice my thoughts on the UK government though as long as they keep going through my pockets (and fighting to do so)!

    And when did I tell you what to vote for?

    Edited by NickR
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    But, that's exactly what the claimed - isn't it?

     

    I would be very surprised if any party claimed that unemployment figures showed an immediate effect of a GE result. Pretty astounding if the labour market can react that quickly to anything, let alone an election result with no policy change.

    Edited by NickR
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    But, then, as I'm from England I suppose that automatically makes my points worthless.

     

    No, not specifically. Just that you are not in living in Scotland so there's no real point in trying to debate with you about the merits of voting for Scottish parties of any colour as you can't.

     

    Like I said, you seem very obsessed with the politics of another country where you can't vote. This is a bit 'abnormal'. Surely you agree? Most normal people don't do this. If you were posting a lot in other politics threads here, it might make more sense. But you are not, which suggests...

     

    If you moved to Scotland, it would make more sense as you'd be using Scottish public services etc.

     

    -----

     

    As an aside, the SNP are the most popular party for English people living in Scotland; comparable level of support to the Tories UK wide.

     

    ---

     

    Note unless I quote 'The National' or the 'Sunday Herald', then all the links I post are pro-union media sources pretty much.

     

    --

     

    What is your opinion on the DWP story, or will you neatly avoid such things again and again as you always do?

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Hailsham, East Sussex
  • Weather Preferences: Heavy snow and ice days
  • Location: Hailsham, East Sussex

    Being a Tory voting southerner I get a little frustrated sometimes with the SNPs attitude, though that's probably due to me relying on "information" on the subject coming from the English media!

    However, it's fairly straightforward for me. At next years elections I'm assuming the SNP will be the only party pledging to hold another referendum. If the Scots don't want this they can vote for one of the other parties. If the SNP win then they've been given the mandate.

    Last time I checked, that's called democracy!

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon

    Being a Tory voting southerner I get a little frustrated sometimes with the SNPs attitude, though that's probably due to me relying on "information" on the subject coming from the English media!

    However, it's fairly straightforward for me. At next years elections I'm assuming the SNP will be the only party pledging to hold another referendum. If the Scots don't want this they can vote for one of the other parties. If the SNP win then they've been given the mandate.

    Last time I checked, that's called democracy!

    Yup, and no one, least of all me, has a problem with that.

    However, democracy is also about debate and that can be pretty damn difficult here sometimes. People don't usually like being told what's best for them by their neighbours.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Being a Tory voting southerner I get a little frustrated sometimes with the SNPs attitude, though that's probably due to me relying on "information" on the subject coming from the English media!

    However, it's fairly straightforward for me. At next years elections I'm assuming the SNP will be the only party pledging to hold another referendum. If the Scots don't want this they can vote for one of the other parties. If the SNP win then they've been given the mandate.

    Last time I checked, that's called democracy!

     

    Pretty much, aye.

     

    That's how democracy works. Thankfully, in the UK, it seems to generally apply well enough (FPTP caveats, HoL unelected aside...); vote 'hard enough'* and you'll get there in the end.

     

    ----

     

    *i.e. keep voting for your cause time and again.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    I would be very surprised if any party claimed that unemployment figures showed an immediate effect of a GE result. Pretty astounding if the labour market can react that quickly to anything, let alone an election result with no policy change.

     

    The Tories repeatedly claimed that voting SNP or Labour would cost jobs because what they termed as a 'coalition of chaos' would undermine economic sentiment. 

     

     

     

    My ONLY point here has been that you lot seem obsessed by a referendum that has been and gone

     

    You seem wholly unable (or unwilling) to grasp that the constitutional debate in Scotland was not some sort of singularity on and around 18th September 2014. Because of the intransigence of UK governments over generations, constitutional issues which could have been sorted out over a century ago have been the major political issue throughout my life.

     

    As it happens I believe the point of no return has passed and independence is now inevitable, but it wasn't always the case that it would become so.   By the time I was old enough to become politically aware, it was soon clear that the democratically and peacefully expressed wishes of a majority of Scots for genuine home rule had been ignored for generations. While growing up and into early adulthood I witnessed  Scottish Ministers Scotland never elected remain in office after electoral defeat after electoral defeat - removing all norms of democratic accountability from the governance of Scotland.  

     

    If HM governments hadn't been so bloody minded and intransigent over the years,  we could have had a stable federal system of government that is fair and equitable to all the home nations (perhaps still including Ireland).

     

    I know you most likely wont, but if you watch Ian iain Macwhirter's  'Road to referendum' series (its on youtube) you'll see how this has built up over generations and how we got here. 

    Edited by skifreak
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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland
    However, it's fairly straightforward for me. At next years elections I'm assuming the SNP will be the only party pledging to hold another referendum. If the Scots don't want this they can vote for one of the other parties. If the SNP win then they've been given the mandate.

     

    Manifestos aren't written yet, but Independence is also supported by the Scottish Green Party, Scottish Socialist Party*, Solidarity, Radical Independence and the Scottish Democratic Alliance (centre right libertarian). (*SSP candidates will stand under the RISE banner in May '16)

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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    No, not specifically. Just that you are not in living in Scotland so there's no real point in trying to debate with you about the merits of voting for Scottish parties of any colour as you can't.

