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Posted
  • Location: Aberdeen
  • Location: Aberdeen

    As far as i am aware there isnt another referendum being held tomorrow , but if the scottish electorate wish to have another one then they , not you i or the snp , will decide that by voting for a party that has  a referendum promise in its manifesto.

     

    Its that simple devonian.

    Out of curiosity do you think (or are their stats to support) that all/nearly all those who support the SNP also want independence? I realise the majority will but I cannot remember what proportion. The reason I ask is that in the recent past I have voted for the SNP on a few occasions as they seemed the best option. My problem is (and I fully apprreciate you disagree with me totally on this) I wouldn't vote for them now because of the independence issue despite other policies.

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: glasgow
  • Weather Preferences: snowy winters hot summers
  • Location: glasgow

    Out of curiosity do you think (or are their stats to support) that all/nearly all those who support the SNP also want independence? I realise the majority will but I cannot remember what proportion. The reason I ask is that in the recent past I have voted for the SNP on a few occasions as they seemed the best option. My problem is (and I fully apprreciate you disagree with me totally on this) I wouldn't vote for them now because of the independence issue despite other policies.

     

    Maybe SS is the better person to ask for the stats doc but no , i dont believe all who vote for the snp want independance.

     

    I also believe the vast majority of the scottish electorate , whoever they vote for , do not support the status quo either.

     

    I am sure you took my point to devonian though that its the electorate , not the snp , who will decide if independance is a settled matter. 

     

    If i didnt support independance then personally i could never vote for a party whose main reason for existence is independance no matter how competent they are.

     

    Hope you dont take this wrong  , just interested , but following your logic could you ever vote for sinn fein back in ireland if they were extremely competent? genuine question , feel free to ignore if it offends?!

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    Posted
  • Location: Sunderland
  • Weather Preferences: Hot Summer, Snowy winter and thunderstorms all year round!
  • Location: Sunderland

    Out of curiosity do you think (or are their stats to support) that all/nearly all those who support the SNP also want independence? I realise the majority will but I cannot remember what proportion. The reason I ask is that in the recent past I have voted for the SNP on a few occasions as they seemed the best option. My problem is (and I fully apprreciate you disagree with me totally on this) I wouldn't vote for them now because of the independence issue despite other policies.

    From Prof John Curtice, an exact answer to your question.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34277133

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Out of curiosity do you think (or are their stats to support) that all/nearly all those who support the SNP also want independence? I realise the majority will but I cannot remember what proportion. The reason I ask is that in the recent past I have voted for the SNP on a few occasions as they seemed the best option. My problem is (and I fully apprreciate you disagree with me totally on this) I wouldn't vote for them now because of the independence issue despite other policies.

     

    It's around 90% Yes, 5% No, 5% DK.

     

    Then you have varying levels of Yes in voters of other parties, but quite low. Tories least pro-indy.

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    Posted
  • Location: Aberdeen
  • Location: Aberdeen

    Maybe SS is the better person to ask for the stats doc but no , i dont believe all who vote for the snp want independance.

     

    I also believe the vast majority of the scottish electorate , whoever they vote for , do not support the status quo either.

     

    I am sure you took my point to devonian though that its the electorate , not the snp , who will decide if independance is a settled matter. 

     

    If i didnt support independance then personally i could never vote for a party whose main reason for existence is independance no matter how competent they are.

     

    Hope you dont take this wrong  , just interested , but following your logic could you ever vote for sinn fein back in ireland if they were extremely competent? genuine question , feel free to ignore if it offends?!

    No it doesn't offend. When I voted for the SNP it was in the thought that it would not contribute to independence (as it was pre-referendum). I could have been wrong in that assumption but I don't mind because in the elections in question (Europe and Local council) they struck me (and perhaps still do) as one of the better if not best options.

    Re. Sinn Fein, I would find it very difficult to vote for them because of past associations (in the same way that I would not vote for ANY Unionist side that had links to violence). I have actually been here since I was 18 so, and I know it sounds a cop out, I have never actually given it a massive amount of thought as to whom I would for, as strange as that probably seems!

