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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon

    A year is a long time...

     

    There are now ~60,000 voters in Scotland who've never had the chance to vote on Scotland's constitutional future. A similar number will no longer be with us.

     

    By the end of the next Scottish parliamentary term, the number of completely new voters will comfortably exceed the difference in votes between the two sides and be over double the swing needed to change the result.

     

    This alone is why democracy must be a neverendum.

    The above is one of several extraordinary posts in this page of the thread.

    What you are saying is SNP democracy is about asking the same question over and over again until you get the 'right' result and then never, ever, consulting the electorate on that question again. What kind of democracy is that? Not one known to man...

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    The above is one of several extraordinary posts in this page of the thread.

    What you are saying is SNP democracy is about asking the same question over and over again until you get the 'right' result and then never, ever, consulting the electorate on that question again. What kind of democracy is that? Not one known to man...

     

    You aren't honestly saying you want to deny 100's of 1000's (which it will be in a couple of years due to deaths and people coming of voting age) the right to vote on something they've never been asked before. That's a very anti-democratic position to hold. Extreme totalitarianism and anti-young people in particular.

     

    In an independent Scotland, parties would be free to stand on a 'hold referendum to rejoin the union' manifesto pledge at every election. So a Yes to independence doesn't stop further votes on the matter in any way.

     

    Note you can only get the 'right' result if people vote for what you want. Asking them multiple times doesn't force them to give a different answer and you risk annoying them so they put you out of power.

     

    You are openly insulting the intelligence of Scottish people if you are implying that they're so stupid that they'd actually give a different answer to what they wanted (i.e. vote for independence when they wanted to remain in the union) just because the Scottish government kept asking them. 

     

    Tories have been asking me to vote for them multiple times since I turned 18. I've never gone 'Oh god, ok, since you keep asking!'

     

    Insulting the people of a nation is not a way to win hearts and minds.

    Edited by Paul
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon
  • Location: Near Newton Abbot or east Dartmoor, Devon

    You aren't honestly saying you want to deny 100's of 1000's (which it will be in a couple of years due to deaths and people coming of voting age) the right to vote on something they've never been asked before. That's a very anti-democratic position to hold.

     

    In an independent Scotland, parties would be free to stand on a 'hold referendum to rejoin the union' manifesto pledge at every election. So a Yes to independence doesn't stop further votes on the matter in any way.

     

    Note you can only get the 'right' result if people vote for what you want. Asking them multiple times doesn't force them to give a different answer and you risk annoying them so they put you out of power.

     

    You are openly insulting the intelligence of Scottish people if you are implying that they're so stupid that they'd actually give a different answer to what they wanted (i.e. vote for independence when they wanted to remain in the union) just because the Scottish government kept asking them. 

     

    Tories have been asking me to vote for them multiple times since I turned 18. I've never gone 'Oh god, ok, since you keep asking!'

     

    Insulting the people of a nation is not a way to win hearts and minds.

    I'm talking (as you well know) about referendums, about neverendums. I asked a question and now I'm insulting the Socts .

    Bye, I'll let you intimidate me into silence again, the floor is yours....

    Edited by Paul
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    No, just noticed it was anniversary day, saw Sturgeon, popped in here asked a question and (blow me down) get accused of being a troll...but it such accusation set the kind of tone you want...

     

    I'm talking (as you well know) about referendums, about neverendums. I asked a question and now I'm insulting the Socts (lets remember, you called me a troll!).

    Bye, I'll let you intimidate me into silence again, the floor is yours....

     

    Nah, I've got better things to be doing (like fixing a shower).

     

    Note polls now show a majority back independence.

     

    If that's true, it would undemocratic to deny them that choice. Only tinpot dictatorships do that.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
  • Weather Preferences: Freezing fog, frost, snow, sunshine.
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl

    Bye, I'll let you intimidate me into silence again, the floor is yours....

    Lord above, wind your neck in and stop trying to play victim.

    What's your question? I'll gladly oblige if only to stop the big bad ScottishSkier.

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    Posted
  • Location: Hailsham, East Sussex
  • Weather Preferences: Heavy snow and ice days
  • Location: Hailsham, East Sussex

    May be a daft question but assuming another referendum takes place before the next GE what happens to the Scottish MPs if there's a yes vote?

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    May be a daft question but assuming another referendum takes place before the next GE what happens to the Scottish MPs if there's a yes vote?

     

    This was much debated before the last iref and it wasn't totally clear; depends on negotiations with Westminster. If it wants to pass laws affecting Scotland prior to any official indy day, Scottish MPs need to still be there voting.

     

    If not, they don't.

     

    I think if Scotland did end up having another iref and voting Yes, then you could largely discount its MPs for most votes. It wouldn't make a lot of sense for them to hang around.

     

    ---

     

    On a different topic...

     

    Another interesting academic article on how unionists are the ones breaking up the union.

