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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Near King's Lynn 13.68m ASL
  • Weather Preferences: Hoar Frost, Snow, Misty Autumn mornings
  • Location: Near King's Lynn 13.68m ASL

    I'd be happy to. When your primary language is a global language it seems batty to indoctrinate the children.

     

    Irish is the official first language in Ireland, but everyone speaks English anyway. No-one is talking about indoctrination. 

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    Eh, how exactly is learning a language indoctrination? What an empty, vacuous statement.

    Its en encouraging children to be culturally distinct from the English.

    Perhaps its because the economy and foreign policy decide it for me but nationalism annoys me.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near King's Lynn 13.68m ASL
  • Weather Preferences: Hoar Frost, Snow, Misty Autumn mornings
  • Location: Near King's Lynn 13.68m ASL

    To tackle it from another angle.. Why is teaching these small languages the job of the state rather than yourself or somebody you pay.

    Why not take a Saturday afternoon to teach people yourself.

     

    All public education is paid for by the State. Is it cheaper to teach kids Mandarin/French/German rather than Scots/Welsh?

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    Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    All public education is paid for by the State. Is it cheaper to teach kids Mandarin/French/German rather than Scots/Welsh?

     

    That's my point.

     

    I see no convincing reason that the state should pay for this when that money could be spent on more global languages or even other subjects.

     

    If i want to learn Scots, i can pay to take a class.

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    Posted
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
  • Weather Preferences: Freezing fog, frost, snow, sunshine.
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl

    Its en encouraging children to be culturally distinct from the English.

    Perhaps its because the economy and foreign policy decide it for me but nationalism annoys me.

    What if they are culturally distinct from the English?

    Better cancel all the fiddle and clarsach lessons in Scottish schools, it's 'indoctrinating' the children into being different!

    Edited by NorthernRab
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Its en encouraging children to be culturally distinct from the English.

     

    Then the teaching of English should stop in Schools in England by the same logic; it's just encouraging people to be culturally distinct from other European nations. Straightforward nationalism. We should all learn Esperanto or something.

     

    Sorry, but given 62.4% of Scots don't even voluntarily self identity as British, and if forced to choose, ~74% would pick Scottish and just 18% British (a good half of which are actually English immigrants), I think fretting about cultural differences is a bit futile.

     

    I think if you went over to Denmark and told them they should forget about learning Danish and instead learn German to make them not culturally distinct you'd get a pretty frosty reception.

     

    Personally, I love cultural distinctions; partly what attracted me to my wife and why I love France. What a boring place a monocultural, monolingual world would be.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    I don't have time to look up exact figures (have you not got Google? :) ) but it was around 5 to 1 in 1800 I think.

     

    Historically schools in Scotland have worked hard to eradicate the Scots language, so I'm not sure what the issue is with some rebalancing? It was slightly different for me as I was sent to an independent (i.e. private) school, but we were not permitted to even say "Aye" at school. Doing so resulted in a punishment exercise. I know that independent schools still forbid their pupils to even say "Aye", let alone use any other Scots language. Also, we were taught history but it was English history. Scotland only became apparent from union onwards. Again though, this was in an independent school so it would probs not have been like that in a state school.

     

    When I look back I'm surprised I ever made it to be a supporter of independence. My parents are massively pro-Union and my schooling was massively pro-Union. It took a lot of unpicking of my programming to get to the point I'm at today.

     

    My great grandfather was a classics teacher in Huntly. Doric was the first language of many children but they were forbidden to speak it in class on pain of the strap. My Grandpa said not many kids wanted to feel the strap more than once...

    Edited by Hairy Celt
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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL

    I have mixed feelings on the matter to be honest. Is there even an identifiable Scots written/spoken language? I'm from Dundee, and a Dundonian speaking Dundonian would have as much difficulty in conversing with a Scotsman spealin braid Scotch from Maybole as speaking to someone from Somerset, oo ar'

     

    For me, Scots is a spoken language of various dialects and I'm not sure what we would be teaching. I did plenty of Burns at school and it was as difficult reading that as Shakespeare.