    I'm not sure if that actually answers your question. Probably not would be my answer but I wouldn't rule out voting for a party like the SDLP even though they are nationalist but probably not if I thought it would lead to the end of the the "NI Union". So maybe on local or European basis rather than GE? I wouldn't vote to further a cause I didn't believe in but if I did believe in the policies that are relevant for a different issue I will try to support that party. I realise that isn't often possible.

    Somewhat ironically I am greatly enjoying watching the (united) Ireland rugby team making mincemeat out of Canada in the World Cup.

    Thanks to you and AJ for your answers, I'll go and read the link.

    It's around 90% Yes, 5% No, 5% DK.

     

    Then you have varying levels of Yes in voters of other parties, but quite low. Tories least pro-indy.

    Thanks, I had a figure like that in my mind.

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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    Latest Yougov poll has 9% saying they believe more devolution has been fully delivered. 52% say very little or nothing at all has been delivered and they're correct on this.

     

    This is why we discuss polling data.

     

    It now shows a narrow majority back full independence (when averaged out) for the first time since 1997.

     

    Averaging the three different types of polling (online, telephone and door knocking) gives 52% Yes / 48% No based on 5 polls from 5 different pollsters (MORI, TNS, Survation, Yougov and Panelbase).

     

    A decent proportion of this ongoing movement to Yes may simply be due to demographic changes. The electorate has gained ~60,000 new voters who are more pro-Yes (young people) and lost around the same who are more pro-No (the elderly) since September 2014. That and the Tory majority of course, coupled by non-delivery of devo max even though a majority voted for that in May (51.4% for pro-independence parties).

     

    And?

     

    The referendum was last year. It doesn't matter if the polling has changed a bit since then. The vote has passed. What is it about this that the SNP and supporters find so hard to grasp?

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    TNS UK poll, Scottish subsample (so caveats apply).

     

    Grim reading for the Tories.

     

    As you can expect, people are battening down the hatches in preparation for no growth / things getting worse, incomes being reduced as is to be expected from the Tories based on their historical record.

     

    It's a pity, as we were seeing slowly recovering.

     

    In the next 12 months do you think that your income is more likely to increase, stay the same or go down?
    24% Go down
    63% Stay the same
    12% Increase
    =-12% NET
     
    Do you feel that your current job is ....?
    34% Less safe than it was 12 months ago
    50% Much the same as it was 12 months ago
    10% More safe than it was 12 months ago
    =-24% NET
     
    Compared to a year ago, do you think that the British economy is doing....?
    17% Worse
    68% Same
    15% Bettr
    =-2% NET
     
    Thinking about the year ahead, in 12 months time do you think the British economy will be doing:....?
    22% Worse
    64% Same
    14% Better
    =-8% NET
     
    Preparing for the worse evidence in this question:
     
    Suppose you received a substantial increase in your income, which of the following would you be most likely to do with it?
    44% Save it / increase pension
    29% Use it to pay off debts such as mortgages, loans
    22% Spend it on things...
     
    =low consumer confidence
     
    Compared to a year ago, do you find it easier or harder to meet your monthly household budget? Would you say it is...?
    26% Harder
    57% About the same
    17% Easier
    =-9% NET
     
    How would you rate the UK government's management of the economy over the last 12 months?
    24% Good
    43% Poor
    =-19% NET
     
    How would you rate the government's management of immigration into the UK over the last 12 months?
    69% Poor
    6% Good
    =-63% NET
     
    Tory handling of the refugee crisis seen as farcical to top it off.
    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    In response to NickR's post about social media not being representative: The reason why Yes dominated online and social media to the extent that it does, is because it does accurately reflect the demographics that dominate such platforms.

     

    Over 65s are the only age group pro Union, but it's not that people become pro union as they get older - actually the historical evidence is that the personal direction of travel is much more likely to be in the other direction. Indeed if we were to go back 25 years, it would be the 40 to 60 group that was most 'British' and pro-union, after which Scottish NatID increased with age.

