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Posted
  • Location: Aberdeen
  • Location: Aberdeen

    I'm not sure what the big issue is with having the UK flag as a backdrop when you are campaigning for a party to represent the UK in a UK Parliament? I wouldn't have any objections about seeing any or all of the parties standing in front of a Saltire while campaigning for Holyrood.

    I guess some may find it offensive but it is the flag of the UK and we live in the UK (currently at least). If they all adopt the flag as part of the campaign does it really matter? The nature of the flag is that it includes all the home nations (except for Wales possibly?)

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    And that ignorant, offensive, rant sums up exactly why the YES campaign failed  

    Good god. What a load of boarish spiteful bile from bad losers has been posted during the night. I actually dread to think how Scotland would be run if this is representative of how the yes vote behav

    I'm disappointed in the lack of grace shown by some across the net in accepting this No vote. A complete lack of any empathy and understanding as to why fellow Scots didn't vote Yes.   I personally

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    Posted
  • Location: Ancrum
  • Weather Preferences: HOT SUNSHINE!
  • Location: Ancrum

    I think the union jack is supposed to emphasise (gawd I canny spell that at this time of the morning!) the union. I don't think it's nationalism, I think it's just us who are starting to get paranoid.

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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL

    I'm not sure what the big issue is with having the UK flag as a backdrop when you are campaigning for a party to represent the UK in a UK Parliament? I wouldn't have any objections about seeing any or all of the parties standing in front of a Saltire while campaigning for Holyrood.

    I guess some may find it offensive but it is the flag of the UK and we live in the UK (currently at least). If they all adopt the flag as part of the campaign does it really matter? The nature of the flag is that it includes all the home nations (except for Wales possibly?)

    The flag is not offensive and there is nothing wrong with them using it. It the hypocrisy of the Unionists that matter.

     

    The SNP are constantly told nationalism is dangerous and bad, look at the Balkans the Unionists say etc... Yet, it is ok for British Nationalists to dress themselves up in a flag but but bad when Scots Nats do it.

     

    That's the issue.

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    Posted
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie
  • Weather Preferences: Cold and snowy or warm and dry
  • Location: Tullynessle/Inverurie

    Incidentally, a more realistic sounding canvass tonight in my own village which was just over 60% No in the referendum, not sure the overall tallies but somewhere around 30-40% of the sample voting SNP, hard to tell where the unionist vote was going as most of the people decidedly going somewhere else were refusals but definitely more opposition than last night, which felt more like SNP conference than a canvass session  :laugh: Overall that's pretty much bang in line with our target numbers though, so certainly not a bad session by any means, not sure I've had one of those so far this campaign other than occasionally getting a lot of folk out if door knocking through the day.

     

    Well I participated in my very first canvassing session in my village last night. I didn't do the door-knocking as such, I took over the job of handing out and collecting the survey cards for those more experienced/confident at the door-knocking. I think there were 10 of us (including the SNP candidate), plus a certain Mr James Naughtie and two sound recordists from Radio4 (I'd no idea they were coming). Seemed a fairly positive session in terms of returns. Even although I wasn't really looking at the cards as they were returned, more often than not they were returned with a "that's another 2 for us" or something similar. I do believe that where we were was the 'better' end of the village in terms of it's normal leanings (by the sounds of it I live in the 'depressingly bad' end, at least as far as the Indy Ref canvassing went, so maybe I need to get working on the neighbors).

     

    I think the union jack is supposed to emphasise (gawd I canny spell that at this time of the morning!) the union. I don't think it's nationalism, I think it's just us who are starting to get paranoid.

     

    I think you could be right. That probably stems from occasions in the past where it definitely has been used to represent 'the union', but not convinced that is the reasoning behind it currently. On the other-hand I think SS could have a point. In the past you were much more likely to see the party leaders with a blue/red/yellow backdrop behind them and some sort of party logo. The use of the Union Flag (being pedantic - not 'Jack') does appear to have become more prevalent. I don't find it 'offensive' but neither does it instill any patriotism in me. Anyway, I don't think SS was saying people might find it offensive, only that it's strange that they are using nationalistic symbology whilst at the same time decrying nationalism north of the border.