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    Posted
  • Location: Ancrum
  • Weather Preferences: HOT SUNSHINE!
  • Location: Ancrum

    But we are culturally different from the English. And it's not indoctrination teaching bairns their own language.

    The Irish learn Gaelic at school, and I never hear any fuss about it.

    Edited by mardatha
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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    We've had two election promos from Ian Blackford (SNP candidate for here) this week. The first one had a photo of him with a saltire as background, the next one (today), has him on a white background, no saltire in view.  Must have been listening to SS :unsure2: (tone it down, chaps...)

     

    I know you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but this guy doesn't look like he knows much about inequality or deprivation.... he's a merchant banker; I wonder on which side of the moderate centre he stands :nonono: .

     

    Jeez - just read a 'profile' of him on some business website. If I'd decided to vote SNP on the basis of their social policies, I'd now be changing my mind!

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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL

    The Irish learn Gaelic at school, and I never hear any fuss about it.

    No they don't. It is not compulsory in the the Irish curriculum to teach Irish although some schools do. Irish Law actually states that paperwork should be communicated in English. Of my many Irish friends, not one speaks it.

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    Posted
  • Location: Ancrum
  • Weather Preferences: HOT SUNSHINE!
  • Location: Ancrum

    Oooh that's odd? I talk to loads of people in Dublin and Galway, they all tell me they get it at school. 

    I don't think Gaelic should be taught in lowland schools, just the highlands and islands.

    I don't think there's much point teaching Lowland Scots as a language as its just variation on english, not a separate language altogether.

    We still haven't had any doorstep canvassers, the husband is still lurking behind the letterbox praying for a politician to argue with, but no joy yet.

    Edited by mardatha
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    We've had two election promos from Ian Blackford (SNP candidate for here) this week. The first one had a photo of him with a saltire as background, the next one (today), has him on a white background, no saltire in view.  Must have been listening to SS :unsure2: (tone it down, chaps...)

     

    I know you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but this guy doesn't look like he knows much about inequality or deprivation.... he's a merchant banker; I wonder on which side of the moderate centre he stands :nonono: .

     

    Jeez - just read a 'profile' of him on some business website. If I'd decided to vote SNP on the basis of their social policies, I'd now be changing my mind!

     

    Ah yes, the banker who runs a croft on Skye. I don't know a lot about him other than he had a bit of disagreement with the party in the past - when he was treasurer - over the party overdraft get too big. That and he is a big advocate of Scotland having its own financial regulator to avoid another financial crisis. There was a time when banking thought like this rather than casino gambling and Scotland's financial institutions respected for such prudence. 

     

    I think the main point is you don't quite get the SNP do you. You need to stop thinking of them as a party.

     

    They are a centre-social democratic movement. That's means there are some on the moderate right on board just as their are lefties. It's impossible to be a centre social democratic movement unless you are inclusive. If Scotland is to be independent, it can't exclude people because they happen to be more left, more right, more liberal, more socially conservative... That is where the more hard left and hard right fail; they exclude / won't listen to the views of others.

     

    I wonder for example if SW - our young one nation Tory - would have voted Yes if we more lefties had done nothing but attack him rather than engage?

     

    I personally have a great deal of confidence in the future of an independent Scotland for a very specific reason...

     

    If you go back right to universal suffrage, Scotland, on balance, pretty much always voted for the centre. It has hovered around there for over a century. Post war it was 50/50 One nation Tory (Scottish unionist) / Labour. When the Tories began to break the post war consenus, the Blue areas of Scotland began to turn yellow as people left them for the just right of centre Liberals and centre SNP. When when the Libs went Orange book, the same happened; movement back to centre in the form of the SNP. New Tory Labour killed Labour and again back to the centre SNP and left-liberal green.

     

    Extremes always end in tears, be they far economic left or far economic right. Normally this is because each type of politics is increasingly forced upon an electorate which contains a range of views. The only way to get e.g. full on communism to work is that everyone genuinely wanted to be a communist. 51% can't force socialism on 49%. If the 51% want the 49% to be receptive to more socialism, they need to persuade them of that in an inclusive manner.