     

    http://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/blog/can-union-be-saved-unionists

     

    Can the Union be saved from Unionists?
     
    Since the independence referendum a year ago, unionists have been trying to find a way to define what it is and a core and purpose of 'Britishness'. If they continue in this vein, says Michael Keating, they run the risk of destroying the very thing they are trying to save.

     

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Hailsham, East Sussex
  • Weather Preferences: Heavy snow and ice days
  • Location: Hailsham, East Sussex

    This was much debated before the last iref and it wasn't totally clear; depends on negotiations with Westminster. If it wants to pass laws affecting Scotland prior to any official indy day, Scottish MPs need to still be there voting.

     

    If not, they don't.

     

    I think if Scotland did end up having another iref and voting Yes, then you could largely discount its MPs for most votes. It wouldn't make a lot of sense for them to hang around.

     

    ---

     

    On a different topic...

     

    Another interesting academic article on how unionists are the ones breaking up the union.

    Thanks SS

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    Posted
  • Location: glasgow
  • Weather Preferences: snowy winters hot summers
  • Location: glasgow

    The above is one of several extraordinary posts in this page of the thread.

    What you are saying is SNP democracy is about asking the same question over and over again until you get the 'right' result and then never, ever, consulting the electorate on that question again. What kind of democracy is that? Not one known to man...

    Devonian!

     

    yer back!!!

     

    Just when the determination of gaining independance ebbs slightly away , when you come on forums like these and you read the posts of  decent human beings like knocker , ed stone and aj poolshark to name but a few , and you think ahh well , its no too bad  , out comes the scaly backed reptiles spouting their poison and driving up my determination yet again.

     

    I dont mind tories. I see them as the honoured enemy , standing toe to toe with them and knowing the attack will come into your face.

     

    Its your ilk i cannae stand. The so called anglo liberal / labour types , ten a penny , who talk of britian when they really mean england and barp up the usual guff about hating nationalism when you are among the biggest british nationalists on this forum. 

     

    Thanks devonian. You have just given me the wee kick up the backside i needed. :)

    Edited by balmaha
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Erm, been giving him some slack while I get the measure of the man, but I'm not sure what this Corbyn guys idea of a socialist republic is...

     

    First he puts unelected, ermined peer Lord Falconer as his shadowed justice secretary, now:

     

    http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/1329022-corbyn-appoints-disgraced-fire-raising-lord-mike-watson-to-front-bench/

     

    Corbyn appoints disgraced fire-raising peer to shadow front bench
     
    Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has appointed disgraced peer Mike Watson, who was jailed for fire-raising, to a front bench job.
     
    Lord Watson, a former MP and MSP, will be the party's spokesman on education in the House of Lords.
     
    In 2005 he was sentenced to 16 months in jail for starting a fire which endangered lives at Prestonfield House hotel in Edinburgh.
     
    He set fire to a curtain at the exclusive hotel following a drinking session at the Scottish Politician of the Year awards in 2004.
     
    Lord Watson? Whit! Ermined life peer and convicted fire raiser?
     
    Next he'll have Lord Foulkes in his cabinet.
    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: St rads Dover
  • Weather Preferences: Snow, T Storms.
  • Location: St rads Dover

     

    Erm, been giving him some slack while I get the measure of the man, but I'm not sure what this Corbyn guys idea of a socialist republic is...

     

    First he puts unelected, ermined peer Lord Falconer as his shadowed justice secretary, now:

     

     
    Lord Watson? Whit! Ermined life peer and convicted fire raiser?
     
    Next he'll have Lord Foulkes in his cabinet.

     

    Sounds like an accident done by a drunk person to me, how ever I get your point no second chances for ex cons. Nice to know that is the case. Sounds like he would know more than a general person about the justice system to me. Could be interesting to hear what he has to say. 

    Edited by alexisj9
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Sounds like an accident done by a drunk person to me, how ever I get your point no second chances for ex cons. Nice to know that is the case. Sounds like he would know more than a general person about the justice system to me. Could be interesting to here what he has to say. 

     

    I was more on about putting elected peers in his team.

     

    I would never support a party that had peers. If Labour were really against the HoL, they could withdraw all their peers tomorrow, rendering it useless / unable to operate and forcing reform by that means, even if they are not in power.

     

    As for Watson...

     

    The judge concluded he's at high risk of doing so again. He offered no real explanation for why he did it - twice on the same night - rather than just doing it once and saying it was a stupid prank. He set curtains on fire in a hotel; could have been a disaster with deaths. It's not like he lit a fart or something.

     

    He did his time, but really, it doesn't come across as sensible for Corbyn to give him such a role, as much for the peerage as anything.

     

    7 in 10 in Scotland want the HoL abolished for example.

    Good Arab is Mike Watson, fine chap.