    The YES vote didn't win just because of the over 65s.

     

    Social Media might accurately portray the demographics that dominate such platforms. But I think you are overestimating what those demographics are. It's not just age, but subsections within different ages.

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    Posted
  • Location: glasgow
  • Weather Preferences: snowy winters hot summers
  • Location: glasgow

    No it doesn't offend. When I voted for the SNP it was in the thought that it would not contribute to independence (as it was pre-referendum). I could have been wrong in that assumption but I don't mind because in the elections in question (Europe and Local council) they struck me (and perhaps still do) as one of the better if not best options.

    Re. Sinn Fein, I would find it very difficult to vote for them because of past associations (in the same way that I would not vote for ANY Unionist side that had links to violence). I have actually been here since I was 18 so, and I know it sounds a cop out, I have never actually given it a massive amount of thought as to whom I would for, as strange as that probably seems!

    I'm not sure if that actually answers your question. Probably not would be my answer but I wouldn't rule out voting for a party like the SDLP even though they are nationalist but probably not if I thought it would lead to the end of the the "NI Union". So maybe on local or European basis rather than GE? I wouldn't vote to further a cause I didn't believe in but if I did believe in the policies that are relevant for a different issue I will try to support that party. I realise that isn't often possible.

    Somewhat ironically I am greatly enjoying watching the (united) Ireland rugby team making mincemeat out of Canada in the World Cup.

    Thanks to you and AJ for your answers, I'll go and read the link.

    Thanks, I had a figure like that in my mind.

    Thanks for your reply doc.

     

    I know we have had our disagreements in the past and i apologise if i have been a bit harsh , but this was just a genuine question regarding sinn fein and in no way an attempt to trip you up.

     

    Like i said , i am attempting to understand your reasoning for voting snp and i applaud you for it , but i could never vote snp if i didnt agree with independance , but thats me.

     

    We are massivley on the opposite side of the fence politically , but from my point of view whilst i disagree with some of what you say and sometimes how you say it i hope you continue to post in this section as your opinion is welcome and although you may be in the minority in your views on this thread i genuinely find you always attempt to engage with people and debate.

     

    Glad you are enjoying the rugby , sadly im not a rugby fan.

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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

    The promises in the Vow and made by Gordon Brown in an extended live broadcast speech just before the referendum are seen as having been honoured by only 9% of Scottish voters. 

     

    As for arguing a reasonable case can be made that they promises have been kept - well perhaps from where you are sitting that might appear so given the the MSM bias. However the constitutional debate isn't just a few years old, it's generations old in Scotland and the terms, Home Rule, DevoMax and Full Fiscal Autonomy aren't really up for interpretation - they have very long established and specific meaning in the Scottish Constitutional debate and the Scotland Bill currently before parliament comes not even remotely close to that.

     

     

    As for SNP and the wider Yes movement being the anti-democratic ones... Yes Scotland Rally in George Square in the early hours of 19th September:

     

    attachicon.gif19-sept-4.jpg

     

    Loyalists response to winning the referendum and having charged the Yes Scotland rally out of George Square:

     

    attachicon.gif19-sept-3.jpg

    attachicon.gif19-sept-2.jpg

    attachicon.gif19-sept-1.jpg

     

    https://vine.co/v/OWPzrhni0Aj

    And they are, of course, absolutely NOT cherry picked photos to prove your point, but entirely representative examples which have gone through proper sampling and peer review.

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    Posted
  • Location: glasgow
  • Weather Preferences: snowy winters hot summers
  • Location: glasgow

    It’s a year on from the big vote, and everything has changed and nothing has changed. Scotland has changed forever, Westminster hasn’t changed at all. Scotland buzzed with energy, with hope, and found a new self-confidence and inner strength. It wasn’t enough to win the vote, but it was enough to win independence of spirit and mind. Scotland is already independent in its imagination and in its dreams. This is not the same country that it was a few short years ago. Once the box of hope was opened, things could never go back to the way they were before.

