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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I took part in this, being a sky customer.

     

    Caveat is that while it was demographically weighted, it was still a survey of Sky customers, which Sky makes clear. Look and feel of the Survey suggested maybe Yougov or Survation designed.

     

    http://news.sky.com/story/1470538/majority-of-scots-think-union-will-split-poll

     

    Majority Of Scots Think Union Will Split, Poll
     
    ...The Sky Data survey indicated more than 40% of Scots believe the campaign makes the prospect of independence more likely.
     
    A majority of Scots (55%) now think that independence is likely in their lifetimes, while half of voters across the UK now think it is likely in their lifetime...
     
    ...Ms Sturgeon was thought to be the most capable leader by far (51%). Perhaps surprisingly in Scotland, Mr Cameron (22%) polled ahead of Ed Miliband (11%) with Nick Clegg (1%) way behind.
     
    When asked who they thought would be willing to make tough decisions, Sky Data found a similar pattern - Ms Sturgeon is ahead (40%), Mr Cameron (26%) is doing better than Mr Miliband (13%), with Mr Clegg on 2%.
     
    The survey also suggested the SNP leader has been sharply boosted by the campaign.
     
    She is the only leader across Scotland and the UK whose leadership and values are perceived more positively over the campaign so far.

     

    Edited by scottish skier
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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold in winter and dry and very warm in summer
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.

    I didn't see your edit NL...

    I'm not sure how 'what you put in is what you get out' correlates with very high taxes and for wealth to re-distributed. We are all treated with equality on socialism (with a belief we will always do what is morally right), since some put more effort in that others, some carry out more difficult jobs than others, i would argue socialism in this regard does create a society which rewards work ethic.

    Marx's theory on alienation in the workplace. The idea we are enslaved by the Bourgeois class to fight against one another, to be alienated from the actual product, alienated from ourselves etc places far too much faith in our basic nature.

    It does correctly highlight the problem with unbridled capitalism ie the need for a minimum wage but if what he says were true we'd live in a socialist country by now. We'd happily co-operate and all earn the same pay since it's purely down to those rich employers who are creating the need for competition, Marx would argue

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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland

    Some chatter from local Lib Dems in Inverness and third hand from Danny Alexander's street in Aviemore seem to be suggesting the same thing! He's in big trouble which we kinda knew anyway, but it's pretty complicated, frankly it sounds like Danny Alexander could finish anywhere from 1st to 4th! While some people have trying to mobilise anti-SNP tactical voting, anti Lib Dem voting seems to be having more traction around here. Personal vote factor is there, but so equally is the topple a senior UK government minister for a Portillo moment factor!

     

    Charles Kennedy is missing in action - not really heard sight or sound of him, not seen much evidence even of Lib Dem signs in his seat, while lots of SNP and Pro Indy stuff has appeared. I think the Highland Lib Dems were hoping Charles Kennedy was still a shoe-in and are targeting very limited resources at Danny Alexander. 

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Lord Ming on SKY there pushing for tactical voting to stop the SNP.

    Here's hoping there is.

     

    My constituency is a classic headache for anyone who's main aim was to tactically vote against the SNP.

     

    3 way marginal. Indy/devo max/more left supporters know exactly who to vote for - SNP.

     

    However, if you were set on anti-SNP, then who? Moore or Lamont? Moore was pretty popular until the coalition, but seemed more reluctant about it and good booted out of the position of SoS for that. So, maybe he's still popular so vote for him as best anti-SNP?

     

    But then polls suggest the Libs are in trouble and what if the anti-SNP vote, if it exists in any form, goes Con?

     

    Both Moore and Lamont are getting stuff put through letterboxes showing polling data of different sorts saying that only they can beat the SNP.

     

    Decisions, decisions. You could end up voting tactically for the wrong one and helping the SNP!

     

    This is exactly the reason why I've never voted tactically this way, i.e. against the party / candidate I disliked most for someone I don't really support but dislike less. You pee into the wind doing that and it can come back and bite you on the behind.

     

    This is why 2010 weighting is so problematic in Scotland. It's not false recall that creates far to many 2010 Lib and Lab / not enough SNP. It's (tactical) regret.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie

    Talking to the voters, Murphy's way....