     

    The SNP clearly state they are a left of centre social democratic party. That's what they are. They're not socialist, otherwise they'd state that, i.e. democratic socialist. Sure by UK main party standards they are approaching radical leftie, but they don't kid on they are something they are not.

     

    In an iScotland they'd shrink to become the Centre Party as seen in other social democracies. I'd likely still vote for them. If they ceased to exist, I might vote more left or more right depending on whether I thought Scotland was veering away too much in one direction and causing disquiet in the electorate as a result. If there was no centre party, I might even vote simultaneously for a moderate right and moderate left at the same time to maintain balance. Whatever I felt was best to maintain consensus politics.

     

    Anyway, you have the Greens to vote for, although I understand you are not so happy with their anti-EU stance? 

     

    I used to vote SNP-Margo (RIP) when was in the Lothians. Margo was pretty left and the mix was more my stance, i.e. modest left of centre favouring re-nationalisation of utilities and key public services. Patrick Harvie's Greens could well get my second vote, but needs must and for now, SNP-SNP.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold in winter and dry and very warm in summer
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.

    Been trying to catch up...

    To SS's post - I agree.

    There is no way I'd have voted YES if you'd have made this right vs left.

    This was a big stumbling block (still is to a lesser extent) and needed to be played down.

    As well as self-determination. Most don't believe (I know some in here do) that Scotland should be independent for the sake of it therefore you have to build up and economic case etc.

    I do believe the currency scenario did cast enough doubt into many people's minds to stop them voting YES.

    In relation to the Scots language - I think it would be far harder to make this a 'Scotland' thing, as noted above, more of a highland and Islands policy with the reintroduction of Gaelic.

    Also, I think this could end up more an affluent schools only policy. Many 'disadvantaged' schools have to focus far more on basic Maths and English rather than learning a new language (many can barely speak English, not being disparaging here it's just a fact).

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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    SS, I do get the SNP, and that's part of why I always stand back at the last minute. I see the SNP as an agglomeration of a lot of very different folk with one goal - independence - and as time goes on I'm rather coming to think that is likely to be the best way for Scotland (my ancestral and now adopted home) to become more equal.  Unfortunately I see some folk in the SNP - Blackford is one - that I feel so different to that I just won't be in the same pot. Maybe I'm too stubborn.

     

    I was at a meeting a while back where Harvie was one of several politicians and assorted 'experts' on the platform - this was a local issue, not related to the GE - and he stood out as the smartest chap there by a long way.  I can understand their anti-EU stand and have to live with that.

     

    Re your last sentence - how come you get 2 votes in this election?  Do tell...!

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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    I'll reply later after work....

    But

    1) introducing Scots would be taking away from another language (you can't teach French and Scots and English plus adequately dealing with Maths, English etc). So it is a case of 'usefulness' IMO.

    2) it is important culturally to an extent. I think teaching of our history and language (they should be linked) is important but to dedicate a few hours a week to it is detracting from other things. I'm not a huge fan of learning a language over other skills, Maths, English etc should all come first.

    3) To address Catch, 'Aye' is slang though. If Scots was taught then that's different but I do believe pupils Gould say 'yes' and 'no'. I doubt you'd argue 'nah' is acceptable....

     

    Re your last point... calling someone's use of a word or phrase 'slang' is to infer that it's of a low standard, it's a perjorative term.  Most people I know say 'aye' rather than 'yes', it's their language, no better or worse than - for example - my sister's version of northern England English, or SS's French wife's version of Scottish English.  Languages evolve and we betray our inner prejudices when we express preferences for other's usage; I dislike the way that various words have changed meaning since I started to use them 50 years ago, but I live with it.

     

    More important is the loss of parts of local, regional and national identities in many countries (France and Britain are two I know a little about) by increasing domination of standardised versions of the the national languages. 

     

    I've recently been hearing the Caithness tongue being spoken and inevitably when I asked how many speak like this, the answer came back, 'oh, just a few of the old uns now..' Shame really, putting it mildly, it's a lovely speech.

