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Scottish Politics 2011-2017


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Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Sat ratings:

     

    Sturgeon

    68% Well

    26% Badly

    +42% NET

     

    McMurphy

    32% Well

    54% Badly

    -22% NET

     

    Cameron

    33% Well

    62% Badly

    -29% NET

     

    Miliband

    31% Well

    62% Badly

    -33% NET

     

    Clegg

    21% Well

    72% Badly

    -49% NET

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Ancrum
  • Weather Preferences: HOT SUNSHINE!
  • Location: Ancrum

    Isn't it an education watching suave sophisticated know-it-alls suddenly turning into playground bullies desperate to keep their wee gangs together... or maybe I should say showing their true colours? Karma might sometimes take a while coming but my god it's all the better for the wait!

    Re the discussion on the monarchy I think all she's good for is for tourists to gawp at and we don't need that because we have scenery instead :diablo:

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    As I've said before, I'm sort of middle of the road on the monarchy.

     

    I don't like the idea of a president (too much power in one person's hands), but at the same time don't want a monarchy anywhere near government. I also detest all the hangers on, perpetuation of the class system / aristocracy that the UK system creates; HoL being part of that.

     

    I'm happy enough with e.g. the Scandinavian systems where they still have a small royal family which are kept for tradition, tourists etc, but that's largely it. Also, no Presidential system, just a PR parliament with PM.

     

    Lizzie retains a degree of respect I think in Scotland, but then she comes from an age when the monarchy was a big thing in Scotland. However, I can't e.g. see the Earl of Strathearn being looked upon favourably as King of Scots. Far too posh home counties couple for that.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
    Right, so near half the Scots electorate (even more if you take sat ratings into account) are more toxic than, to quote Dave's own words, a bunch of 'fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists'?

     
    Cameron: Ukip voters can stop 'toxic’ SNP
     
    In an appeal to Telegraph readers, the Prime Minister tells Tory supporters they 'have the power' to stop the 'calamitous outcome' of a Labour government propped up by SNP
     
    David Cameron has told people considering backing Ukip that they "have the power" to stop a "toxic tie-up" between Ed Miliband and the SNP by voting Tory.

     

     

    Feel the family of nations lurve.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold. Enjoy all extremes though.
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.

    Is he loosing his marbles?   What a display of utter contempt, not just for the SNP but for the Scots!   Elections come and go but too much has been said in the run up to this one I'm afraid.   Oh we get it and then some.   Talk about self destruction!

    It's absolutely side splitting that a wee lassie from Scotland could actually be the one to knock him off his bloody pedestal!

    Edited by Blitzen
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Is he loosing his marbles?   What a display of utter contempt, not just for the SNP but for the Scots!   Elections come and go but too much has been said in the run up to this one I'm afraid.   Oh we get it and then some.   Talk about self destruction!

    It's absolutely side splitting that a wee lassie from Scotland could actually be the one to knock him off his bloody pedestal!

     

    Aye.

     

    I wonder if all this shenanigans won't harm the Scottish Tories. Even some senior Cons are warning about this.

     

    SW's thoughts would be of interest.

     

    SW, given you lie between SNP and Con, i.e. you are of more modest 'one nation' Tory leanings but not unfavourable to the modest left of centre SNP, does Dave's increasingly shrill rhetoric / appeal to kippers / ranking of them as 'less toxic' than Scots swing you at all?

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    Posted
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold in winter and dry and very warm in summer
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.

    Aye.

    I wonder if all this shenanigans won't harm the Scottish Tories. Even some senior Cons are warning about this.

    SW's thoughts would be of interest.

    SW, given you lie between SNP and

    Con, i.e. you are of more modest 'one nation' Tory leanings but not unfavourable to the modest left of centre SNP, does Dave's increasingly shrill rhetoric / appeal to kippers / ranking of them as 'less toxic' than Scots swing you at all?

    I see it as an election ploy first and foremost. Just rhetoric to get them elected, same as 'Only Labour can stop the Tories'.

    It's dangerous territory though, he's almost taking this too far.

    I think it's fine to say 'Don't let Labour be pulled to the 'left' by the SNP' but he isn't quite arguing that (or it's not coming across like that).

    He is in effect saying since the SNP are nationalists they shouldn't be allowed to have any influence in government down in Westminister.

    He could however get away with (the fact) or stating the SNP would hold a minority Lab government to a better deal for Scotland. Obviously, we'd be happy with that but I also think that isn't too divisive... He seems to be really going all out on this message as an election ploy. It might win him the election.

    What's he really got to lose in Scotland? 1MP?

    Secondly, he would think if he does get in government and by some miracle does deliver 'the good life' his share of the vote here may be closer to '1 in 5' and hold firm or even slightly improve.