     

    Like I said, you seem very obsessed with the politics of another country where you can't vote. This is a bit 'abnormal'. Surely you agree? Most normal people don't do this. If you were posting a lot in other politics threads here, it might make more sense. But you are not, which suggests...

     

    If you moved to Scotland, it would make more sense as you'd be using Scottish public services etc.

     

    -----

     

    As an aside, the SNP are the most popular party for English people living in Scotland; comparable level of support to the Tories UK wide.

     

    ---

     

    Note unless I quote 'The National' or the 'Sunday Herald', then all the links I post are pro-union media sources pretty much.

     

    --

     

    What is your opinion on the DWP story, or will you neatly avoid such things again and again as you always do?

     

     

    As Scotland is part of the UK, the success of its health, education, and policing interests me, just as it does in Wales, NI, and other parts of England.

     

    My only "obsession" is that I find the constant bleating on about independence to be an unnecessary diversion from more important issues affecting that part of my country (the UK) which is also now beginning to grate on a wider, national level.

     

    The DWP story is very sad, and I think the attack on disability benefits is a disgrace. I wouldn't want to start taking one particular story as the basis for an entire diatribe, though. You can find tragic examples to attack anything, which is why I'd comment separately on the particular and the general here, whilst making clear that the case in point nonetheless exemplifies in a desperately stark way quite what an atrocious policy it is.

     

    Why would I ignore something which supports my extremely negative view of the Tories and their policies?

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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    The Tories repeatedly claimed that voting SNP or Labour would cost jobs because what they termed as a 'coalition of chaos' would undermine economic sentiment. 

     

     

     

     

    You seem wholly unable (or unwilling) to grasp that the constitutional debate in Scotland was not some sort of singularity on and around 18th September 2014. Because of the intransigence of UK governments over generations, constitutional issues which could have been sorted out over a century ago have been the major political issue throughout my life.

     

    As it happens I believe the point of no return has passed and independence is now inevitable, but it wasn't always the case that it would become so.   By the time I was old enough to become politically aware, it was soon clear that the democratically and peacefully expressed wishes of a majority of Scots for genuine home rule had been ignored for generations. While growing up and into early adulthood I witnessed  Scottish Ministers Scotland never elected remain in office after electoral defeat after electoral defeat - removing all norms of democratic accountability from the governance of Scotland.  

     

    If HM governments hadn't been so bloody minded and intransigent over the years,  we could have had a stable federal system of government that is fair and equitable to all the home nations (perhaps still including Ireland).

     

    I know you most likely wont, but if you watch Ian iain Macwhirter's  'Road to referendum' series (its on youtube) you'll see how this has built up over generations and how we got here. 

     

    Did they claim it would have an immediate effect from the first month? I very much doubt it. And if you see that idea as being so clearly ridiculous, what's wrong with me calling out the same claim made from the opposite side of the political spectrum?

     

    As for the rest of your post: yes. So a vote was held, and independence lost. Now leave it be.

    Manifestos aren't written yet, but Independence is also supported by the Scottish Green Party, Scottish Socialist Party*, Solidarity, Radical Independence and the Scottish Democratic Alliance (centre right libertarian). (*SSP candidates will stand under the RISE banner in May '16)

     

    I think it's very dangerous to start totting up the votes for all those parties who have a referendum/independence as part of their manifesto and then claim that that represents the % of the electorate who want a referendum/independence.

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland
    As for the rest of your post: yes. So a vote was held, and independence lost. Now leave it be.

     

    Independence is one solution to the constitutional debate, it isn't the only one, but if HM government thinks like you appear to that 18th Sept 2014 is the end of the Scottish constitutional debate, then it will come back and bite them on the backside. 

     

    A vote was held in May, and the Tories won. The left lost, now leave it be. Sound ridiculous and undemocratic? Well of course it does, because it is.

     

    I think it's very dangerous to start totting up the votes for all those parties who have a referendum/independence as part of their manifesto and then claim that that represents the % of the electorate who want a referendum/independence.

     

    If things pan out something similar to current polling in May 2016, then there will be more SNP MSPs, more Scottish Green MSPs and probably a handful of independent or RISE/SSP MSPs. That will be a cross party block representing a sizeable majority in Holyrood in favour of Indy and for a referendum if circumstances warrant it.

     

    It would be extremely dangerous to Scotland for the Scottish Government to sign up to no referendum for 5, 10, 20, 30 years, because that would mean it was open season on Scotland at Westminster and Scotland would have no democratic redress. 

    Edited by skifreak
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    Independence is one solution to the constitutional debate, it isn't the only one, but if HM government thinks like you appear to that 18th Sept 2014 is the end of the Scottish constitutional debate, then it will come back and bite them on the backside. 

     

    A vote was held in May, and the Tories won. The left lost, now leave it be. Sound ridiculous and undemocratic? Well of course it does, because it is.

     

    The only thing that sounds ridiculous there is your attempt at an analogy.

     

    Of course the constitutional debate will come back. But in the form of yet another referendum on independence within a few years? Nope.