    Edited by Ravelin
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    Posted
  • Location: Ancrum
  • Weather Preferences: HOT SUNSHINE!
  • Location: Ancrum

    Yea I understand that too. It's not my flag and never has been so I don't pay any attention to it anyway. And I never ever look at tory or labour posters because their smug smarmy faces get me ratty. LOL

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    I'm not sure what the big issue is with having the UK flag as a backdrop when you are campaigning for a party to represent the UK in a UK Parliament? I wouldn't have any objections about seeing any or all of the parties standing in front of a Saltire while campaigning for Holyrood.

    I guess some may find it offensive but it is the flag of the UK and we live in the UK (currently at least). If they all adopt the flag as part of the campaign does it really matter? The nature of the flag is that it includes all the home nations (except for Wales possibly?)

     

    I can understand your logic about it being a UK election for a UK parliament, but did they use the EU flag when we were electing representatives to the EU? Maybe all the main parties used EU flags at that time, I genuinely can't remember :)

     

    By its very definition the Union Flag is a symbol of unionism, of British nationalism, it is after all, the "national flag of the UK" to quote many sources I found when I searched on Google. If you wave the national flag of a country then clearly you are a nationalist for that country. Political parties have their own colours and symbols to identify themselves, they don't need to drape themselves in national flags unless they are nationalists.

     

    Why not have all the flags of the countries of the UK together? Why have a flag which is going to put off a lot of people in Scotland when the issue can be neatly sidestepped by having all of the flags? Why have a flag which also supposedly represents Ireland, but not Wales? Very strange things flags :D

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    Posted
  • Location: Aberdeen
  • Location: Aberdeen

    I can understand your logic about it being a UK election for a UK parliament, but did they use the EU flag when we were electing representatives to the EU? Maybe all the main parties used EU flags at that time, I genuinely can't remember :)

     

    By its very definition the Union Flag is a symbol of unionism, of British nationalism, it is after all, the "national flag of the UK" to quote many sources I found when I searched on Google. If you wave the national flag of a country then clearly you are a nationalist for that country. Political parties have their own colours and symbols to identify themselves, they don't need to drape themselves in national flags unless they are nationalists.

     

    Why not have all the flags of the countries of the UK together? Why have a flag which is going to put off a lot of people in Scotland when the issue can be neatly sidestepped by having all of the flags? Why have a flag which also supposedly represents Ireland, but not Wales? Very strange things flags :D

    Surely the whole point of the Union Flag is that it is meant to represent all the nation's included in the Union? (Even if the Welsh flag is not incorporated - I guess the dragon may have looked out of place!)

    I just really don't see it being a big issue that we need to criticise UK politicians for standing in front of a UK flag. Coming from NI I am acutely aware that flags have symbolism but it is still possible to be a UK representative and actually want and campaign for good things for your constituency and Scotland.

    I would not care if my local MP spoke in front of an Aberdeen flag, a Saltire, a Union Flag, an EU flag or a flag for Planet Earth. I also wouldn't choose to criticise them for it. Of course if they stood in front of a KKK flag, swastika etc. that would be a very different issue.

    I just think there are more important things than flag waving or commenting on flag waving. I am delighted Scotland has chosen to remain part of the Union but I have never felt the need to wave a flag unless I'm supporting GB&Ni at a sporting event. Symbols are fine it is just they are often associated with negative connotations. The Flag of St George is a fine example of an emblem that has been hijacked. There should be nothing wrong with standing in front of any national flag if you are representing that nation and indeed wanting to represent the people of that nation.

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    Surely the whole point of the Union Flag is that it is meant to represent all the nation's included in the Union? (Even if the Welsh flag is not incorporated - I guess the dragon may have looked out of place!)