     

    Jim Murphy held a street rally in Edinburgh today. Given many of the election events from the main parties have been behind closed doors, the Scottish Labour leader deserves credit for pitching up right outside the Scottish National Gallery and standing for about an hour in a space where real genuine members of the public were walking. He was, of course, protected by a rubber ring of activists wearing T-shirts with key Scottish Labour pledges on it.

     

    And given the rally was secret and only advertised to the media before it happened, there wasn’t much of an opportunity for real genuine members of the public to plan to pop by and ask questions.

     

    One voter, a friendly sort, came up to me towards the end. ‘Excuse me,’ he asked. ‘Are they talking to people like me or are they in an antiseptic bubble?’ He was annoyed that he had tried to walk towards Murphy for a chat, but had been politely blocked from doing so by a Labourite who had subtly slid in between the man, called Jim, and the other Jim.

     

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/04/jim-murphy-rallies-labour-activists-in-edinburgh/

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I think this is a very good idea.

     

    My Scots is fairly extensive although I feel I've missed out on using it in more formal environments. I have however noticed it used increasingly between Scots at senior engineering levels when I've been up in Aberdeen with work (oil and gas). In the past, it was more confined to the roughnecks...

     

    Certainly, it hasn't impacted my English using both to varying levels; I found English fairly easy to learn at School (I even got an A at higher  :)) and its a pity there was nothing more formal in terms of Scots (and Gaelic) on offer. I think we just had a couple of Burns poems and that was it!

     

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/education/schools-told-to-increase-use-of-scots-language-in-lessons.124041229

     

    Schools told to increase use of Scots language in lessons
     
    SCHOOLS have been urged to increase the use of the Scots language as part of a wider drive to improve literacy.

     

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    For those Scots who feel England pushes it around i'm just curious as to what the historical population split has been since union at say 50 year intervals. I know it's about 10 to 1 at the moment and increasing due to a higher proportion of English immigration.


    I think this is a very good idea.

     

    My Scots is fairly extensive although I feel I've missed out on using it in more formal environments. I have however noticed it used increasingly between Scots at senior engineering levels when I've been up in Aberdeen with work (oil and gas). In the past, it was more confined to the roughnecks...

     

    Certainly, it hasn't impacted my English using both to varying levels; I found English fairly easy to learn at School (I even got an A at higher  :)) and its a pity there was nothing more formal in terms of Scots (and Gaelic) on offer. I think we just had a couple of Burns poems and that was it!

     

    This is a horrid policy and very similar to Wales. While i'm open to independence i certainly don't think stirring nationalism is a good thing. 

     

    If another language is needed to aid teaching then teach a useful one like Mandarin, French or German.

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    Posted
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold in winter and dry and very warm in summer
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.

    This is a horrid policy and very similar to Wales. While i'm open to independence i certainly don't think stirring nationalism is a good thing.

    If another language is needed to aid teaching then teach a useful one like Mandarin, French or German.

    I wouldn't go as far as 'horrid' but I do wonder how advantageous this will be?

    Surely learning Mandarin or French, German is far more beneficial than learning a language confined to a small part of the globe.

    Having read the article, it would seem one biased publisher who would benefit enormously from an increase in Scots speaking is in favour of more Scots speaking... Funny that.

    A bunch of nonsensical rambling would sum up some of the eloquent drivel that is being spouted in that article.

    Edited by SW Saltire
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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    For those Scots who feel England pushes it around i'm just curious as to what the historical population split has been since union at say 50 year intervals. I know it's about 10 to 1 at the moment and increasing due to a higher proportion of English immigration.

     

    This is a horrid policy and very similar to Wales. While i'm open to independence i certainly don't think stirring nationalism is a good thing. 

     

    If another language is needed to aid teaching then teach a useful one like Mandarin, French or German.

     

    I don't have time to look up exact figures (have you not got Google? :) ) but it was around 5 to 1 in 1800 I think.