    Edited by Hairy Celt
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Re your last sentence - how come you get 2 votes in this election?  Do tell...!

     

    Not in this one, but in the more important Holyrood elections. 

     

    I like the AMS-PR system. Could be tweaked somewhat though to improve the PR element a bit more through counting method adjustments. Mix of local MP FPTP you can chuck out easily (which you can't do under party list PR easily) and PR with the regional list is good with me.

     

    I think you are a stubborn sod*. Not that I'm going to try and get you to vote SNP, nor indy. That's up to you. 

     

    Personally, on the flag front... I'm just Scottish as Mrs SS is French. That's all. There's no superiority, specialness or anything. I used to be British too (well at least never questioned it) until I had that punched and kicked out of me by the main British parties. Add in that it seems there's no obvious point to the archaic imperial, aristocratic, undemocratic UK union, and I'm sold on the folk of Scotland joining modern unions such as the EU, UN etc as they see fit.

     

    * :)

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold in winter and dry and very warm in summer
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.

    Re your last point... calling someone's use of a word or phrase 'slang' is to infer that it's of a low standard, it's a perjorative term. Most people I know say 'aye' rather than 'yes', it's their language, no better or worse than - for example - my sister's version of northern England English, or SS's French wife's version of Scottish English. Languages evolve and we betray our inner prejudices when we express preferences for other's usage; I dislike the way that various words have changed meaning since I started to use them 50 years ago, but I live with it.

    More important is the loss of parts of local, regional and national identities in many countries (France and Britain are two I know a little about) by increasing domination of standardised versions of the the national languages.

    I've recently been hearing the Caithness tongue being spoken and inevitably when I asked how many speak like this, the answer came back, 'oh, just a few of the old uns now..' Shame really, putting it mildly, it's a lovely speech.

    Outside of a classroom you can speak how you wish but in school (in reference to Catch's post) you should speak properly.

    I'm working in Annan at the moment and notice a few differences in accent. Much more 'ae' sound ie "I'm nae dae'n it", 'I have nae, naw".

    None of that is wrong per se and it is just a regional dialect but it isn't correct English. In that situation it's fine but in a formal occasion I would deem it wrong to talk like that.

    NB - it is different to 'having an accent'. I've spoken to people from way up North with that lovely lilt to their voice or Glaswegians and you can talk perfectly properly with an accent. There is a point where an accent becomes 'slang. 'Skill' being one such example (school), I hear it around here all the time, 'does my nut in' ;)

    Edited by SW Saltire
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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    Not in this one, but in the more important Holyrood elections. 

     

    I like the AMS-PR system. Could be tweaked somewhat though to improve the PR element a bit more through counting method adjustments. Mix of local MP FPTP you can chuck out easily (which you can't do under party list PR easily) and PR with the regional list is good with me.

     

    I think you are a stubborn sod. Not that I'm going to try and get you to vote SNP, nor indy. That's up to you. 

     

    Personally, on the flag front... I'm just Scottish as Mrs SS is French. That's all. I used to be British too (well at least never questioned it) until I had that punched and kicked out of me by the main British parties. Add in that it seems there's no obvious point to the archaic imperial, aristocratic, undemocratic UK union and I'm sold on the folk of Scotland joining modern unions such as the EU, UN etc as it sees fit.

     

    Even stubborn sods move house occasionally....  I think me and you are fairly close neighbours and share many ideals.  We just differ about the means to an end, and mine are coloured by my very mixed English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish background - I feel a strong affinity with 2nd gen Hindus in the West Midlands, for example - and I am still reluctant to pull away. 

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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    Outside of a classroom you can speak how you wish but in school (in reference to Catch's post) you should speak properly.

    I'm working in Annan at the moment and notice a few differences in accent. Much more 'ae' sound ie "I'm nae dae'n it", 'I have nae, naw".

    None of that is wrong per se and it is just a regional dialect but it isn't correct English. In that situation it's fine but in a formal occasion I would deem it wrong to talk like that.