    So to conclude, his argument would be passable I he focussed on simply:

    The 'left' influence

    The independence/devolution side

    Not going as far to say nationalists should get an influence. I agree, he's starting to get into hot water if he doesn't ease off but then again he might win a greater % of the vote. Which is what every party is trying to do, much like how the SNP try and appeal to everyone.

    Personally, (your last paragraph was aimed at me specifically) it is starting to annoy me. He is playing it wrongly but I can understand where he is coming from.

    I'm not sure why he had a big chance of tone (which was good) and has since let that slide. I reckon he'll push 'the good life' argument more in the coming days... Boris Johnson will be brought out no doubt.

    If my constituency did not have a big Tory vote then i'd be far more likely to vote SNP.

    Also, if I don't vote Tory then the Conservative party would think they have evens less support North of the border and therefore can be even less bothered at trying to appeal to voters here.

    I also like Ruth Davidson and think she's a more moderate voice of the party.

    Although, this bowing down to the real 'right' of the party is incredibly bad.

    Europe and Devolution are two issues which are being skewed by the right of the party. I don't think DC is too far away from my own political views but as Prime minister he's been pushed to the right. IDS' welfare reforms etc etc.

    The other side to this is, I'd like the SNP to distance themselves from the Greens before is vote for them. Doesn't have to be the same scale as the Tories but to just be less supportive.

    Secondly, I note Sturgeon went back on the 3p Corporation tax cut so I'm waiting to see how she positions the party in the coming months/years, hopefully it won't move to the 'left' too much. This issue will be linked to my other criticism above.

    FFA would be good in this regard as we'd really see if the 'books could be balanced'.

    Edited by SW Saltire
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    Thanks SW. Good points and how I was thinking to varying extents.

     

    Yes, he seems to be pushing the issue into much more extreme territory rhetoric-wise. Isn't making him look much of a statesman, and certainly not a pro-union 'family of nations' one.

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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie

    Yes, he seems to be pushing the issue into much more extreme territory rhetoric-wise. Isn't making him look much of a statesman, and certainly not a pro-union 'family of nations' one.

     

    As I said yesterday, probably on the UK thread, I think Cameron has run a poor campaign so far. From the obviously Scottish, and SNP biased, perspective that I have I don't think his current anti-SNP rhetoric is doing him any favours. How well it'll go down with it's intended target audience though may be different.

     

    I wonder if Ruth and the Scottish Conservatives could take the opportunity after the election to distance themselves from the UK party more, become their own party, no longer a 'branch office'? If they did this, and redefined themselves slightly, what with the turmoil Labour and LibDems are likely to go through could they get the jump on those two and get into the position of being the main challengers to the SNP?

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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL

    I can totally understand Cameron's approach. He is not going to win a majority by winning Scotland, therefore he doesn't care how much the Scottish Torys suffer. 

     

    It's all about England for Dave. He see that 12-16% of Skippers as his, and he wants it. He will say whatever it takes to get it.

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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    I can totally understand Cameron's approach. He is not going to win a majority by winning Scotland, therefore he doesn't care how much the Scottish Torys suffer. 

     

    It's all about England for Dave. He see that 12-16% of Skippers as his, and he wants it. He will say whatever it takes to get it.

     

    I think you're spot on. I just wish the electorate would see him for the unprincipled tit that he is.

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    Posted
  • Location: Bedfordshire/Herts border 40m asl
  • Weather Preferences: Cold, crisp, calm and sunny
  • Location: Bedfordshire/Herts border 40m asl

    While eating my lunch at work I tried to get on the BBC news website.  The home page appears to have crashed.  Possibly because Mr Farage wants them "to stop making Doctor Who, Strictly Come Dancing, and Top Gear"  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-wants-the-bbc-to-stop-making-doctor-who-strictly-come-dancing-and-top-gear-10193051.html#  and perhaps everyone rushing to see what the BBC will say about that caused it to crash....??

     

    Therefore looked on the ITV news site and found this:  http://www.itv.com/news/  This is a new low for an already negative and panic invoking campaign. Is he on some sort of death wish?  Hopefully this news item will go viral with thousands of complaints and he'll have to, as an absolute minimum, issue a grovelling public apology. 

     

    1. 15 minutes ago
    Cameron compares Alex Salmond to a pick pocket

    David Cameron has been caught referring to Alex Salmond as a pickpocket.

    The Prime Minister had just finished an interview on This Morning and Phillip Schofield was introducing the next item on the programme when Mr Cameron can be heard making the comment off-camera.

    Schofield was introducing crime expert James Freedman and said: "Up next a man who can pinch your wallet, your watch and even your tie without you ever noticing."

    To which Mr Cameron can be clearly heard saying: "Who's that Alex Salmond?"