    I just really don't see it being a big issue that we need to criticise UK politicians for standing in front of a UK flag. Coming from NI I am acutely aware that flags have symbolism but it is still possible to be a UK representative and actually want and campaign for good things for your constituency and Scotland.

    I would not care if my local MP spoke in front of an Aberdeen flag, a Saltire, a Union Flag, an EU flag or a flag for Planet Earth. I also wouldn't choose to criticise them for it. Of course if they stood in front of a KKK flag, swastika etc. that would be a very different issue.

    I just think there are more important things than flag waving or commenting on flag waving. I am delighted Scotland has chosen to remain part of the Union but I have never felt the need to wave a flag unless I'm supporting GB&Ni at a sporting event. Symbols are fine it is just they are often associated with negative connotations. The Flag of St George is a fine example of an emblem that has been hijacked. There should be nothing wrong with standing in front of any national flag if you are representing that nation and indeed wanting to represent the people of that nation.

     

    I wasn't necessarily criticising, merely repeating SS's point that they're British nationalists :)

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    Posted
  • Location: Aberdeen
  • Location: Aberdeen

    That's okay, I was more verbalising general thoughts about flags and such things. Technically the 3 main UK parties are British Nationalists and Unionists in the same way as the SNP are Scottish Nationalists and Separatists but in the end they are just names/labels. In this election, in theory at least, as there are no major constitutional issues being tabled, then other policies should take precedence and the use or significance of flags is just somewhat of a sideshow.

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    That's okay, I was more verbalising general thoughts about flags and such things. Technically the 3 main UK parties are British Nationalists and Unionists in the same way as the SNP are Scottish Nationalists and Separatists but in the end they are just names/labels. In this election, in theory at least, as there are no major constitutional issues being tabled, then other policies should take precedence and the use or significance of flags is just somewhat of a sideshow.

     

    I suppose it's a sad state of affairs that all we are discussing is the symbolism or otherwise of flags. We should be ranting on about different policies from the main parties, but there's not much to choose between the main UK parties.

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    If the SNP are separatists, then so is any UK party which wants the UK to be an independent, sovereign state not in direct union with another country such as France. This makes the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems also separatist.

     

    In fact the UK, by continuing to occupy northern Ireland, is separating it from Eire. That occupation was the cause of so much division and strife. If it hadn't done that and just walked away from the whole of Ireland when Eire wanted independence, we wouldn't have had the troubles, the IRA and the walls which divide communities to this day.

     

    As for the flags...

     

    I was simply noting the increasing degree of nationalism being displayed by UK parties. Old 'international socialist' Labour stayed well away from the union flag in party symbolism. Tony introduced the union flag to Labour as he was right-wing authoritarian and nationalist, i.e. a Tory. Ed seems to have taken this to the max. Increasingly gone is the simple red + rose of (economic) socialism accompanied by the yellow of social liberalism. Instead, this is replaced by the blue of centre-right conservatism with associated national flag. We even went through a red to blue purplish transitory stage last year.

     

    The reason is simple; Labour has pretty much lost Scotland and is now chasing the same centre-right swing voters that the Tories and UKIP are. Hence all three are presenting similar, nationalistic symbolism.

     

    Oh, and the SNP are supporters of Scotland being a member of the EU and UN, hence are unionists. The UK parties are against this, hence separatists.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I suppose it's a sad state of affairs that all we are discussing is the symbolism or otherwise of flags. 

     

    It's just an interest of mine hence I waffle on about it.

     

    It is important though, but only as a reflection of party stance changes. Impact on voter minds is more subtle.

     

    As noted, Labour were once red + rose + yellow = centre-left economic socialist, social liberal. They are now centre-right economic authoritarian (socially) and nationalist. This transition has been reflected in the symbolism they employ.

     

    I've just watched the transition with interest.

     

    And note I don't think Labour are using the union flag in a response to the SNP / the Scottish independence movement. No, that would actually hurt them in Scotland. The union flag is highly offensive to a large section of the electorate traditionally, as anyone from the west coast will tell you. No, it's mainly done to take the fight to UKIP and the Tories on their own ground.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold in winter and dry and very warm in summer
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.