     

     

    LOL

     

    He should stick to football.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE
  • Location: NR LOURDES SW FRANCE

    Mhairi Black was on Channel 4 News just now and Jon Snow also interviewed her. She's absolutely charming and inspirational and a credit to the SNP.

     

    Apparently she loves anything to do with Titanic and shes also not bad on the piano!

    Edited by nick sussex
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    Posted
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.
  • Weather Preferences: Thunder, snow, heat, sunshine...
  • Location: Beccles, Suffolk.

    Well we do have a government front-bench well-versed in restaurant-destruction? So what's new? :D

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

     

     Now they'd do well to address their own failures as a government before bleating on about independence yet again.

     

     

    Sturgeon / the SNP have 70% satisfied ratings and are on 55% (+10% on 2011) for May.

     

    Also, support for indy is now just ahead in polls on average.

     

    You need to keep up.

     

    For me, it's the pro-union parties that need to take a long, hard look at the massive failures that they are right now, especially the Tories who polls suggest could get a new record low in May 16 to add to an all time record low they got in May's GE.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
  • Weather Preferences: Freezing fog, frost, snow, sunshine.
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl

    Personally, I am fed up to the back teeth with Sturgeon, Salmond, and the SNP generally.

    Away you go, really?

    That comes as a shock.

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    What I took from that at the time, and still do, was that he didn't think we'd get the chance to hold another referendum for a number of years. That may indeed be the case, time will tell, but it was never intended as a promise.

     

     

    The wider context of the once in a generation opportunity quote was that AS had just commentated that  the circumstances which brought around the various constitutional referenda in Scotland had been such that they occurred 17, then 18 years apart and thus it seemed likely the circumstances required to have another vote wouldn't come around again for a similar period of time. 

     

    Devonian's posts as usual in this thread are stuff and nonsense. Democracy is by it's nature a neverendum, there would be nothing to stop the Conservative and Unionist party proposing a Union Referendum in an independent Scotland. Of course the reason die hard Unionists get their knickers in a twist over this is, that they know this is a one way street, the destination is known, we're just working on the timetable and all the evidence is that only a tiny minority would ever vote to re-enter the UK. 

     

    What John Smith said to Michael Heseltine about the Tory government on Question  Time in 1992 still rings true today:

     

    https://youtu.be/0gHVokKt82I?t=12m02s

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    The above is one of several extraordinary posts in this page of the thread.

    What you are saying is SNP democracy is about asking the same question over and over again until you get the 'right' result and then never, ever, consulting the electorate on that question again. What kind of democracy is that? Not one known to man...

     

    Democracy is about having a free and fair vote. It's a little unfair if an election/referendum is won based upon lies. Can you honestly say hand on heart that all the promises made by the unionist politicians in the run up to the referendum have been kept?

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    Posted
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
  • Weather Preferences: Freezing fog, frost, snow, sunshine.
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl

    I don't think it's fair to label devonian's posts as stuff and nonsense, he's perfectly entitled to his opinion as are the opinions of all pro-union posters, this is after all a non-partisan thread covering all parts of the Scottish political spectrum. A tad more respect for all posters from all posters wouldn't go amiss in this thread, after all we are discussing the politics of a democratic nation, although you wouldn't necessarily believe it reading the diatribe occasionally posted in here

    I think people need to grow thicker skin. If people think this is bad (really? Can some one highlight the monstrous posts that are getting people in tears?) then, judging by the UK politics threads and others, the EU referendum is going to be a terribly rude awakening for many.

    People are perfectly entitled to their opinion. But people are also perfectly entitled to call another person's reasoning or argument nonsense. Such is the nature of an adult conversation regarding politics.

    Edited by NorthernRab
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    Posted
  • Location: Peterborough
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and frost in the winter. Hot and sunny, thunderstorms in the summer.
  • Location: Peterborough

    Personally for me there needs to be a clear red line crossed before another Iref starts to be honest, that of course includes a UK exit from the EU against Scotland's will. Otherwise whilst it is of course a great cause to have the population vote on such a big issue, the economic costs from uncertainty which comes from such a referendum makes the issue one that shouldn't be done on a regular basis so to speak.

    Lets hope there is a change in tone from Westminster soon, hopefully with a change in opposition leader as frankly my position is hopefully rUK instead of pro-UK now.

    Edited by Captain shortwave
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    Posted
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
  • Weather Preferences: Freezing fog, frost, snow, sunshine.
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl

    Personally for me there needs to be a clear red line crossed before another Iref starts to be honest, that of course includes a UK exit from the EU against Scotland's will. Otherwise whilst it is of course a great cause to have the population vote on such a big issue, the economic costs from uncertainty which comes from such a referendum makes the issue one that shouldn't be done on a regular basis so to speak.

    Lets hope there is a change in tone from Westminster soon, hopefully with a change in opposition leader as frankly my position is hopefully rUK instead of pro-UK now.

    Or when the citizens democratically vote for one.

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