    NB - it is different to 'having an accent'. I've spoken to people from way up North with that lovely lilt to their voice or Glaswegians and you can talk perfectly properly with an accent. There is a point where an accent becomes 'slang. 'Skill' being one such example (school), I hear it around here all the time, 'does my nut in' ;)

     

    Language is just a way of communicating, so the only way I see it as being incorrect is if it's not working, and even that's pushing it a bit.  The Annan folk aren't using language incorrectly, they're more likely to be modifying it for group identity.  Words, phrases, structures, they all shift and adapt all the time, and we should be happy that they do.  The world would be a boring place otherwise.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Outside of a classroom you can speak how you wish but in school (in reference to Catch's post) you should speak properly.

     

    At a school play for my Kid a year or so ago, I arrived early from work and was sitting waiting for Mrs SS to arrive from home.

     

    Behind me, an old man sat down with his middle aged son and daughter in law.

     

    Being alone waiting, I couldn't help but listen in.

     

    The old man spoke in wonderful, full on border Scots. If you knew only 'Queen's English' you'd have struggled to understand much of it. Not coarse, not slang, just a language that he grew up with spoken softly and eloquently.

     

    I was thinking 'wow'. Then he started talking about how this son of his friend was doing well after he'd moved away from the area and could 'speak properly'; the inference being he did not do that himself...

     

    How sad. I was deliberating whether I should join in a bit with the discussion then Mrs SS arrived and the show started.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Anyway, moving back onto the current campaign.

     

    Coming to a billboard near you (this one in London), unless you live in Scotland.

     

    Can anyone explain how this works? I thought Salmond wanted independence, i.e. not to rifle through the pockets of the neighbours as is the passion of the UK Tories?

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    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    Anyway, moving back onto the current campaign.

     

    Coming to a billboard near you (this one in London), unless you live in Scotland.

     

    Can anyone explain how this works? I thought Salmond wanted independence, i.e. not to rifle through the pockets of the neighbours as is the passion of the UK Tories?

     

    It works because it appeals to tories who are thinking about money (ie most of them) and how the nasty Scots might be using their influence to smuggle more cash away north of Hadrians Wall. There's no need for it to have any bearing on reality, it's like a fairy tale made up to scare the children.

     

    It also brings the bogeyman back into view; AS has been conspicuously inconspicuous recently, despite being a candidate and NS not.

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    Posted
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold in winter and dry and very warm in summer
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.

    Language is just a way of communicating, so the only way I see it as being incorrect is if it's not working, and even that's pushing it a bit.  The Annan folk aren't using language incorrectly, they're more likely to be modifying it for group identity.  Words, phrases, structures, they all shift and adapt all the time, and we should be happy that they do.  The world would be a boring place otherwise.

    In the context they were using it, nothing was wrong.

    However, in a formal situation I wouldn't expect that language to be used.

    2 points here really.

    Firstly, I think there is an overlap between accent and actual slang terminology. In SS's example above that is an accent. It is not 'slang' or incorrect grammar. Whereas, words like 'skill' is just slang. It may still be acceptable in the workplace or whatever but it wouldn't be acceptable in a job interview lets say or (referring back to Catch's post whitch started this discussion - SS's post was on reintroduction of Scots - ) not acceptable in a classroom environment.

    It's a case of not enunciating one's words properly. I'm a bit torn, on the one hand, there's nothing 'wrong' with it but on the other, my mum would describe it as 'common' and just poor English skills. Nothing to do with a lilt in your voice, that we all will have in different ways.

    Also, - I can't remember if have made more than one point already... It's getting late-

    (Secondly) an accent can merge into poor grammar, such as the use of 'them' when people mean 'those'. Not so common north of the border but my next door neighbour does get similar verbs and their tenses mixed who is training to be a primary teacher. Surely she has a duty to speak properly to the kids? Thus, in this scenario her speech is incorrect and an attempt must be made to 'improve' it for the duration of teaching.

    I'm sure we can all (well, most) speak 'properly' when we want/need and have a broader accent when at home casually or when surrounded by others of a strong dialect.

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