    A separatist party surely wants to separate from something...

    What do Con, Lab or Lib want to separate from?

    Rather simplistic on Ireland. A majority of people want to stay part of the UK in NI, surely we should respect that?

    I realise the whole event of the 70/80/90s was traumatic and I believe mistakes were made on both sides, many lives were lost unnecessarily.

    N.B. Will have no access up the internet until tea-time so won't be able to respond to your (anticipated) reply :)

    Edited by SW Saltire
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    A separatist party surely wants to separate from something...

    What do Con, Lab or Lib want to separate from?

    Rather simplistic on Ireland. A majority of people want to stay part of the UK in NI, surely we should respect that?

    I realise the whole event of the 70/80/90s was traumatic and I believe mistakes were made on both sides, many lives were lost unnecessarily.

    N.B. Will have no access up the internet until tea-time so won't be able to respond to your (anticipated) reply :)

     

    Or remain separated from.

     

    Tories don't support a direct union with France for example. Why do they want to remain separate? Do they not like my wife and her people or something?

     

    ---

     

    Sorry, but the UK is occupying a bit of Eire. Look at a map. 

     

    You can't just move lots of your own people to a region of another country then claim its yours because the local populace want that. Should expat areas of Spain get a vote on becoming part of the UK?

     

    I imagine you don't support Glasgow, Dundee and the other areas which voted yes forming an embryonic independent Scotland (employing the same logic) any more than you'd support bits of Scotland being partitioned to remain in the UK if they voted No while Scotland voted Yes to indy.

     

    Eire joined the union as Ireland. It should have been allowed to leave as Ireland and not militarily partitioned leading to a nearly a century of conflict. That's what partitioning does.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: glasgow
  • Weather Preferences: snowy winters hot summers
  • Location: glasgow

    A separatist party surely wants to separate from something...

    What do Con, Lab or Lib want to separate from?

    Rather simplistic on Ireland. A majority of people want to stay part of the UK in NI, surely we should respect that?

    I realise the whole event of the 70/80/90s was traumatic and I believe mistakes were made on both sides, many lives were lost unnecessarily.

    N.B. Will have no access up the internet until tea-time so won't be able to respond to your (anticipated) reply :)

    i know what you mean sw but thats not true.

     

    The uk ruled ireland as a single nation , there were no northern irish/republic irish seats in the 1918 uk general election , just irish seats.

     

    Further  , when they partitioned ireland it wasnt even done on  a democratic basis as first they offered the unionists 9 counties ulster , and the unionists said no as they couldnt hold it being in a minority , they then gave them 6 counties , but only had a majority in 4. So technically , if you look at it from a so called democratic point of view based on a unionist majority , only 4 counties should be part of the uk today , two of them won by the unionists on a split of the nationalist vote.

     

    Should read up on it pal , honestly fascinating stuff and blows many of the unionist , nationalist and british mythology right oot the windae.

     

    Did you know it was the irish presbyterians that introduced republicanism ?Or that sinn fein were a pro monarchist party? Or the pope in rome twice supported invasions of ireland?

     

    I will leave it there except to say i agree we should leave irish politics in ireland , but study and learn from our friends in irelands mistakes.

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    Posted
  • Location: Aberdeen
  • Location: Aberdeen

    We probably should leave it in Ireland but one poster seems to keep bringing it up for some reason. As for occupied, perhaps in the opinion of some but not the majority of people in NI nor international law as far as I am aware.

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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL

    Anyhow, bringing us back on topic.

     

    My mate lives in Meigle and said there was a stand set up in the village square by activists with Union flags urging voters to vote Tory by tactical voting to try and oust Pete Wishart. So what?, you might say. However, one of the activists was a known Labour guy from Dundee!!. Yes, Labour urging voters to choose Tory.