     

    Historically schools in Scotland have worked hard to eradicate the Scots language, so I'm not sure what the issue is with some rebalancing? It was slightly different for me as I was sent to an independent (i.e. private) school, but we were not permitted to even say "Aye" at school. Doing so resulted in a punishment exercise. I know that independent schools still forbid their pupils to even say "Aye", let alone use any other Scots language. Also, we were taught history but it was English history. Scotland only became apparent from union onwards. Again though, this was in an independent school so it would probs not have been like that in a state school.

     

    When I look back I'm surprised I ever made it to be a supporter of independence. My parents are massively pro-Union and my schooling was massively pro-Union. It took a lot of unpicking of my programming to get to the point I'm at today.

    Edited by CatchMyDrift
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    This is a horrid policy and very similar to Wales. While i'm open to independence i certainly don't think stirring nationalism is a good thing. 

     

    So you are against the teaching of English in Schools in England?

     

    What a ridiculous notion, i.e. that the Danes learning Danish at school is somehow wrong.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie

    Population graph....

     

     

    As for the Scots language, most people in Scotland use it every day, we just don't always know we are doing it. As such I think there's no harm in schools spending some time on covering the language, but I don't think it needs to be taught as a separate language.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I wouldn't go as far as 'horrid' but I do wonder how advantageous this will be?

    Surely learning Mandarin or French, German is far more beneficial than learning a language confined to a small part of the globe.

    Having read the article, it would seem one biased publisher who would benefit enormously from an increase in Scots speaking is in favour of more Scots speaking... Funny that.

    A bunch of nonsensical rambling would sum up some of the eloquent drivel that is being spouted in that article.

     

    But why are we learning English as a first language anyway?*

     

    Other countries don't do that.

     

    </devil's advocate>

     

    I never thought of English as my fist language. Why would I, it's called English.

     

    Hell, even the version of English I learned at School (which is useful to have) is a Scottish version and not the same as that taught in England.

     

    I understand a lot of Scots, but would have liked to learn more. Its also a language I use a lot; as much as I can based on what I know at home and with friends for example.

     

    Kids can learn multiple languages easily. My 7 year old daughter is learning Scots# and French as her native languages and doing Scottish Standard English at School too. No problem; she's absorbing them all.

     

    ---

     

    *Because we are where we are.

     

    #You can now buy quite a lot of kids books written in Scots and they are great fun.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
  • Weather Preferences: Freezing fog, frost, snow, sunshine.
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl

    I wouldn't go as far as 'horrid' but I do wonder how advantageous this will be?

    Surely learning Mandarin or French, German is far more beneficial than learning a language confined to a small part of the globe.

    Having read the article, it would seem one biased publisher who would benefit enormously from an increase in Scots speaking is in favour of more Scots speaking... Funny that.

    A bunch of nonsensical rambling would sum up some of the eloquent drivel that is being spouted in that article.

     

    It all comes down to what we deem to be 'useful', there are a large number of factors to consider in this debate. Now, on a purely statistical calculation, it would seem that Mandarin would be the best choice of language to teach as an additional language; there are hundreds of millions of native speakers, most of whom speak very poor or no English. China is an emerging giant which will likely dominate global economics in the next century, so it seems intuitively rational to promote the learning of the language. The difficulty with this is that China is extremely low down in the list of Scotland's largest trading partners, especially when one considers its colossal population and economic stretch. Other EU states and America trade far more with Scotland than the Chinese do, so languages such as Polish, French, German, Italian (especially Italian with regards to Europe, they are TERRIBLE at English) and Spanish (given America's large Spanish population) etc would actually make much more sense on purely economic grounds given that China will never be particularly high in Scotland's list of top trading partners due to a lack of geographic proximity. 

     

    Now, setting the economic reasons aside (or rather keeping them in mind while not being guided solely by broad stroke economic thinking), we have a number of other factors to consider. Firstly, the world is a place of variety and diversity, something to be celebrated. It would quickly become extremely dull if we were left with but one language, something that even if we managed to achieve would quickly result in a series of 'localised globalisations', i.e. the emergence of new dialects with varying degrees of mutual intelligibility globally. So while there is a case for a global second language, we happen to be lucky enough to speak it fluently already to the extent that our entire discourse is confined within its parameters. Further to my point on variation, there is arguably a responsibility for each state / culture / peoples / group to safeguard their respective native tongues on behalf of humanity as a whole. David Mitchell, while giving his thoughts on the Gaelic language, stated that 'language is primarily a means of communication'. He's absolutely right, but what he failed to consider is that language is not merely a means of conversation between two individuals. Language also supports, fosters and communicates human culture and gives the texture to the world we live in, in a state such as Scotland where its fascinating Celtic past is one of its biggest exports (whisky being a prime but not an exclusive example) not to mention one of its largest and fast growing domestic industries (that is, tourism), there is a logical case for support a sense of place within the country. As shown by my short story given a few pages back on the history and usage of "children of the stone" / "clann na cloiche" in Inverness, knowledge of language can open up very interesting avenues culturally and offers a unique insight into the fabric of societies. 