     

    Re. the GE: yes, we will leave it be. No one is asking for the GE to be rerun. We accept it. We lost. GEs come round every 5 years, so we'll wait till then. Referenda do not come round every 5 years. They tend to be one-offs. In time, if other political solutions don't work, maybe there will be another one. But IN TIME. GEs and referenda are two entirely different types of political process, which is what makes your analogy so bizarre.

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    Posted
  • Location: Hailsham, East Sussex
  • Weather Preferences: Heavy snow and ice days
  • Location: Hailsham, East Sussex

    Did they claim it would have an immediate effect from the first month? I very much doubt it. And if you see that idea as being so clearly ridiculous, what's wrong with me calling out the same claim made from the opposite side of the political spectrum?

     

    As for the rest of your post: yes. So a vote was held, and independence lost. Now leave it be.

     

    I think it's very dangerous to start totting up the votes for all those parties who have a referendum/independence as part of their manifesto and then claim that that represents the % of the electorate who want a referendum/independence.

    I sort of see your point but how many people voting SNP would be in the "no" camp? SS may well have some stats on this.

    I'm only referring to the SNP as I'm assuming they're likely to win a majority without relying on the support of any other parties.

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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    Independence is one solution to the constitutional debate, it isn't the only one, but if HM government thinks like you appear to that 18th Sept 2014 is the end of the Scottish constitutional debate, then it will come back and bite them on the backside. 

     

    A vote was held in May, and the Tories won. The left lost, now leave it be. Sound ridiculous and undemocratic? Well of course it does, because it is.

     

     

     

     

    If things pan out something similar to current polling in May 2016, then there will be more SNP MSPs, more Scottish Green MSPs and probably a handful of independent or RISE/SSP MSPs. That will be a cross party block representing a sizeable majority in Holyrood in favour of Indy and for a referendum if circumstances warrant it.

     

    It would be extremely dangerous to Scotland for the Scottish Government to sign up to no referendum for 5, 10, 20, 30 years, because that would mean it was open season on Scotland at Westminster and Scotland would have no democratic redress. 

     

     I accept that this is a genuinely held fear, but I honestly think you are being unduly paranoid. Any UK govt which goes "open season" on Scotland would have to be insane and/or mindblowingly stupid. The Tories are a right old bunch, but stupid/insane they are not.

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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    I sort of see your point but how many people voting SNP would be in the "no" camp? SS may well have some stats on this.

    I'm only referring to the SNP as I'm assuming they're likely to win a majority without relying on the support of any other parties.

     

    Another point might be that, whilst there is undoubtedly a hardcore of YES supporters who put this above all else, I do wonder how many YES supporters are - like a lot of NO supporters - rather less keen on yet ANOTHER divisive and diverting referendum campaign. Surely a good number, whilst still ultimately wanting independence, are also happy to put that issue on the back burner for a while and deal with more pressing issues. This might be another example of how social media/this forum does not constitute a representative sample, not just of Scottish residents per se, but of the YES camp either.

     

    In other words, even if people vote SNP because - amongst other things - they are in favour of independence, I think it is quite a stretch to think that they all want to rerun that whole shebang again so soon.

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland
    I think it is quite a stretch to think that they all want to rerun that whole shebang again so soon.

     

    ​If there is another referendum in the near future I don't think it would be the "whole shebang" again. If the EU referendum does lead to another IndyRef for example, I expect the campaign period would be much shorter - though probably at least slightly longer than Electoral Commission stipulated minimum of 6 week period for constitutional referenda. There would be less reason to rehash all the debates and arguments from 2014, the debate would be more about how the outcome of the EU vote changes things and whether individuals who voted no in 2014 and IN the EU, chose to vote to leave the UK or leave the EU. 

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  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    ​If there is another referendum in the near future I don't think it would be the "whole shebang" again. If the EU referendum does lead to another IndyRef for example, I expect the campaign period would be much shorter - though probably at least slightly longer than Electoral Commission stipulated minimum of 6 week period for constitutional referenda. There would be less reason to rehash all the debates and arguments from 2014, the debate would be more about how the outcome of the EU vote changes things and whether individuals who voted no in 2014 and IN the EU, chose to vote to leave the UK or leave the EU. 

     

    So the economic situation is exactly the same as the SNP claimed last year? Is the oil situation the same? Have world events changed nothing? :cc_confused:

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    Posted
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
  • Weather Preferences: Freezing fog, frost, snow, sunshine.
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl

    The only thing that sounds ridiculous there is your attempt at an analogy.

     

    Of course the constitutional debate will come back. But in the form of yet another referendum on independence within a few years? Nope.

     

    Re. the GE: yes, we will leave it be. No one is asking for the GE to be rerun. We accept it. We lost. GEs come round every 5 years, so we'll wait till then. Referenda do not come round every 5 years. They tend to be one-offs. In time, if other political solutions don't work, maybe there will be another one. But IN TIME. GEs and referenda are two entirely different types of political process, which is what makes your analogy so bizarre.

    What a seemingly disparate and arbitrary pile of criteria youve just plucked out of thin air with regards to when, how and why referenda can occur.

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