     

    Anyhow, my mate, got out his largest saltire and put it up on there garden wall across from them. They disappeared shortly after when the Labour guy had been rumbled.

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    Posted
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL
  • Location: Carryduff, County Down 420ft ASL

    As for occupied, perhaps in the opinion of some but not the majority of people in NI nor international law as far as I am aware.

    As someone who attends a Presbyterian Church, even i would find it hard to call the displacement of native Irish people by planted Scots as something other than occupation. It defines what it is. However, it happened 300 odd years ago and we have to deal with things as they are now.

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    Posted
  • Location: Ancrum
  • Weather Preferences: HOT SUNSHINE!
  • Location: Ancrum

    The politics and history of Ireland are even more ironic and tragic than our own - nobody knows that better than I do as I was brought up on stories of the Famine.... but there's no point in going over it because the two sides will never meet in a million years. But we all need to be aware of how the UK govt operates and what their track record is.

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    Posted
  • Location: Aberdeen
  • Location: Aberdeen

    As someone who attends a Presbyterian Church, even i would find it hard to call the displacement of native Irish people by planted Scots as something other than occupation. It defines what it is. However, it happened 300 odd years ago and we have to deal with things as they are now.

    Good points, and I don't think I would disagree with any of that. And as you said it was 300 years ago and we have to deal with the here and now.

    On a different topic. Any ideas or thoughts about how things might go in the "opposition debate" tonight?

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    Posted
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)
  • Weather Preferences: Wind driven falling snow
  • Location: Calgary, Canada (1230m asl)

    Since it seems to be a fairly quiet news day I thought I'd make up some election winning policies of my own (yes, boredom has set in, the kids are back home and I'm on holiday until Saturday). Here's the start of it:

     

    Top of the list would be to vastly reduce the estimated £85bn paid out in corporate welfare every year, let's cut it in half to £42.5bn. Right-wingers love free markets after all :D

     

    The £42.5bn left-over to spend on corporate welfare will be focussed on start-ups only as that's where the real growth is in business. Definitely no point giving money to the likes of Amazon, Google, Vodafone, etc. who are happy enough to take the handouts and subsidies but who don't pay much tax in return.

     

    We'll then scrap all tax on fuel paid for by the £42.5bn above, which will replace some of the corporate welfare lost to big business but more importantly inject a lot of cash straight into the public's pockets. Along the way we'll have to introduce laws which state that all new cars in the UK must have a minimum fuel consumption of 75mpg, with relevant fuel consumption mimima imposed on all other vehicles (I have no idea what these would be so I'll leave that part fuzzy for now).

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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    On a different topic. Any ideas or thoughts about how things might go in the "opposition debate" tonight?

     

    Nicola I guess is much in the same position she was in last time.

     

    Her only rival is Ed. However, he's not really that at all. If we take polls as presenting a reasonably accurate picture, then Ed really can't win anyone back from the SNP. All he can maybe hope for is some tactical voting to help save Labour a few seats (There is a big problem with that though for unionists as talked about on here before, i.e. the damage it does to Con). If he tries to attack Nicola, then, unpopular as he is in Scotland, he risks driving a few more Lab to SNP. After all, Nicola has 71% satisfied in Scotland at the moment!

     

    I think these two will once again not attack each other, but mainly have occasional harsh words for Con and Lib, but focus on their own plans more. 

     

    Nicola can ignore Farage. He seems to have single handedly killed what small UKIP vote there is in Scotland following the last debate. Down to 1.4% on average when they were getting 4% or so before.

     

    Wood and Bennet are allies of Sturgeon of course.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Aberdeen
  • Location: Aberdeen

    Nicola I guess is much in the same position she was in last time.

    Her only rival is Ed. However, he's not really that at all. If we take polls as presenting a reasonably accurate picture, then Ed really can't win anyone back from the SNP. All he can maybe hope for is some tactical voting to help save Labour a few seats (There is a big problem with that though for unionists as talked about on here before, i.e. the damage it does to Con). If he tries to attack Nicola, then, unpopular as he is in Scotland, he risks driving a few more Lab to SNP. After all, Nicola has 72% satisfied in Scotland at the moment!