     

    Finally, the difficult in arbitrarily selected a second foreign language as part of our education planning is relatively clear - Scots and Gaelic both already have a firm foothold in Scotland and by learning these alongside English, not only do children improve their language acquisition and greatly increase their abilities in learning a third and fourth language, but bilingual children also perform better in maths and the sciences. 

     

    All in all, I'd argue that the case for both Gaelic and Scots is fairly strong and it's nothing to do with nationalism (something often misunderstood by people) - interestingly, it was actually the Conservatives that got the ball rolling for Gaelic when the first Gaelic language unit opened in Inverness in the 1980s. It has cross party support, many Gaels are in fact unionists and just because certain phrases are hijacked by the more extreme fringes of the Yes movement in Scotland (such as Saor Alba or Alba An Aigh), many of these phrases (especially the latter in the previous example) can be used by anyone of any political persuasion. 

    Edited by NorthernRab
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I wouldn't go as far as 'horrid' but I do wonder how advantageous this will be?

    Surely learning Mandarin or French, German is far more beneficial than learning a language confined to a small part of the globe.

    Having read the article, it would seem one biased publisher who would benefit enormously from an increase in Scots speaking is in favour of more Scots speaking... Funny that.

    A bunch of nonsensical rambling would sum up some of the eloquent drivel that is being spouted in that article.

     

    Mandarin is utterly useless for most people. German and French only of very limited use for the vast majority. Good for Holidays, but unless you are dealing directly with Germans and French for work on a regular basis, of little use. 

     

    For me, Arabic would probably be the most useful.

     

    Most people don't do international business where another language can come in handy. Learning a language therefore is in many ways just extra and more of cultural benefit. So, learning Gaelic is as useful as learning French really. If you have moved to the Western Isles, Gaelic is probably more important.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near King's Lynn 13.68m ASL
  • Weather Preferences: Hoar Frost, Snow, Misty Autumn mornings
  • Location: Near King's Lynn 13.68m ASL

    For those Scots who feel England pushes it around i'm just curious as to what the historical population split has been since union at say 50 year intervals. I know it's about 10 to 1 at the moment and increasing due to a higher proportion of English immigration.

     

    This is a horrid policy and very similar to Wales. While i'm open to independence i certainly don't think stirring nationalism is a good thing. 

     

    If another language is needed to aid teaching then teach a useful one like Mandarin, French or German.

     

     

    How prosaic and dull education would be if we only learned "useful" things. 

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    Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    So you are against the teaching of English in Schools in England?

     

    What a ridiculous notion, i.e. that the Danes learning Danish at school is somehow wrong.

    Scotland is in union with England who have the most spoken language in the world, spoken as a first language by the largest economy in the world. Heck, this is one thing which you should be thankful for.

    I have no objection with people voting with their pockets to learn any language in a community center ECT.. But this is simply taking resources which could be used to teach Spanish (spoken by a few hundred million) or the like in order to stir up nationalism. The Welsh do it too.

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    Posted
  • Location: Back in Edmonton Alberta(via Chelmsford, Exeter & Calgary)
  • Location: Back in Edmonton Alberta(via Chelmsford, Exeter & Calgary)

    Mandarin is utterly useless for most people. German and French only of very limited use for the vast majority. Good for Holidays, but unless you are dealing directly with Germans and French for work on a regular basis, of little use. 

     

    For me, Arabic would probably be the most useful.

     

    Most people don't do international business where another language can come in handy. Learning a language therefore is in many ways just extra and more of cultural benefit. So, learning Gaelic is as useful as learning French really. If you have moved to the Western Isles, Gaelic is probably more important.