    The knowledge that that profound change is irreversible is why the Unionists remain angry and bitter, afraid and uncertain as they inch gingerly along, never knowing when the Union will plunge to its doom. They know that their old certainties are gone, they’re afraid of what might replace them, so they scream that everything is uncertain. But the only uncertainty is within them.

    The Union won the vote at the cost of surrendering its foundations and setting sail on a tide of negativity and fear. Now it’s beached itself on public disgust and it’s only a matter of time before the shifted sands swallow it. Yet Westminster sails on, blythely disregarding the referendum vote, believing it was fought on Westminster’s winner takes it all rules. It wasn’t. This was a Scottish vote, fought on Scottish terms. The rules have changed forever now, and the Union sits on quicksand, trying to pretend it’s solid and unyielding. But it’s a charade, and the charade was exposed last year. The hollowness and weakness of the Union was on public display last year. We saw the emperor naked.

    The result ought to have been a massive shock to a complacent parliament, a warning that it needed to change in order to prevent Scotland slipping out of its grasp once and for all. All over Scotland Yes voters made their own personal vows, that they would work unceasingly until the corrupt and unscrupulous Union was brought down. A state only retains its authority when its citizens believe in its power. Last year a half of Scotland stopped believing. Westminster ignored that message, and went back to pauchle as usual immediately afterwards. The Smith Commission became a game of deceit as the Unionist parties competed with one another to see how little they could get away with. Scotland looked on, sullenly.

    We took revenge in May when we destroyed the Unionist parties in Scotland, leaving them with one MP each like the stuffed heads of an endangered species to decorate the wall. And still Westminster didn’t listen to the sound of the motor for change. That motor was driven by disgust at the corrupt antics of Westminster MPs, their unaccountability, the way in which they serve themselves first and foremost, and even when we vote them out of office they still gain rewards. Yet the very day before the anniversary of the biggest kick in the nads that the Westminster Parlaiment has received in a generation, Westminster demonstrated yet again how out of touch it was, and how it didn’t give a damn.

     

    https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2015/09/17/independence-of-mind/   

     

    I enjoyed this article , some of it is quite apt!!!

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    Posted
  • Location: Newton in Bowland
  • Location: Newton in Bowland

    This thread is quite amusing for those of us south of the border and demonstrates just how democracy shouldn't be, remind me again what the vote was on independence?

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    Forgot to add the latest ICM UK (13th September) poll Scottish subsample:

     

    Westminster VI:

    61% SNP

    16% Con

    14% lab

    3% Green

    2% Lib

    2% UKIP

     

    Filed that one under 'eye candy'. :)

     

    Mind you, it's not that different to TNS-BMRB full Scotland polls!

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold. Enjoy all extremes though.
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.

    And?

     

    The referendum was last year. It doesn't matter if the polling has changed a bit since then. The vote has passed. What is it about this that the SNP and supporters find so hard to grasp?

     

     

     Westminster broke its word.   Why do you find THAT so hard to grasp?  Cause and effect.

    Edited by Blitzen
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

     Westminster broke their word.   Why do you find that so difficult to grasp?  Cause and effect!

     

    a) I'm not convinced they have;

    b) Economic predictions have changed too, with Scotland's economic outlook far FAR less rosy than the SNP duped people into believing. 

     

    Here's a shocker: both sides prettied things up to try to get votes. If the vote had been YES, would you have been arguing that the economic reality would have meant there should be a rerun?

     

    I just don't get why there is so much bleating on and moaning. Why not just get on with life and trying to solve day to day problems of governance.

    Edited by NickR
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    Interesting message from Tory and unionist Alex Massie in the Spectator.

    All of which helps create the circumstances in which Unionism, to the extent it breathes at all, is consumed by a kind of peevishness. Unionists complain that the nationalists promised the referendum would be a once in a lifetime opportunity or, perhaps, a once in a Renfrewshire generation chance of imagining a different future. So they did.
     