    I think these two will once again not attack each other, but mainly have occasional harsh words for Con and Lib, but focus on their own plans more.

    Nicola can ignore Farage. He seems to have single handedly killed what small UKIP vote there is in Scotland following the last debate. Down to 1.4% on average when they were getting 4% or so before.

    Wood and Bennet are allies of Sturgeon of course.

    Yes, it will be very interesting to see what happens. Will Nicola, Wood and Bennet all round on Ed as "more of the same" but a different colour or will they all go for the missing Dave and Nick? I'm not quite sure what to expect.

    I know some will disagree but I see UKIP as something of an irrelevance in Scotland (or an embarrassment in Coburn's case) and Nigel seems to like to taunt Nicola Sturgeon to gain support south of the border.

    Edited by doctormog
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    Posted
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl
  • Location: Near Lauder, SE Scotland, 175 m asl

    I know some will disagree but I see UKIP as something of an irrelevance in Scotland (or an embarrassment in Coburn's case) and Nigel seems to like to taunt Nicola Sturgeon to gain support south of the border.

     

    I'd agree.

     

    I couldn't help but wonder if Nigel was doing his best to help Sturgeon at the last debate!

     

    --

     

    As an aside, we've not had MORI poll for a while. January in fact.

     

    This is today's subset for Scotland of the UK poll for what it's worth (123 original base which is on the larger side for a subsample).

     

    52% SNP

    19% Con

    16% Lab

    8% Green

    4% Lib

    0% UKIP

     

    5% UK-wide.

     

    Clearly Lab too low, a bit too much for the Greens... All within normal big variance for subsamples, but Con ahead of Lab in Scottish subsamples is increasingly frequent, which shows how far they've fallen.

    Edited by scottish skier
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    Posted
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.
  • Weather Preferences: Snow and cold in winter and dry and very warm in summer
  • Location: Dumfries, South West Scotland.

    Or remain separated from.

     

    Tories don't support a direct union with France for example. Why do they want to remain separate? Do they not like my wife and her

    people or something?

     

    ---

     

    Sorry, but the UK is occupying a bit of Eire. Look at a map. 

     

    You can't just move lots of your own people to a region of another country then claim its yours because the local populace want that. Should expat areas of Spain get a vote on becoming part of the UK?

     

    I imagine you don't support Glasgow, Dundee and the other areas which voted yes forming an embryonic independent Scotland (employing the same logic) any more than you'd support bits of Scotland being partitioned to remain in the UK if they voted No while Scotland voted Yes to indy.

     

    Eire joined the union as Ireland. It should have been allowed to leave as Ireland and not militarily partitioned leading to a nearly a century of conflict. That's what partitioning does.

    Sorry, I don't really get what you mean.

    The Conservatives are separatists since they don't advocate a union with every other country on the planet?

    France, China, USA etc....

    That makes no sense.

    When did they become separatists? Since I presume you wouldn't call the country which oversaw the commonwealth at the height of that era separatist....

    A strange one.

    On Ireland, yes Balmaha, MS et al I take your point. I'm not claiming to be an expert and I tried to keep my comments neutral.

    Ok, you can harp back to bygone days (I hope some of those days are firmly in the past*) and blame the UK but ultimately in the here and now you have Northern Ireland which does want to remain part of the UK.

    * - I am under the impression that the demographics are changing and at some point soon we'll have a 50/50 situation on whether NI will rejoin the Republic or to stay.

    Perhaps I'm wrong on this...

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      UK Storm and Severe Convective Forecast

      UK Severe Convective & Storm Forecast - Issued 2021-05-15 09:37:16 Valid: 15/05/2021 0600 - 16/05/2021 0600 THUNDERSTORM WATCH - SAT 15TH MAY 2021 Click here for the full forecast

      Nick F
      Nick F
      Latest weather updates from Netweather
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