     
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    Posted
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold. Enjoy all extremes though.
  • Location: Lochgelly - Highest town in Fife at 150m ASL.

    He's definitely got a thing about Alex Salmond and theft.   He accused him of pinching his socks last week!   Fine, if he only has a pair of nicked socks to worry about on the 8th.   Guess everyone will know what to get him for Christmas!   Personally, I think he should be more worried about a pair of tartan stilettos! :rolleyes:

    Edited by Blitzen
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    'Dangerous woman' that Sturgeon. Maybe because she's right?

     

    http://theconversation.com/fact-check-has-austerity-held-back-economic-growth-40578

     

    Fact Check: has austerity held back economic growth
     
    "In the last five years, austerity has undermined our public services, lowered the living standards of working people, pushed more children into poverty and held back economic growth."
     
    Nicola Sturgeon, Scottish first minister and Scottish National Party leader at the party’s manifesto launch...
     
    ...Verdict
    Nicola Sturgeon’s statement on the economic impact of austerity on the UK is correct, with no qualifications.
     

     

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Highland Scotland
  • Location: Highland Scotland
    Yeah, that is true. Out of interest, did Paganism accept homosexuality?

    Anyway, the Christian tradition which does dominate British culture doesn't condone marriage of same sex couples.

    The available evidence is that Celtic Paganism was accepting of homosexuality and intimate male/male relationships were accepted as perfectly normal. So arguably the culture of Christian homophobia is one imported from outside. That tradition probably came about for the same reasons as the Catholic Church's stance on contraception, the motivating factor being to encourage behaviour and beliefs that leads to as many new Catholics being bread as possible, hence increasing the power of the Church. Thou shall not be gay was not one of the ten commandments! 

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    I could go on but I reckon the 'I don't understand how anyone could vote Tory' is really 'I don't agree with the views of the Tories' not the former. As Catch notes, therefore, I'm waisting my breath or rather my phone's battery

     

    I've been giving this quite a bit of thought SWS, and my reasons for being unable to understand how anyone could vote Tory are not based fully on not agreeing with their policies. Some of my reasons are complete nonsense, and some are very solid. I was born in 1978, I only knew a Tory government until 1997 when I was 19 years old. I'd probs be best PMing you at some point about it all, I'm not sure everyone wants to hear me ramble on about why little Catch ended up not liking the Tories. None of it is down to anything personal against me, my family were well off and I had a privileged life as a kid, so it's different (and probs stranger!) than any "Boo hiss Maggie was a pure cow to my Dad" story.

    Edited by CatchMyDrift
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    Posted
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold in winter and dry and very warm in summer
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.

    The available evidence is that Celtic Paganism was accepting of homosexuality and intimate male/male relationships were accepted as perfectly normal. So arguably the culture of Christian homophobia is one imported from outside. That tradition probably came about for the same reasons as the Catholic Church's stance on contraception, the motivating factor being to encourage behaviour and beliefs that leads to as many new Catholics being bread as possible, hence increasing the power of the Church. Thou shall not be gay was not one of the ten commandments!

    Interesting reply. Fair enough.

    Pro-creation is a pretty big argument in favour of why the church would push heterosexuality so vehermently.

    Anyway, the bill has been passed. It certainly would not change my opinion of someone if they told me they were gay, although I must concede if I am fortunate enough to have a child in the future (currently I'd hate that prospect but maybe someday) I'm not sure how I'd react to them coming out.

    I'd be as diplomatic as I possibly could and to their face supportive but deep down I can say for 100% I'd be happy.

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    Posted
  • Location: NH7256
  • Weather Preferences: where's my vote?
  • Location: NH7256

    I've been giving this quite a bit of thought SWS, and my reasons for being unable to understand how anyone could vote Tory are not based fully on not agreeing with their policies. Some of my reasons are complete nonsense, and some are very solid. I was born in 1978, I only knew a Tory government until 1997 when I was 19 years old. I'd probs be best PMing you at some point about it all, I'm not sure everyone wants to hear me ramble on about why little Catch ended up not liking the Tories. None of it is down to anything personal against me, my family were well off and I had a privileged life as a kid, so it's different (and probs stranger!) than any "Boo hiss Maggie was a pure cow to my Dad" story.

     

    I bet it would be more interesting than much of the 541ton the ahem 'adjacent' thread...

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I've been giving this quite a bit of thought SWS, and my reasons for being unable to understand how anyone could vote Tory are not based fully on not agreeing with their policies. Some of my reasons are complete nonsense, and some are very solid. I was born in 1978, I only knew a Tory government until 1997 when I was 19 years old. 

     

    Snap. 1976.

     

    Thatcher's children - us - have historically been one of the biggest and consistent supporters of Scottish independence.

     

    I'm pleased to say that generation devo are topping that though!