    But if you believed that at the time you were a fool and sensible Unionists always knew that was a nationalist bluff designed to concentrate minds last September. Now Unionists complain that the nationalists are failing to keep a promise no Unionist ever expected them to keep in the first place. You might as well complain about the highland midge.
     
    I understand many Unionists would just like it all to go away. But it isn’t going away and won’t do so either... 
     
    Ooch. That's quite a slap down of fellow unionists from him.
    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City
  • Location: Gilesgate Moor, Durham City

     

    Interesting message from Tory and unionist Alex Massie in the Spectator.
     
     
    Ooch. That's quite a slap down of fellow unionists from him.

     

     

    It's hardly a character reference for nationalists either!!

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    Posted
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold in winter and dry and very warm in summer
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.

    a) I'm not convinced they have;

    b) Economic predictions have changed too, with Scotland's economic outlook far FAR less rosy than the SNP duped people into believing. 

     

    Here's a shocker: both sides prettied things up to try to get votes. If the vote had been YES, would you have been arguing that the economic reality would have meant there should be a rerun?

     

    I just don't get why there is so much bleating on and moaning. Why not just get on with life and trying to solve day to day problems of governance.

    Agree. We have already established that many members of this thread would need fairly extreme reasons (ie external attack or complete devastation - so highly unlikely) to re-join the union had there been a YES vote or to 'regret' the YES vote.

    Therefore, questions of 'would you join the union today if we were independent' are fairly irrelevant in my eyes, certainly 'skewed' if nothing else.

    As I've said before I think there should be a minimum break period between referenda on the same subject/issue. (Same goes for any future EU referendum)

    I get the 'democracy' argument but frankly I don't believe we are at a point where a decisive result would take place. The polls may have narrowed but evidence for a reasonable swing in one year (yes, it's a ticking clock demographically but one year? No way) is IMO fairly scarse.

    We had 'that yougov' which was due to the 'swinging' voters moving to YES but on the day a lot of those voters went NO. So I do believe the 'true' picture was maybe a bit nearer 50/50 than 55/45 and therefore, I only see a slight slide to 50/50 (still don't see YES being ahead ie push comes to shove, the 'big' decision, NO will always have an advantage. Ticking an online box is easier for an undecided or 'swing' voter).

    I was chatting to a NO voter (working on a presentation with him at uni, he's 30 and married, has a young child etc) and he and I agreed that independence is inevitable. He's quite saddened by that eventuality and I'm not particularly enthused but the writing is on the wall, however, not before 2020 IMO. More like by 2025 I would think.

    We shall see, nobody can accurately predict the future but one year on, the public are still highly engaged.

    --------------------------

    I will refrain from binging and old debate back up but hopefully after this minor disagreement on this thread we can have perhaps more people contributing and debating if the atmosphere is deemed to be less hostile.

    Personally never found it to be bad but I do not agree with some that a 'thicker skin' was needed and if you were to call me out in public by shouting that I was a 'traitor' and that I should be 'ashamed' of a political and/or religious decision I have made... You'd be the one needed thicker skin as I'd have you. I genuinely would be asking you for a 'square go' and that's no word of a lie.

    So let's not post such abhorrent comments online where people can't settle their differences and must take the abuse

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    Posted
  • Location: @scotlandwx
  • Weather Preferences: Crystal Clear High Pressure & Blue Skies
  • Location: @scotlandwx

    Massie is a solid respected writer, very telling that he is openly acknowledging the continued momentum, those are insightful VI stats.

     

    Found this quite interesting re: the constitution of MPs across the political compass per parliament, goes on to argue Federalism is the next step in order to save the UK.

     

    http://www.wealthynationinstitute.com/the-future-proof-strategy.html

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    As I've said before I think there should be a minimum break period between referenda on the same subject/issue. (Same goes for any future EU referendum)

     

    I'm largely of the same opinion apart from you can't physically set a minimum, like with an Ed Stone or something, only have a general rule of thumb.