    Actually mandarin is becoming ever more important in the business world as china becomes ever more powerful economically I would be surprised if it is not taught in schools is some form another in the next few decades and usurps French.

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    Posted
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
  • Weather Preferences: Freezing fog, frost, snow, sunshine.
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl

    Scotland is in union with England who have the most spoken language in the world, spoken as a first language by the largest economy in the world. Heck, this is one thing which you should be thankful for.

    I have no objection with people voting with their pockets to learn any language in a community center ECT.. But this is simply taking resources which could be used to teach Spanish (spoken by a few hundred million) or the like in order to stir up nationalism. The Welsh do it too.

    I speak English and Gaelic, that hasn't stopped me learning French and Italian - I'm going to China for six weeks at the beginning of July and currently learning some Mandarin - I can already write a lot of characters and hold a very basic conversation.

    Speaking Gaelic is not contingent on rejecting English and other languages, quite the opposite.

    Edited by NorthernRab
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    Posted
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
  • Weather Preferences: Freezing fog, frost, snow, sunshine.
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl

    Actually mandarin is becoming ever more important in the business world as china becomes ever more powerful economically I would be surprised if it is not taught in schools is some form another in the next few decades and usurps French.

    See my post above.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near King's Lynn 13.68m ASL
  • Weather Preferences: Hoar Frost, Snow, Misty Autumn mornings
  • Location: Near King's Lynn 13.68m ASL

    Scotland is in union with England who have the most spoken language in the world, spoken as a first language by the largest economy in the world. Heck, this is one thing which you should be thankful for.

    I have no objection with people voting with their pockets to learn any language in a community center ECT.. But this is simply taking resources which could be used to teach Spanish (spoken by a few hundred million) or the like in order to stir up nationalism. The Welsh do it too.

     

    Perhaps you should tell the Catalans they shouldn't learn Catalan, the Basques shouldn't learn Basque, the Welsh shouldn't learn Welsh, and the Irish shouldn't learn Irish because they aren't useful globally? Heck, why doesn't everybody just speak English? How many Welsh people do you know who are angry they were taught Welsh?

    It's not about the utility of a language: it's about preserving cultural and historic heritage. The English attempted to eradicate the Irish language. The most ancient Western European literature is written in Irish Gaelic.

    Edited by Yarmy
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    Posted
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    Perhaps you should tell the Catalans they shouldn't learn Catalan, the Basques shouldn't learn Basque, the Welsh shouldn't learn Welsh, and the Irish shouldn't learn Irish because they aren't useful globally? Heck, why doesn't everybody just speak English? How many Welsh people do you know who are angry they were taught Welsh?

    It's not about the utility of a language: it's about preserving cultural and historic heritage. The English attempted to eradicate the Irish language. The most ancient Western European literature is written in Irish Gaelic.

    I'd be happy to. When your primary language is a global language it seems batty to indoctrinate the children.

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    Posted
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold in winter and dry and very warm in summer
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.

    I'll reply later after work....

    But

    1) introducing Scots would be taking away from another language (you can't teach French and Scots and English plus adequately dealing with Maths, English etc). So it is a case of 'usefulness' IMO.

    2) it is important culturally to an extent. I think teaching of our history and language (they should be linked) is important but to dedicate a few hours a week to it is detracting from other things. I'm not a huge fan of learning a language over other skills, Maths, English etc should all come first.

    3) To address Catch, 'Aye' is slang though. If Scots was taught then that's different but I do believe pupils Gould say 'yes' and 'no'. I doubt you'd argue 'nah' is acceptable....

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  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
  • Weather Preferences: Freezing fog, frost, snow, sunshine.
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl

    I'd be happy to. When your primary language is a global language it seems batty to indoctrinate the children.

    Eh, how exactly is learning a language indoctrination? What an empty, vacuous statement.

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  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet
  • Location: Leeds/Bradford border, 185 metres above sea level, around 600 feet

    To tackle it from another angle.. Why is teaching these small languages the job of the state rather than yourself or somebody you pay.

    Why not take a Saturday afternoon to teach people yourself.

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