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold in winter and dry and very warm in summer
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.

    I've been giving this quite a bit of thought SWS, and my reasons for being unable to understand how anyone could vote Tory are not based fully on not agreeing with their policies. Some of my reasons are complete nonsense, and some are very solid. I was born in 1978, I only knew a Tory government until 1997 when I was 19 years old. I'd probs be best PMing you at some point about it all, I'm not sure everyone wants to hear me ramble on about why little Catch ended up not liking the Tories. None of it is down to anything personal against me, my family were well off and I had a privileged life as a kid, so it's different (and probs stranger!) than any "Boo hiss Maggie was a pure cow to my Dad" story.

    Well growing up through unbridled neo-liberalism is hardly a great thing.

    I can see how she got voted in when you think of the one leading up to her election. However, she's done more damage to small c Conservatism than anyone else in recent times.

    I fundamentally believe what you put in should be what you get out. The state's job is to limit the external factors which may inhibit an individual to do so.

    It boils down to our human nature. I gave a lengthy reply to NL on this subject when (I'd argue) he prematurely jumped upon what he thought I was implying.

    I'd never subscribe to the belief that 'there is no such thing as society'. Again, this belief has damaged the 'centre-right' ever since. However, I don't believe we work together well and in each other's best interests. Competition exists and extra stimulation is yearned for, thus pushing us towards a more individualist nature.

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    Posted
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl
  • Weather Preferences: Freezing fog, frost, snow, sunshine.
  • Location: Inbhir Nis / Inverness - 636 ft asl

    I'd never subscribe to the belief that 'there is no such thing as society'. Again, this belief has damaged the 'centre-right' ever since. However, I don't believe we work together well and in each other's best interests. Competition exists and extra stimulation is yearned for, thus pushing us towards a more individualist nature.

     

    Do you think that there's necessarily an objective "human nature"? It's a massive topic of course, but while I've always "looked after myself", I find it almost impossible to do so when it's to the detriment of others. I certainly could never sit on millions of pounds, it would drive me mad.

     

    Can I just add also that "what you put in should be what you get out" is one of the fundamental principles of socialist thought; capitalism isn't based on that idea, hence how we have such a nightmare with the living wage etc. See Marx's 'wage slavery' etc.  

     

    Oh and yet another edit. A lot of folk find the aggressive nature of Marxism quote off-putting and I can empathise with that - Bertrand Russell's "The Case for Socialism" is a MUCH better read for a lot of folk, so I'd recommend you give it a shot! 

    Snap. 1976.

     

    Thatcher's children - us - have historically been one of the biggest and consistent supporters of Scottish independence.

     

    I'm pleased to say that generation devo are topping that though!

     

    I'm one of Blair's bairns - needless to say most of us grew up having little time for Labour or Tory! 

    Edited by NorthernRab
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    Posted
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold in winter and dry and very warm in summer
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.

    Do you think that there's necessarily an objective "human nature"? It's a massive topic of course, but while I've always "looked after myself", I find it almost impossible to do so when it's to the detriment of others. I certainly could never sit on millions of pounds, it would drive me mad.

    Can you define what 'objective' means in the above context? I'm struggling to follow...

    As I've mentioned before (we are neither wholly collective or individualistic) I believe we look after ourselves, close friends and family primarily.

    The rest is secondary, although, still important.

    I couldn't sit on millions if I hadn't looked after my family by making them comfortable. I couldn't feel good if my friends were going through hard times, I'd help them.

    I couldn't enjoy the money if I wasn't ploughing say 10/20% of my deposible income on a charity, more importantly dedicating say 1 night a week to do speeches, attend events and even volunteer for them.

    After I'd fulfilled those things then yes I could sit on lots of money no problem.

    I genuinely wouldn't bother me if I spent 10k in a club, Ferrari's, substances and the attention you'd get from others ie people wanting to party with you and/or girls joining our group etc etc.

    None of this will happen, 99% sure.

    Still, hypothetically I'd happily spend my money in anyway that makes me happy even better would be spending my money to make others happy too. My kids, my friends, my family. I'd also like to help the 'community' ie volunteering and funding worthwhile causes.

    I'd actually rather donate my time to a charity rather than money (probably both) as it's rather easy for rich people to chuck a bunch of money at something and feel all high and mighty.

    So you'd never do 'extravagant' things?

    What do you believe our purpose is then?

    I frankly, do not know what our purpose is and therefore every (well most) decisions I make will be with the intention of making myself happier. Everyone wants to live in a prosperous society but I'd argue most people care far more about their job status, their income, their family, their pension prospects blah blah when compared with the UK level of unemployment, UK average salary etc.

    I'm not saying they don't care, just when it comes down to it, they care more about their own 'bubble' if you will

    Edited by SW Saltire
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