     

    The standard time period for such things in democracies is a parliamentary term, so max 4-5 years*. If you put a referendum on something in your manfesto and don't win, your next earliest chance is the next parliament where, if you think it politically expedient, you put it in your manifesto again. The electorate then decide if they want that or not when they vote in the election.

     

    In democracies, you always specify the very maximum period of time that must pass before people should be given a chance to vote again on something if they want that.

     

    Putting minimum periods is not done because that goes against the basic concept of democracy / encourages totalitarianism. This is done for governments (UK it is 5 years) and for presidents (often two terms) to avoid them becoming dictatorial; and we've seen many examples of dodgy presidents trying to exactly that, i.e. change the constitution to allow them to remain in power!

     

    In contrast, there is no minimum. An election results only holds to the next by-election when, in theory, a narrow majority could be overturned within weeks. Likewise, a vote of no confidence can bring down a government much earlier than the max period it can rule for without a general election.

     

    Putting a minimum time period on a referendum would fall foul of democracy for these same reasons, it would change governance from democratic to dictatorial. People in Scotland would have no way of resisting Westminster rule by democratic means.

     

    We are watching the effect of the fact that the SNP can hold another iref if they want right now. Do people think we'd be getting the pathetic devo nano if there wasn't the possibility of another iref ever present? Of course not; we'd be getting jack s**t. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the Tories would try to close Holyrood. After all, they were against it from the start.

     

    ---

     

    *In the latest Survation and MORI polls, there is comfortable majority support for a new iref within the next parliamentary term.

     

    You also see resistance to another big vote drop rapidly the further you get from the first one. It's natural human behaviour to, if anything, just avoid sounding stupid. If you ask them just after, they might say 'we should wait 10 years'. Ask them a year later, they might say 'we should wait 5 years'. Ask them after 2 years and you can find they suddenly back a new vote immediately!

     

    Part of this is so much can also change too; a week is a long time in politics. The UK politically looks totally different to how it did last September.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Massie is a solid respected writer, very telling that he is openly acknowledging the continued momentum, those are insightful VI stats.

     

    Found this quite interesting re: the constitution of MPs across the political compass per parliament, goes on to argue Federalism is the next step in order to save the UK.

     

    http://www.wealthynationinstitute.com/the-future-proof-strategy.html

     

    Don't we have federalism right now?

     

    Did Better Together lie to us?

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    Posted
  • Location: Hailsham, East Sussex
  • Weather Preferences: Heavy snow and ice days
  • Location: Hailsham, East Sussex

    Westminster broke its word. Why do you find THAT so hard to grasp? Cause and effect.

    Genuine question, as I know far less about the Independence issue than many on here.

    Which specific promises haven't been kept? Also was there a timescale for when these were supposed to be implemented?

    Edited by lawrenk
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    Posted
  • Location: Devizes Wiltshire
  • Location: Devizes Wiltshire

    UK-Elect Scottish Parliament Forecast, by @UKElect SNP 71 +3 LAB 26 -12 CON 24 +9 GRN 5 +3 LD 3 -2 IND 0 -1

     

    http://ukgeneralelection2020.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/uk-elect-scottish-parliament-forecast.html

     

    Torys to make gains in Scottish Parliament? 

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    Posted
  • Location: glasgow
  • Weather Preferences: snowy winters hot summers
  • Location: glasgow

    Don't we have federalism right now?

     

    Did Better Together lie to us?

    Exactly.

     

    I would like to know exactly what they mean by federalism.

     

    You can be 100 per cent assured westminster`s definition of federalism , which as we all suspect would be nothing more than a pathetic stitch up , would differ from the rest of the civilised worlds version of federalism.

     

    Westminster cannot be trusted , and i think the scottish people clearly understand this for the most part.

     

    The time for a federal solution is long since past , they could have implemented it at any point over the last century instead have fought tooth and nail to keep the same people in the same country in charge of the uk , conceding as little power as they possibly could along the way to the nations of the uk and only when their backs are to the wall.

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